Guides - how much difference, really?

[txchaser]

I'm looking for feedback from someone who's fished rods that are the same in all ways but for the guides... How much difference, really between some middling alconite and titanium/torzite/alconite/space-ninja stuff. I'm starting to kick around the idea of getting a rod built to see what that path looks like. It is hard to see from here how a half a gram can make a difference. 

 

[shimanoangler]

I am in the exact same boat you are right now...  Alconite, SIC, Torzite & AGS.....  I am literally in the process of testing rods to see if I can actually notice the difference in weight, feel (sensitivity) and performance.   I have two Daiwa Cronos 7'6" MMLs with Stinger Tip that have Alconite guides and a SIC tip, and I am comparing those to the Dobyns Xtasy 752 which has all Torzite guides and comparing both of those to the Daiwa Tatula Elite with AGS.... I have two Dobyns Champion Extreme HPs, which are full SIC guides that I am trying to assess as well... 

 

The answer has to be discernable, right?, as the price tag for a rod goes up exponentially as the guide technology climbs with it....   I am eager to hear others thoughts, and I am looking forward to conducting my own assessment this weekend chasing smallies fishing drop shots, tubes, paddle tails, spy baits and neds...  

[jimmyjoe]

   As far as comparing apples strictly to apples, I don't know that it can be done. But......

 

   I had 2 MH/F casting rods, one Alconite and one titanium dioxide. Titanium dioxide is about the cheapest ceramic guide insert that you can get. I also had 2 M/F spinning rods, one Alconite and one just plain stainless steel (no chrome plating or anything). I have also used about 11 other of my own rods and tried other fishermen's rods.

   I have been fishing aggressively in the rivers (dirty, muddy water) since before 1985. I have used braid (Spectra and nylon), fluorocarbon (very little) and all kinds and diameters of nylon monofilament.

   As far as wear, NONE of them other than the stainless steel have shown any wear. None at all.

 

   But as far as sensitivity ..... that's a different story.

   The stainless steel had very little sensitivity with mono, but was acceptably useful with braid.

   All the ceramic inserts were more sensitive. Naturally, they were more sensitive with braid than they were with nylon. The line made far more difference than the inserts did; my old, tattered Mitchell Classic rod with braid outdid my (then) new Avid-X with Stren.

   The thing is, it didn't outdo it by all that much. As far as I can tell, the blank has an enormous contribution to sensitivity, almost regardless the guides. With roughly the same construction of guide insert, I'd definitely start comparing blank material, blank construction, taper, energy absorption and settling speed. I believe that's where the sensitivity secret lies. 

   This doesn't mean that you can saddle a fine blank with guides that are total junk and have a good rod. Remember I said, " ..... With roughly the same construction of guide insert." I meant to compare the blanks under reasonable conditions rather than compare the guides.

    I believe from use on the water that 1) the difference in guide insert material is negligible to nil. 2) the difference in guide SIZE (mass) is moderately important, but 3) the difference in blanks is overwhelming.

   And I'm not talking about the feel of hooking a fish on a steady retrieve. That's not sensitivity; that's action. Sensitivity is really only a factor in bottom contact, including jigging, feeling the hit of a fadeaway lure, figuring out minor "bumps", and twitching slow-retrieve lures.

   If I had Bill Gates' money, I could test my opinion here. I could get 20 or 30 different blanks, with 5 or 6 different kinds of guides on each of them, and then compare them. But I don't have that kind of money.

   I also don't worry about it much. Experience has taught me that what works, works. I'm not OCD ..... at least not any more.   ?     jj

  

  

  

[shimanoangler]

6 hours ago, jimmyjoe said:

   As far as comparing apples strictly to apples, I don't know that it can be done. But......

 

   I had 2 MH/F casting rods, one Alconite and one titanium dioxide. Titanium dioxide is about the cheapest ceramic guide insert that you can get. I also had 2 M/F spinning rods, one Alconite and one just plain stainless steel (no chrome plating or anything). I have also used about 11 other of my own rods and tried other fishermen's rods.

