Why leader with braid?

[squishy_pants]

I just got a new MHF BC combo. I have 20lb braid on it. I’ll be using this combo for most of my fishing. I heard that you should get a fluorocarbon leader when using braid, so what type would you recommend? Thanks 

[MN Fisher]

SOME people say to us FC leaders - others will pick mono. Myself, I use copolymer - Yo-Zuri Hybrid - as leader material for my two braid rigs.

[jimmyjoe]

   Congratulations on your new combo!

   1) Use it awhile so as to decide whether you want to stay with the 20 lb. braid or jump to 40 or 50 lb. braid.

   2) Which braid BRAND is it?

   3) For which purposes/tactics will this be used, and for which purposes/tactics will it NOT be used?

   4) Which KNOT do you think you'll use if you want to use a leader?

   5) have you used braid before on a spinning setup?

 

   With just a little info, we'll get you set up with hundreds of pieces of different, conflicting advice!  ???   jj

[MickD]

If you are going to use it for surface some times, use mono since it won't sink like FC and ruin the action of some surface lures.  Some have gone to mono for everything to avoid the "foibles" of FC.  I use FC fly tippet material since it is a little stiffer and I think tougher , although I have no data.  Anyway, I don't have problems with it for non-surface techniques.  

 

As implied above, the big question is what knot are you going to use.  The FG is the best if you use micro guides AND can learn to tie it well, which could take some time and mistakes.  The most reliable, IMO, especially for a newbie, is the double uni.  I'ts a big knot, not suitable for small guides and 20 pound test leaders, but it's easy and hard to screw up.  

 

A really good  small knot is the Alberto, but it has its foibles too.  You must stick the tag end back out of the loop properly or it WILL fail, and a really hard setting of the wet knot will give the most reliability.  Look for the posts under "Alberto knot mystery failures solved?"  for more info.

[Hook2Jaw]

It's a sword every which way one could imagine, and it will cut you on occasion until it becomes second nature.  Research techniques, ask questions here, and practice what you learn.

 

I suggested braid to leader to you because you have a limited amount of rods and reels and if you're like many anglers, you're going to want to use multiple presentations if you're not at the point already.

 

My fine-tuned advice is to disregard every connection knot except the FG, or Fine Grip knot.  It is stronger than most, if not all other knots, and the slim nature of the connection will help prevent damage to the guides on your rod as well as aid in cast distance because of the way it will pass through your guides.

 

Use the appropriate line size for the cover and technique you're employing.  My first recommendation for your setup is removing the 20# braid.  It will probably be more headache than it's worth, because it will fray or plainly break much sooner than a heavier braid and the increased casting distance you'll occasionally enjoy will be negligible.

 

My favorite braid has become Berkley X9, and if I were setting up a MH casting combo with braid to leader in mind I would opt for 40 pound.  This line stacks on the FG wraps incredibly well, has no break in period for me, and is just good, affordable braid, period.

 

With the mainline out of the way, you'll need to know what line for which techniques.  Here are my other recommendations.

 

Frogs : this setup can handle a top water frog and will get a fish out of most slop and cover.  Tie your frog directly to the braid.

 

Topwater : heavier poppers, whopper poppers, walking baits.  Tie a 15# monofilament leader onto the end of the braid with the FG knot.  The stiffer leader will keep the limber braid from tangling on the hooks and fouling your cast.  Why monofilament?  It floats and won't drag the nose of your bait under the water.

 

Single Hook Moving Baits : these are spinnerbaits, paddle tail swimbaits, chatterbaits, swimjigs, etc.  Tie on a fluorocarbon leader between 10-17# depending on cover.  With swimjigs and paddletails rigged with a weighted swimbait hook in and around vegetation, straight braid is probably the preferable option.  Monofilament is also viable for the aforementioned moving baits in the same line sizes.

 

Treble Hook Moving Baits : crankbaits, jerkbaits, wakebaits and more fall into this category.  10-17# monofilament or fluorocarbon leaders, with mono leaders being my personal preference for trembles because of the additional stretch to prevent trebles from tearing free from the fish.

 

Single Hook Bottom Contact Baits : 10-17 fluorocarbon leaders depending on the cover you'll be fishing in.  These are jigs, worms, etc.

 

One last thing, I don't often see it mentioned here often, but scale up your line or scale down your line depending on the size of your hook.

 

As @A-Jay says, your mileage may vary.  I'm sure my post will be disagreed as well as agreed with, but this is the best advice I can give for a person with one rig to enable them to fish multiple presentations with a level of fine tuning that doesn't involve buying a new rod for every single application.

