First 500yds with 6.5CM

[Way2slow]

Finally got a load close enough to try the 6.5 Creedmoor at 500yds.  While its not great, it did ok, but at least I have a starting point.  The red center on the target is 2" in diameter.

The hole just below the 9 was one where I was just getting it on paper.  The thing shot a lot flatter than I expected.  I first dialed in 11 MOA shooting at the center of a 5' tall, white back drop and didn't get in on paper.  Dropped it to 8 MOA and barely hit the top of it. Went to 6 MOA and made the hole just below the 9.  Made a windage and elevation adjustment and shot the three shot triangle in the second ring.  Went down one click and shot the three across in the first ring.  That was all of that load I had left and switched to a lighter load I was testing and shot the on the lower right.  I had one bullet left and shot it at 100 just to make sure the scope dialed back to zero, and it did.  I had used up most of my bullets testing loads and getting it dialed in at 400 yards and figured I would just give 500 a try with the last few I had.

2 1/4" groups ain't really something to brag about but for it's initial try at 500 yds, I thinks that's pretty good.  I've tried five powders and couple dozen different loads to get to there.  Plus the wind was bouncing things around a little so that didn't help.   I'm shooting for 1 1/2" groups and no more than 2" at 500.  That's better than a lot of rifles will shoot at 100.

[jimmyjoe]

1 hour ago, Way2slow said:

2 1/4" groups ain't really something to brag about but for it's initial try at 500 yds, I thinks that's pretty good. 

 

   At 500 yards? Yeah, I think it's pretty good, too! In fact, I think it's real good!   ??    jj

[Tatsu Dave]

What are you using for a rest? Pretty good group if there was some wind.

[DaubsNU1]

@ 500 yards...I got two things to say....

 

1. WOW!

2. Stop while you are ahead

 

That is all. 

[Way2slow]

The wind wasn't real bad, 3-5 mph at about a 60 degree angle coming from my back

My rest was the Caldwell Rock BR Competition for the front and a Protektor Rabbit Ear Rear Shooting Rest with Heavy Bottom for the rear, shooting off a heavy wooden table.

The claims are the 6.5CM is more accurate than a 260.  Well, my 260 consistently shoots 1 1\2" groups at 500 yards, sometimes when the planets are in perfect alignment, it will pop a loose 1" group and very rarely shoots larger than a 2". 

The 260 has a 20" Shilen #7 lite varmint carbon steel barrel on a Model 7 blue printed action and factory stock, with the ugly camo on it.  The stock however has been highly modified, even has an aluminum V-Bedding block with pillars in it.  However, it will regularly shoot one hole five shot groups and this 6.5 has never done that yet.  That's at 100 yards. Both have select match grade barrels, just one is CS and one is SS.  Both rifles shoot good enough I have to use at least 200 yards for load development so I can get enough spread to see how they are shooting.  That's why I normally use 400 yards for load development once I'm getting close.

This 6.5CM has a 26" Shilen #7 heavy varmint stainless steel barrel on a blue printed Model 700 action in a Magpul Hunter stock that has been skim bedded .  I tried to use the factory composite stock but the barrel is so heavy, it collapses the forend against it when you set it on the rest.

So far I'm not really convinced that Magpul stock is going to work.  I keep getting those off shots, not really flyiers per say but in a five shot group it will put two or three bullets in the same hole, and then throw one out, sometimes as much as a 1/2".  Usually when I get this, the bedding is off in the stock and I can re-bed the action and it fixes it.  I've tried that with this stock and it didn't help.  I'm think about reinforcing the factory composite stock and try it to see if I still get the same results.

 

The 260 loves 4831SC, the 6.5CM hates it. 

The 260 won't group RL17 at all, and that's the best powder I've tried in the 6.5CM.  44.5gr of RL17 is what I was shooting the top two groups with.  43.0 was that lone lower group.