   I have been fishing aggressively in the rivers (dirty, muddy water) since before 1985. I have used braid (Spectra and nylon), fluorocarbon (very little) and all kinds and diameters of nylon monofilament.

   As far as wear, NONE of them other than the stainless steel have shown any wear. None at all.

 

   But as far as sensitivity ..... that's a different story.

   The stainless steel had very little sensitivity with mono, but was acceptably useful with braid.

   All the ceramic inserts were more sensitive. Naturally, they were more sensitive with braid than they were with nylon. The line made far more difference than the inserts did; my old, tattered Mitchell Classic rod with braid outdid my (then) new Avid-X with Stren.

   The thing is, it didn't outdo it by all that much. As far as I can tell, the blank has an enormous contribution to sensitivity, almost regardless the guides. With roughly the same construction of guide insert, I'd definitely start comparing blank material, blank construction, taper, energy absorption and settling speed. I believe that's where the sensitivity secret lies. 

   This doesn't mean that you can saddle a fine blank with guides that are total junk and have a good rod. Remember I said, " ..... With roughly the same construction of guide insert." I meant to compare the blanks under reasonable conditions rather than compare the guides.

    I believe from use on the water that 1) the difference in guide insert material is negligible to nil. 2) the difference in guide SIZE (mass) is moderately important, but 3) the difference in blanks is overwhelming.

   And I'm not talking about the feel of hooking a fish on a steady retrieve. That's not sensitivity; that's action. Sensitivity is really only a factor in bottom contact, including jigging, feeling the hit of a fadeaway lure, figuring out minor "bumps", and twitching slow-retrieve lures.

   If I had Bill Gates' money, I could test my opinion here. I could get 20 or 30 different blanks, with 5 or 6 different kinds of guides on each of them, and then compare them. But I don't have that kind of money.

   I also don't worry about it much. Experience has taught me that what works, works. I'm not OCD ..... at least not any more.   ?     jj

  

  

  

I am finding that what you have written to be true as I compare rods and guides of similar construction, powers and actions using the same line (huge impact).  Thanks for taking the time to write.  Very informative.  

[jimmyjoe]

   You're welcome.      jj

[Eric 26]

I also thoroughly enjoyed the explanation. Thanks JJ??

[OnthePotomac]

I found this many years ago and probably out of date now:

Hardness Values

Stainless(SS): 400
Chrome: 800-1000
Carbaloy: 1000
Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400
Alconite : 1300-1500
NanoLite : 1800
Zirconia: 1000-1400
Zirconia PVD: 1600
Silicon Carbide (SiC): 2200-2400

 

Information on titanium carbide is pretty interesting.  Titanium carbide films have found wide application in various tribological engineering devices owing to its excellent hardness and, therefore, wear resistance. To apply titanium carbide coating on various substrates, physical vapor phase deposition (PVD) and chemical vapor phase deposition (CVD) methods are commonly employed.  The key word here is "coating" because titanium carbide in its bulk state is not used.  It has a hardness of around 3000 (30GPa).
Notice that the BPS Carbonlite rods use the term PVD coating.  The problem I gleaned from the information I found is that titanium carbide coating hardness is hard to determine because of the material it coats (which is usually a ceramic of some sort), but they are working on it.

Hialoy is really a high content aluminum oxide (used on many rods), that is diamond polished.  I cannot find any information on whether its hardness is different than regular aluminum oxide.

[Tywithay]

I've seen little to no difference between the different insert materials. Some older aluminum oxide guides would groove with braid, but it doesn't seem to be an issue on more modern inserts. The harder, slicker guides like SiC and Torzite may marginally improve casting distance, due to less friction, but I don't think it'd be enough of an improvement to actually notice the results on the water. The biggest impact in guide choice has to do with weight. The Tatula Elite and Elite AGS rods are one of the few models that I know have the same blank with different guides. I can tell you from my own experience, and I imagine others will agree, the AGS rods have a different feel. The lighter graphite guides make the rod more crisp, balanced, and transmit vibrations more clearly. It's not a night and day difference, as the alconite Elite rods aren't exactly Ugly Sticks, but it's definitely a noticeable improvement with the AGS guides.