 

Go put some hooks to jaws!

[Junk Fisherman]

That 20 lb braid on a baitcaster sounds like trouble.  That line has the diameter of 6-8 lb monofilament and if/when you backlash it will be tough to pick out.  40-50 lb braid is the  norm since it has the diameter of 12-15 lb line.  20 lb braid is ideal for spinning reels.  

 

But to answer your question- Gamma Edge is my preferred leader line.  It is thick so I use 12 lb for baitcasters and 6 lb for spinning reels.   It is very abraison-resistant and it holds knots great.   And I have tried a bunch of leader lines.  Good luck.    

[Bankc]

Are the waters you're fishing very clear?  Because I too was told that I needed a fluorocarbon leader for braid, and used it for quite a while.  Then I switched to all braid because I discovered that in the lakes I usually fish, which are all pretty stained, the leader wasn't giving me any advantage, and only presented disadvantages.  When I travel to fish in clearer waters (which isn't often), I'll go ahead and tie on a leader on some of my rods.  But for most of the time, I'm using straight braid because it works best for me.  

[MickD]

1 hour ago, Hook2Jaw said:

My fine-tuned advice is to disregard every connection knot except the FG, or Fine Grip knot.  It is stronger than most, if not all other knots, and the slim nature of the connection will help prevent damage to the guides on your rod as well as aid in cast distance because of the way it will pass through your guides.

All good advice except, IMO, for this.  For a new user of braid to leader knots to master the FG without a whole heck of a lot of practice is very unusual.  And unless he is using very small guides it is not necessary, the double uni or Alberto will work fine.  The easiest, most reliable knot is the double uni, IF the guides are big enough, like 6mm runners.

 

It took me a lot of failures of the FG before I found a way to doing one pretty reliably, and I still don't fully trust it and use it only on my smallest micro guides.  If done right it is a great knot, lasts a long time since it doesn't get beaten up by the guides, goes through any guides cleanly, very strong.  But. . .

 

It probably should be mentioned that many fishermen don't use leaders with braid.  They tie direct to the braid and say they do well.  I like a leader because I just think it will be less visible that braid, it gives a little stretch in the system, and when I cut off lures or lose them, I lose a little leader, but not the braid, which in time with direct tying, will get shorter and shorter.

[jimmyjoe]

   I do something that a lot of people think is crazy, but it works for me. Maybe .... just maybe, it'll work for you. Try knots first, and get used to your casting setup. Then .......

 

   Get a ball bearing swivel (not snap swivel) that is rated a little stronger than your leader. I use these in #0, #1 and #2.      https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/VMC_Ball_Bearing_Swivel/descpage-VMCBBS.html

   Tie to your braid, and then tie your leader to the swivel. Yes, it has to hang outside the last guide, but then again you don't need a real long leader for bass. Walleye, maybe. Not bass.

   This gives you several advantages. Remember that one lure that always has to "helicopter" on the cast? Remember how it would twist your line after using it little while? Well, this reduces that. You can also change your leader rather quickly compared to line-to-leader knots. Not only that, but you don't have to worry about whether the particular leader that you're thinking of using will be good with whatever particular knot that you'll choose.

   And best of all ..... you can use the same ol' knots that you use for tying on lures. You know ... the ones that you use now, the ones that work OK and that you already know well. I use the Pitzen and the San Diego Jam knots.

 

   So to me, there is only one downside to this arrangement, and that's that the swivel won't snake inside your tiptop, and the knots will. Once you become comfortable with using different lines and knots, then you can decide whether you want to try this or not.

   Good luck!    ?    jj

[BrianMDTX]

Have any of you ever tried the Lefty Kreh leader knot? When I was using 8 lb YZH leaders to 20 lb Sufix 832 braid I used this knot several times. It ran through my guides well and I never had a problem with the knot failing. 

 

I’ll add the caveat that I did not catch any truly big bass on it (largest was 4 lbs), but it is simple to tie. Even a horrible knot tier like me can tie it in less than 30 seconds. 

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GDxGy3Nld2g

[Junk Fisherman]

4 hours ago, MickD said:

 

 

It took me a lot of failures of the FG before I found a way to doing one pretty reliably, and I still don't fully trust it and use it only on my smallest micro guides.  If done right it is a great knot, lasts a long time since it doesn't get beaten up by the guides, goes through any guides cleanly, very strong.  But. . .