 

[Way2slow]

It's definitely starting to look more promising.  Went early this morning before the winds started to start on load development with new bolt in the rifle.  Started off at 38 grains of H4350 and went up 1/2 grain increments to 43 grains pushing some 140ELD-M bullets, shooting at 400 yards.  I was getting a little disappointed at first, but when I shot the 41 grain, I thought what the heck, where did they go.  I drove down to the target (I can normally see them with the scope) to see what happened to them.  All five were there, in a tight little 1/2" group.  Went back and shot the 41.5 grain loads, this time they were in just a touch over 1/2" where one bullet went out slightly.  Shot the 42 grain loads and they were just under 1" and it opened up a little more after that.  Tried some IMR 4350 with some 143 ELD-x loads and some Reloader 17 but most of those were on the ugly side of 2 - 2 1/4".  Also tried the Muzzle brake, total waste, they were about three inches low and all over the place.

So, it's looks like I have a pretty good starting point to start tweeking from between40.5 and 41.5 grains.  

I went in my 2500HD and left my tripod for Chrony in my Toyota that I normally go in, so I couldn't get any load data.  Also took my 260, but should have had  my glasses on,  I got there and had the bullets for the 270.

[NHBull]

Outstanding marksmanship!

 

Heck, I would need binoculars just to acquire a target at 500.

 

.....I do miss those days

 

[Way2slow]

I hate shooting 100 yards, about the only time I do is just to get a quick idea of how a load is going to work and a sand pit that's only a few miles from my house I can go do quick checks at is only 110 yards max.  I have to drive 17 miles to where I can shoot up to 500 yards.   Shooting little bitty groups at 100 yards don't show you a whole lot.  Put them out there at 400 yards and you get a much more realistic picture of how they perform.  To me, 400 yards is just a comfortable, and easy distance to shoot and the loads still hold a good group at that distance.  500 and beyond, the groups don't seem to hold together as consistently as they do at 400.  My granddaughter feels the same way.  She loves to shoot 400 yards but hates to shoot 500.  That extra 100 yards just seems to do strange things to bullets.

Now, I do sight in and zero my scopes at 100 yards and set the turrets on the scopes at "0" for 100 yards.  I keep a little dope sheet on the scope for the turret settings at 100 increments out to 500 yards.  I can dial in the range I want to shoot and go back to zero, and know where it's at.  Although, most of my scopes are FFP and have MOA or MRAD reticles  so I can just do a quick range calculation and hold over if I need to make a quick shot.

[NHBull]

Short of setting targets on a golf course or highway, I don't think I could find 500 yards without picking up some serious vertical.  Since my days of hunting have ended 100 yards is where everything is sighted.......I so miss the days of the M82?

[Tatsu Dave]

On 10/8/2020 at 12:48 PM, Way2slow said:

The wind wasn't real bad, 3-5 mph at about a 60 degree angle coming from my back

My rest was the Caldwell Rock BR Competition for the front and a Protektor Rabbit Ear Rear Shooting Rest with Heavy Bottom for the rear, shooting off a heavy wooden table.

The claims are the 6.5CM is more accurate than a 260.  Well, my 260 consistently shoots 1 1\2" groups at 500 yards, sometimes when the planets are in perfect alignment, it will pop a loose 1" group and very rarely shoots larger than a 2". 

The 260 has a 20" Shilen #7 lite varmint carbon steel barrel on a Model 7 blue printed action and factory stock, with the ugly camo on it.  The stock however has been highly modified, even has an aluminum V-Bedding block with pillars in it.  However, it will regularly shoot one hole five shot groups and this 6.5 has never done that yet.  That's at 100 yards. Both have select match grade barrels, just one is CS and one is SS.  Both rifles shoot good enough I have to use at least 200 yards for load development so I can get enough spread to see how they are shooting.  That's why I normally use 400 yards for load development once I'm getting close.

This 6.5CM has a 26" Shilen #7 heavy varmint stainless steel barrel on a blue printed Model 700 action in a Magpul Hunter stock that has been skim bedded .  I tried to use the factory composite stock but the barrel is so heavy, it collapses the forend against it when you set it on the rest.

So far I'm not really convinced that Magpul stock is going to work.  I keep getting those off shots, not really flyiers per say but in a five shot group it will put two or three bullets in the same hole, and then throw one out, sometimes as much as a 1/2".  Usually when I get this, the bedding is off in the stock and I can re-bed the action and it fixes it.  I've tried that with this stock and it didn't help.  I'm think about reinforcing the factory composite stock and try it to see if I still get the same results.

 

The 260 loves 4831SC, the 6.5CM hates it. 