 

A rod blank is like a guitar string, transmitting vibrations from one end to the other. Anything that is touching the blank will dampen the vibrations. The heavier and less rigid the materials, the more it will dampen them. This is why lightweight rigid materials like titanium and graphite have become popular in rod building, though there is extra cost involved. There's a good thread on another forum about a guy that modified his Loomis Conquest rod by making it a split grip and changing to smaller lighter guides. He managed to save several grams of weight and mentioned how much difference it made in the feel. That's a $600-$700 rod, so if saving a little weight can make a difference for that rod that already had premium components, it'd make an even bigger difference on a rod that has cheaper components. 

[Mike 126]

I started rod building a few years ago.  For a casting rods I’ve used alconite and they seem to hold up nicely.  I would invest in a good tip top as that seems to take the brunt of the line plus they get banged up. 
 

For spinning rods guide placement will make a difference. Fuji has developed a pretty interesting guide placement approach which incorporates the reel size and line into the placement.  The process is called the KR Process. 
 

When I build I tend to use better components than you see on factory rods. The price difference is marginal when you consider total cost and time for a build.  

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

You should look at a rod build as a total package. The smallest, lightest guides that will pass connections and hold up in the application will preserve the maximum of the blanks inherent quality. There’s no one secret or silver bullet. Like anything else, there is the issue of bang for the buck and point of diminishing returns. When you’re ready, I’ll be happy to talk with you and work through the decision making process and hopefully do a build for you.  

[.ghoti.]

When I choose guides for a build, I talk to my customer. I want to know what they want, what they expect, and what they will be doing with the finished rod. There are a lot of different answers to the question.

 

For my own rods, I want the lightest guides set I can buy. I use Recoil guides for the upper part of the rod. Stripper guides and one or two more will usually be Fuji Alconites. The tiptop is also usually an Alconite.

 

Titanium alloy frames will be lighter that steel frames. Enough lighter to justify the cost differential? Not in my opinion.

 

what about ring material? You can look up the hardness specs. I know I spent a lot of time comparing guides specs. Go ahead and check it all out. You will learn something from it. The truth is, anything from aluminum oxide up, is fine.

 

I did an experiment suggested by an experienced rod builder. Took an Alconite guide, and went at the ceramic ring with a file. Fingers got cramped up, so I got ahold of the guide frame with Vise grips. I eventually bent up the frame badly enough the ring popped out of the frame, but the file did no damage at all to the ring. NONE!

 

I have built rods using SiC guides, and a couple with Torzites. Have heard several claim they would never use anything less. I have heard people claim SiC and Torzite guides will cast farther than lesser ring materials. That is a large steaming pile of what dropped out of the south end of a north-bound bull.

 

The main difference between Alconite and SiC is durability. Drop a rod with SiC guides on your garage floor, and there is a very good chance one or more of those SiC rings will be cracked. Do the same with Alconites and there is a very good chance no rings will be damaged. SiC rings are a lot more brittle. 
 

As far as Torzite guides go, those are for the dude whose ego demands that his toys be the most expensive. Do not drink that flavor koolaid. Torzites are expensive, and possess no qualities justifying the cost.

 

txchaser, if you are serious about a custom stick, get with Mike at DVT. He will take care of you.

[shimanoangler]

7 hours ago, .ghoti. said:

When I choose guides for a build, I talk to my customer. I want to know what they want, what they expect, and what they will be doing with the finished rod. There are a lot of different answers to the question.

 

For my own rods, I want the lightest guides set I can buy. I use Recoil guides for the upper part of the rod. Stripper guides and one or two more will usually be Fuji Alconites. The tiptop is also usually an Alconite.

 

Titanium alloy frames will be lighter that steel frames. Enough lighter to justify the cost differential? Not in my opinion.

 

what about ring material? You can look up the hardness specs. I know I spent a lot of time comparing guides specs. Go ahead and check it all out. You will learn something from it. The truth is, anything from aluminum oxide up, is fine.

 

I did an experiment suggested by an experienced rod builder. Took an Alconite guide, and went at the ceramic ring with a file. Fingers got cramped up, so I got ahold of the guide frame with Vise grips. I eventually bent up the frame badly enough the ring popped out of the frame, but the file did no damage at all to the ring. NONE!