 

 

 

I have given up using the FG with 10 lb braid and a 6-8 lb fluoro.  A doubled Alberto holds well and I don't have any issues with slippage.  While it's a bigger knot, the smaller diameter lines offset the bigger knot.  Plus, I can tie it easily in the boat when needed.  I use the FG with heavier braids on baitcasters and have never had a slippage.  

[MickD]

4 hours ago, BrianMDTX said:

Have any of you ever tried the Lefty Kreh leader knot? When I was using 8 lb YZH leaders to 20 lb Sufix 832 braid I used this knot several times. It ran through my guides well and I never had a problem with the knot failing. 

 

I’ll add the caveat that I did not catch any truly big bass on it (largest was 4 lbs), but it is simple to tie. Even a horrible knot tier like me can tie it in less than 30 seconds. 

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GDxGy3Nld2g

What size guides?  Can you tell how many layers of the leader are in this knot?  I can't figure it out from the video.  Looks like it might be big.

[BrianMDTX]

I used 20 lb braid to 8 lb YZH and I thought the knot was rather small. It went through the guides on my Fenwick HMX easily and was long enough to be on the spool without causing line issues. 

 

I had one TR get snagged that I could not get out. I cut as much braid as I could, wrapped it around a piece of wood and pulled until it broke. It snapped the 8 lb leader where the line exited the knot, but not the knot itself. I was pretty pleased with the strength it had. Granted, I’m a novice with tying leader knots, but man, this one is almost foolproof to tie and seems pretty strong. I’d have to tie an FG or Alberto to compare sizes, though. 

[squishy_pants]

22 hours ago, jimmyjoe said:

   Congratulations on your new combo!

   1) Use it awhile so as to decide whether you want to stay with the 20 lb. braid or jump to 40 or 50 lb. braid.

   2) Which braid BRAND is it?

   3) For which purposes/tactics will this be used, and for which purposes/tactics will it NOT be used?

   4) Which KNOT do you think you'll use if you want to use a leader?

   5) have you used braid before on a spinning setup?

 

   With just a little info, we'll get you set up with hundreds of pieces of different, conflicting advice!  ???   jj

I think it is sufix 832.

The tactics i’ll be using are as much as I possibly can, as it is the only combo i’ll be using. The species I’ll be fishing for are bass and pike. I just got 12# YZ hybrid, but I haven’t tied it on yet. I’m thinking of the FG knot or the double uni. That’s just what i’ve heard that’s good. I have not used braid on a spinning setup, only mono. Any help would be good, i’m pretty new at all this!

[MN Fisher]

I'm doing a double-uni for all my line joins and it works alright.

 

I've worked on learning the Albright, Alberto and FG, but being an 'aging one-eyed wonder', they're all difficult for me to do and I still don't have them down enough to make them right.

[Bankc]

The FG knot is an easy knot to learn.  It's just two steps repeated.  What's difficult is learning how to hold four strands of line and keep them all tight.  What I usually do is hold one end in my mouth, let the weight of the rod (or my foot) hold the other end, and then keep the knot tight with my left hand by pinching it, and use my right hand to tie it.  
 

I've never had one fail on me, and it took me all of an hour to learn and get good at.  What helped me was I watched a few videos of how to tie the knot itself, so that I understood what the line needs to do to make the knot.  Then, I watched this video, and it gave me the clearest picture of the body mechanics involved to do it efficiently.  

 

https://youtu.be/5G0FO7Iy-60

 

You don't want to try to learn the knot itself from that video.  I'd use other videos with closeups of the line for that.  But what it does show you is how to use your body to keep everything tight, while doing it quickly and securely.  I saw several other videos that show you how to tie it with just your hands, or other supposedly simplified methods.  And I'm sure they all work.  But for just starting out, I'd recommend not trying to learn "the easy way".  Instead, do what that guy does to make sure you learn how to keep it tight while tying it.  

 

Keeping the knot tight, or tightening it many, many times along the way, is really important to this knot.  It's too long to try to tie it loose and cinch it up at the end like most other fishing knots.  You have to treat it a bit differently.  But, it's not really that hard of a knot to learn or tie right once you get it down.  I have more problems with the Palomar on a long lure with treble hooks or a skirt and weed guard than I do with the FG.  I just need more room to tie the FG, which means I usually do it a home while watching TV before going out, versus trying to tie it on in the boat.  

[J Francho]

I don't like the way anything less than 40# braid acts on a BC.  What ever connection knot you use, practice tying it, and test it well.  For leader, I use Seaguar Blue Label leader.  It's tough stuff that's easy to tie, and resists abrasion.