The 260 won't group RL17 at all, and that's the best powder I've tried in the 6.5CM.  44.5gr of RL17 is what I was shooting the top two groups with.  43.0 was that lone lower group.

 

We both use the same set-up and have for years, on a good heavy well anchored table it just becomes you and the wind to worry about. Like to shoot early when wind is calmest and sun is behind me lighting up the target. Don't agree that one cartridge is more accurate than another, simply one rifle is better set-up, or has the better barrel, more concentric ammo, better action, more dialed in load.....well you get where I'm coming from  I'm considering going 260AI when its time to bump the chamber to clean up throat errosion, but I've gotten so into the 7mm-08's that I'm always trying to squeeze more accuracy out and now I've built a real long range set-up that's been a lot of fun to shoot. Reminds me of a local BR gun I put together and then couldn't lay it down it was so much fun. Good Shooting Dave

[Way2slow]

Closes thing I've come to 7-08 is the brass I shoot in my 260.  Since me and my granddaughter are shooting 260's, and I only resize with a .001" shoulder bump, to keep from getting the two mixed up, I load 260 brass for hers and 7mm-08 for mine.  308 is too short and necking down that much would require neck turning.

Back in the late 60's when I bought my 6mm, I looked at the 7-08 and I picked the 6mm over it, and then bought a 7mm Mag for those pipe line shots I used to hunt on back then.  That one will reach out touch you. 

[Way2slow]

Why I do load development at 400 yards and not 100.

After my last trip, I loaded up five different loads, starting a 1 grain below what should be best and went to 1 grain above what should be best. 

Instead of driving to the range, I decided I would try the sand pit closer to the house, just shooting off the tool box in the truck at 100yds like I normally do for quick load checks.  A waste of time and five bullets.

First five shots from a cold, clean barrel.  I figured this would put a little fouling in the barrel and normalize the temp for when I got to where I was really wanting to test.

White center is 1/2" black center is 1".  Quit and came home after that.

The lower right was the very first shot and they tightened up from there.

[WRB]

This is my 1st reply on shooting because it’s been over 40 years since doing any bench work.

Excellent group at 400 yards!

when I deer hunted at long range used 2 rifles; Winchester model 70 300 mag and Remington model 700 7mm mag.

The 300 mag used 165 boat tail bullets 4130 powderascI recall compression  load push 4000 FPS. 

700 mm 150 boat tail same powder. 

I would group 5 rounds 2.5” above the center and both rifles could cut center 1.25 groups at 500 yards.

Hunting conditions hitting pie plate off hand at 500 yards was all that was needed.

Tom

[Way2slow]

Wait another 20 years and see how many pie plates you can hit freehand at 500yds.

A pie plate at 300 is about my max these days and a coke can at 100.

With this 6.5 CM I've built, I'm not even sure I could hold it up long enough to even shoot it free hand, that sucker is Heaavvyy.  They call the barrel on it a #7 heavy varmint.  I think the #7 must stand for how many pounds the barrel weighs.  Add a 23oz scope, the action and stock and it's a load to carry from the house to the truck.  However, I'm getting so I feel better about it each load I check.  Pretty soon I'm gonna be trying for the one inch group at 500 yards.  Trying to save on bullets, I shot it Friday morning at 400, shooting three shot groups and between 40.5 and 42 grains with 140ELD-M's they were all between 5/8 and 1 inch, so that didn't help much for getting the perfect load dialed in.  The mirage was terrible that morning and that didn't do much for shooting tight groups. Somewhere around 41.5 is where it's seems to like.

 

[WRB]

I couldn’t hit a pie plate today shooting from bench rest! 
You owe it to the game to be able to kill it cleanly at whatever range you shoot.

I used a 3x9 Leupold  duplex back in the day and used the center post at 9 power before finding the cross hairs at long range. If the deer body didn’t’t fit between the post and cross hair it’s too far away.

Didn’t have built in scope range finder for yardage in the 60’s!

Thinking back we usually had time and clearance to shoot sitting not off hand using the rifle strap to steady movements.

Tom

[Way2slow]

I think the 6.5 130 and 140 grain bullets would be doable at 500 yard on a white tail deer but about the only thing I would shoot at that range is a coyote.  Those I would try at 1,000.