 

I have built rods using SiC guides, and a couple with Torzites. Have heard several claim they would never use anything less. I have heard people claim SiC and Torzite guides will cast farther than lesser ring materials. That is a large steaming pile of what dropped out of the south end of a north-bound bull.

 

The main difference between Alconite and SiC is durability. Drop a rod with SiC guides on your garage floor, and there is a very good chance one or more of those SiC rings will be cracked. Do the same with Alconites and there is a very good chance no rings will be damaged. SiC rings are a lot more brittle. 
 

As far as Torzite guides go, those are for the dude whose ego demands that his toys be the most expensive. Do not drink that flavor koolaid. Torzites are expensive, and possess no qualities justifying the cost.

 

txchaser, if you are serious about a custom stick, get with Mike at DVT. He will take care of you.

Actually Alpha Angler makes their rods the same way you do, stripper guide in a SIC or Alconite material, top guides in recoil and tip is SIC or alconite.  So my question is, why don't more companies follow this same build philosophy if the light is the goal?  From what I have read, it is lightness that helps make a blank more crisp and sensitive, so why not use these other materials that allow that lightness to be achieved without breaking the bank?  

 

 

[Tim Kelly]

The first time I fished a rod with torzites I was blown away. They are insanely expensive though, so I would find other ways of making the guide train lighter if I were building a rod. I don't think there's much difference between alconites, SIC etc though in practice. Microguides, as small as fits your situation, are a great way of reducing the weight on the tip section of a rod. 

[dodgeguy]

18 hours ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

You should look at a rod build as a total package. The smallest, lightest guides that will pass connections and hold up in the application will preserve the maximum of the blanks inherent quality. There’s no one secret or silver bullet. Like anything else, there is the issue of bang for the buck and point of diminishing returns. When you’re ready, I’ll be happy to talk with you and work through the decision making process and hopefully do a build for you.  

What he said . And IMHO you can't go wrong with Fuji Sic or Alconite. Never had one go bad yet. I prefer micro guides.

[MickD]

I have never had a guide get grooved.  Even the old cheapies on the big box store rods I used to use. Even with braid.  The guides near the butt have little to do with sensitivity, unlike the runners, the ones near the tip.  You want the lightest you can get along with there.  I have had a number of tiptops groove, which is why I always use SIC tiptops.

 

As stated above, if you have not tried braid, you have not yet taken advantage of the biggest sensitivity improvement you can make. 

[Tywithay]

10 hours ago, shimanoangler said:

Actually Alpha Angler makes their rods the same way you do, stripper guide in a SIC or Alconite material, top guides in recoil and tip is SIC or alconite.  So my question is, why don't more companies follow this same build philosophy if the light is the goal?  From what I have read, it is lightness that helps make a blank more crisp and sensitive, so why not use these other materials that allow that lightness to be achieved without breaking the bank?  

 

 

NRX uses the same concept, with the recoil guides. GLX, Legend Xtreme, and a few others used recoil guides in the past. A lot of people didn't care for the feel, because they are a little noisy with braided lines. The other downside, despite the relatively simple build, they're quite expensive. REC guides can cost $6-$10 per guide depending on the size and model, whereas Fuji K-series alconite are $2-$4. Doesn't seem like much, but if you build a handful of rods with 8 or 9 guides a piece, you're talking about hundreds of dollars.

[MickD]

The biggest factors in runner weight, where the sensitivity is best maintained by light guides, are  frame material and size.  Titanium is expensive, but light.  Price point is very important in selling assembled, big box store, rods, so in most cases titanium is out. 

 

Small is good, but I don't think all anglers are ready for the really small micros yet.  They take a good knot to pass leader knots through, they can ice up in cold weather, they look fragile to many anglers, so most assembled rods use bigger guides with stainless steel frames.

[txchaser]

I really appreciate everyone weighing in. I learned a bunch. It sounds like the inserts aren't as much of a deal as the frame supporting it.