[Ben77]

I use 12 pd sunline super fc sniper as my leader and I highly recommend it.

[jimmyjoe]

18 hours ago, squishy_pants said:

I think it is sufix 832.

The tactics i’ll be using are as much as I possibly can, as it is the only combo i’ll be using. The species I’ll be fishing for are bass and pike. I just got 12# YZ hybrid, but I haven’t tied it on yet. I’m thinking of the FG knot or the double uni. That’s just what i’ve heard that’s good. I have not used braid on a spinning setup, only mono. Any help would be good, i’m pretty new at all this!

 

  

   You haven't used braid on spinning, and you've mentioned 20 lb. braid (832) on casting. So it's obvious you're new to braid, and MAYBE new to casting. You also aren't familiar with line-to-line knots.

   You told us that you "heard that you should get a FC leader when you fish braid".

   DO NOT believe everything that you hear.

   For right now, you should go to 40 lb. test (or higher) braid on you casting reel. Pay attention to diameter, NOT pounds of test. The higher diameter braid will feed better off a revolving spool reel, and it also won't dig in quite as badly. I'd suggest .014" diameter minimum.

   And go DIRECT BRAID, with no leader, at least FOR NOW. Not down the line, but just for now. If you add in the problem of a leader knot to the process of learning to cast braid (nylon is easier) I think you'll just add to your frustration. This fishing thing is supposed to be enjoyable, not frustrating .... especially when you're starting.

   Also: you mentioned pike. I fish for bass where there are lots of pike. The only leader that's really practical where there are pike is a steel or bronze metal leader. Metal leaders can be a drag on lures, damping their action if the lures are real light or small. Since your new casting rod is a MH, the lures you can use will overcome the drag of a metal leader if you use heavier lures. So I suggest 3/8 oz. lures minimum, with 1/2 oz. or more being even better.

   You said this is the only rig that you'll be using. You'll probably want to cast soft plastic, like Senkos and worms. Casting soft plastic with braid on a baitcaster isn't the best idea when you're starting out, but you can get by. It's not going to be easy. A Carolina rig might be easier for you, because it's a little heavier. 

   Remember: you told us that you're pretty new to all this! But if you take it careful and easy as you start, and work up incrementally, you'll get there. Many, many people have, and you can, too.

 

   GOOD LUCK!  ???  jj

[squishy_pants]

I’m wondering why you would need a leader with braid. If you don’t want fish to see your line, why not just use your leader line as your main line? I’m a new fisherman, i’m sure there are good reasons that I haven’t heard yet.

[Sam]

Hello Squishy, here is my answer to your query:

Some believe the bass can see braid and therefore the fish will be spooked and swim off.

Using a fluorocarbon line as a "leader" means that the line is invisible to the fish and they will hit the bait.

Only problem is that another knot in your line creates a weak point where the line could snap.

 

I know of a pro who uses straight braid, no flouro as a leader,and he does really well.

 

Using a "leader" is a personal choice and it boils down to confidence in your bait presentation.

 

Experiment and try fishing both ways at your favorite pond, etc. at the same time and keep a mental record of which setup works best. Then you will have a good idea to use a leader or not.

 

Have fun and let us have the results of your experiment.

[jimmyjoe]

   There are people who believe nylon and fluorocarbon stretch too much, so they want to use braid.

   Some of these people tie braid direct, but some of them believe their braid is too visible, so they use a leader. Some use a fluoro leader, some use a mono leader.

   Some people use straight nylon or fluoro with no problems.

 

   Only use, time on the water and outlay (unfortunately) of cash are going to tell you which type of fisherman you are. No shortcuts to find our personal preferences on this one! 

   Good luck!    jj

[Fin S]

Braid is more sensitive and has less stretch than mono. You can feel what your lure is doing better than with straight mono. That's why I use it. A mono or fluoro leader is less visible and gives you a little bit of stretch, which is a good thing. Some guys use fluorocarbon line, which has less stretch than mono and is less visible. With fluoro, you don't need (or want) a leader.  Most guys seem to have a preference for either braid to leader or straight fluoro (there are plenty of guys that use straight mono too), but most will switch for certain presentations/circumstances.

Line preference is such a personal thing that there's only one way to find out what works best for you.

[BassNJake]

A lot of people experience line twist when running straight flouro on spinning reels.

The braid reduces the line twist and flouro is more effective (less visible) in clearer water in my experience

 

[GreenPig]

Braid to leader gives me a much better hookset on long cast with single hook baits along with increased sensitivity.