If I can't get a good, clean head shot at a deer, I'm not going to shoot it and 200 yards is about the max I've done that.  I watch a lot more deer walk by than I shoot, that I could have easily shot if I wanted to make a body shot  About 95% of the deer I have killed in the past 50 years have been less than 100 yards.

If I was going to be trying shots on any game animal past 300 yards, it would probably be with my 7mm Mag. and since I don't go out West for pronghorns and white tail deer, mostly small ones at that, is all we have around here, the 7mm Mag hasn't been used in a long time.

 

Actually, about then is when Redfield first came out with their Accu-Range scopes

I actually liked the center post scopes, I used a Redfield wide view with it on one rifle up until a couple years ago until I replaced it with one of the newer FFP MOA retical scopes

[WRB]

Had to look up the 6.5CM cartridge turns out to newer round 6.5 Creedmore. Interest ballistics but not that fast but very accurate.

My ‘65 vintage factory 300 Winchester Mag was hotter round and faster but anything under 150 grain wasn’t stable. The recoil about 12 lbs plus  muzzle flash in low light made hunting a challenge at times. A scope with 4+ inches of eye relief was a must, you don’t want to seek up on the scope too close! The 7mm Remington Mag wasn’t as hot, less recoil but very effective at killing deer long range.

I hunted open wide deep canyons that required shooting 300 to 500 yards hunting trophy mule deer in the White mountain range in the 60’s.

Tom

[Way2slow]

If I was going to be hunting large deadly animals like moose, grizzly or brown bear, Then I would want something that carried a much heavier bullet than the 7mm Mag,  The 7mm with 150 gr bullets pack more punch than the 300 with 150 gr at 500 yards.  For me though, white tails, hogs and black bear are it.  I went with the 7mm Mag in 1969 after buying my 6mm.  They had recently installed a large pipeline through our area and there were a couple high voltage lines the power company had and those were great for being able to make extremely long shots.   My longest was 780 yards with the 7mm Mag.  We had quit hunting and gotten back to the vehicles parked up on a ridge when a large buck was standing where I had just left from.  Coming back to the vehicle I had counted my paces and knew the distance.  My friend commented "you think you are such a good shot, let me see you drop him" and I did.   Counting paces and figuring distances is something I have always done when walking, and that has made me pretty darn good at guessing the yardage on long shots.  

I also do a lot of long range practicing.  I've seen people try shots of several hundred yards that had never fired a rifle at that range and had no clue of the ballistics of their bullets.  Naturally all they usually do is waste a bullet.

[mram10us]

On 12/22/2020 at 5:22 AM, Way2slow said:

If I was going to be hunting large deadly animals like moose, grizzly or brown bear, Then I would want something that carried a much heavier bullet than the 7mm Mag,  The 7mm with 150 gr bullets pack more punch than the 300 with 150 gr at 500 yards.  For me though, white tails, hogs and black bear are it.  I went with the 7mm Mag in 1969 after buying my 6mm.  They had recently installed a large pipeline through our area and there were a couple high voltage lines the power company had and those were great for being able to make extremely long shots.   My longest was 780 yards with the 7mm Mag.  We had quit hunting and gotten back to the vehicles parked up on a ridge when a large buck was standing where I had just left from.  Coming back to the vehicle I had counted my paces and knew the distance.  My friend commented "you think you are such a good shot, let me see you drop him" and I did.   Counting paces and figuring distances is something I have always done when walking, and that has made me pretty darn good at guessing the yardage on long shots.  

I also do a lot of long range practicing.  I've seen people try shots of several hundred yards that had never fired a rifle at that range and had no clue of the ballistics of their bullets.  Naturally all they usually do is waste a bullet.

count paces for 780yds? did you verify with a rangefinder? cope gets real picky after 600 yds

[Way2slow]

 

Never had a need for a range finder.  I know may pace count, well enough that I taught land navigation for three years in the military that required going for miles and coming within a few yards of your objective. I know how to judge distances and know the ballistics of every rifle I shoot.  I don't make hale marry shots, I know what I'm doing and what the rifle is going to do out to the max distance I consider that bullet to be effective. 

Might be surprised at how good you get when you regularly practice something.