 

Here's what's on my mind - I move my rods around a lot, and it has caused me some challenges with guides, including a busted AGS guide, and a knocked out single-footed alconite. I think for my next rod I'd like one of the x-ray blanks, especially since they just went on sale and surely a builder somewhere around here picked up a few. Am I stuck on that particular blank - no... but the other NFC-blank rods I have are very clearly different in a good way than my other rods.

 

So embedded in the question was can I get tougher guides without ruining the point of the nice blank in the first place? But maybe the torzite ones are super-tough anyway? For a bottom contact rod I'm really not liking where the trigger is on the fuji reel seat now that I'm in the habit of touching the line. 

 

Whatever they call the not quite a micro but still small guides are fine. 

 

Is a really nice bottom contact rod that doesn't need to be babied a thing? There are nice shotguns that should probably never see the field, and nice shotguns that are happy in the slop. 

 

Truth be told I'm sure I don't need another rod, but I kind of want one, and I can, so there's that. Story I'm telling myself is I can't have a frog, a punch rig or big worm, and a swim jig all on at the same time... but that's summer in Texas. I've made do by putting braid on a MH for the swim jig and making sure I don't have a gaffe-sized hook. 

[jimmyjoe]

   I don't particularly like micro guides on casting rods, but from all I've seen of the guys I fish with, micro guides are less likely to break or dislodge than macro or regular.    jj

[.ghoti.]

4 hours ago, Tywithay said:

NRX uses the same concept, with the recoil guides. GLX, Legend Xtreme, and a few others used recoil guides in the past. A lot of people didn't care for the feel, because they are a little noisy with braided lines. The other downside, despite the relatively simple build, they're quite expensive. REC guides can cost $6-$10 per guide depending on the size and model, whereas Fuji K-series alconite are $2-$4. Doesn't seem like much, but if you build a handful of rods with 8 or 9 guides a piece, you're talking about hundreds of dollars.

Yeah, I can’t claim I came up with the idea of mixing guide type. Saw a rod like that, and said to myself, self, you knucklehead, why didn’t you think of that?

 

I use these recoil guides. They’re fly rod guides. $3.45 each I use the size 1.

http://www.anglersworkshop.com/REC/RSF-Recoil-Titanium-Single-Foot-Snake-Guides

I would not use these wrapped on top of the rod. It seems to me the potential exists for the line to get caught in the joint when reeling in under a load. Don’t know if that would happen. Never tried it. Just looked like a bad idea to me. No problem on a spinning rod nor on a spiral wrapped casting rod

 

Looked up a quote I made to guy last year for a 7’6” spinning rod. Used Fuji guide sizing software to pick guide sizes for a KR concept guide setup.

Alconite guide set = $28

Ti/ SiC Set = $97

Ti/Torzite set = $136
Alconite with the above mentioned recoil running guides = $32

[shimanoangler]

On 9/1/2020 at 10:10 PM, jimmyjoe said:

   As far as comparing apples strictly to apples, I don't know that it can be done. But......

 

   I had 2 MH/F casting rods, one Alconite and one titanium dioxide. Titanium dioxide is about the cheapest ceramic guide insert that you can get. I also had 2 M/F spinning rods, one Alconite and one just plain stainless steel (no chrome plating or anything). I have also used about 11 other of my own rods and tried other fishermen's rods.

   I have been fishing aggressively in the rivers (dirty, muddy water) since before 1985. I have used braid (Spectra and nylon), fluorocarbon (very little) and all kinds and diameters of nylon monofilament.

   As far as wear, NONE of them other than the stainless steel have shown any wear. None at all.

 

   But as far as sensitivity ..... that's a different story.

   The stainless steel had very little sensitivity with mono, but was acceptably useful with braid.

   All the ceramic inserts were more sensitive. Naturally, they were more sensitive with braid than they were with nylon. The line made far more difference than the inserts did; my old, tattered Mitchell Classic rod with braid outdid my (then) new Avid-X with Stren.

   The thing is, it didn't outdo it by all that much. As far as I can tell, the blank has an enormous contribution to sensitivity, almost regardless the guides. With roughly the same construction of guide insert, I'd definitely start comparing blank material, blank construction, taper, energy absorption and settling speed. I believe that's where the sensitivity secret lies. 

   This doesn't mean that you can saddle a fine blank with guides that are total junk and have a good rod. Remember I said, " ..... With roughly the same construction of guide insert." I meant to compare the blanks under reasonable conditions rather than compare the guides.

    I believe from use on the water that 1) the difference in guide insert material is negligible to nil. 2) the difference in guide SIZE (mass) is moderately important, but 3) the difference in blanks is overwhelming.

   And I'm not talking about the feel of hooking a fish on a steady retrieve. That's not sensitivity; that's action. Sensitivity is really only a factor in bottom contact, including jigging, feeling the hit of a fadeaway lure, figuring out minor "bumps", and twitching slow-retrieve lures.

   If I had Bill Gates' money, I could test my opinion here. I could get 20 or 30 different blanks, with 5 or 6 different kinds of guides on each of them, and then compare them. But I don't have that kind of money.

   I also don't worry about it much. Experience has taught me that what works, works. I'm not OCD ..... at least not any more.   ?     jj

  

  

  

So I had the opportunity to put into action your feedback/statement blank making the biggest impact on sensitivity and guides really not having that big of an impact on sensitivity, and I would have to say that you are spot on.  I was able to test the Daiwa Tatula Elite with the AGS guides to the Daiwa Cronos with Alconite guides/SIC tip, both rods 7'6" (on a ML and the other MML) fishing the exact same size/weight tube and the exact same line (braid to leader) for an entire day on the water and wella, the answer is in..... I could tell nary a difference between the impact of the AGS guides versus the Alconite guides.  The Elite has the SVF blank and the Cronos the HVF blanks (which I guess Daiwa would tell you is a step down from the SVF blank) and I can honestly say that I could tell absolutely NO difference in the sensitivity of the two rods.  In fact, I would go one step further and tell you that sensitivity in each rod was "average" in that I could not feel a single slack like bite/pick up of the tube and I caught several fish on each rod.   That is NOT the case with my Dobyns Xtasy 723 rod.  I feel slack line bites and pick ups ALWAYs on that rod, and my guess is that it is because that rod's blank material is just better (Dobyns Xtasy Torray 1100), despite it having the Torzite guides.  My belief now after this weekend's fishing experiment is guides make little (not none) difference in sensitivity, and the blank is the engine that drives the quality of sensitivity in a rod.   

 

Thank you for sharing your feedback and thought I would share mine, which supports your opinion/statement.  

[MickD]

There is another factor that I don't think has been mentioned.  It is heat generation by long fast runs of salt water fish.  For this application there are differences that matter.  SIC, I believe, is the best material other than possibly the Fuji Torzite rings for heat dissipation and lower heat generation.  I don't cut corners on guides for my salt water rods.  Also, for salt, titanium is bulletproof for corrosion.  Some stainless steels are very good, too, but not as good as titanium.

[shimanoangler]

Great topic, and as we head into a long winter, I think the continuation of conversation about sensitivity in rod line ups is a great way to pass the time.  I think all the feedback in this thread has been extremely insightful and informative.  That is the great thing about blogs like this.

 

Anyone else with experience/thoughts on this topic, please share.   Tight lines and happy holidays!! 

[FishTank]

The only time I ever noticed a difference was when I did a warranty exchange with G. Loomis on a 803C GLX.  The rod I had, had Recoil Guides and the new one they sent me had Fuji SIC Guides.  The Recoil Guides were way better when it came to sensitivity.   The Fuji's are OK but the Recoils made the rod feel like a magic wand.   I begged G. Loomis to find me the old style rod but had no luck and I was stuck with a rod that seemed like a down grade. 

[shimanoangler]

So you feel like those guys made that big of a difference in the overall feel of the rod?  That's interesting to hear because I have a rod right now that I was thinking about selling that has recoil guides up to blank, with an SIC tip and an SIC stripper guide.  I haven't fished it yet, but to hear you talk about the sensitivity difference that not having recoil guides made on your g Loomis rod, makes me want to hold on to till next spring and see for myself if there's a true difference.  Thanks for sharing.