Alberto knot mystery failures- solved?

[MickD]

Some of you may remember a time ago of my posting that I was having trouble with Albertos unravelling.  I thought I had it figured out about a year ago, but then I got another this year.  The problem is always the same, the knot unravels and fails with no force on it.  The knot is not getting overloaded.

 

I've spent quite a bit of time while watching TV tying the Alberto with 20 pound leader and 15 pound braid.  I think I've finally figured it out.  I have noticed that unless the knot is really set hard after tying, like you have to set an FG, that sometimes the leader loop at the end of the knot is not fully closed.  This is probably worse the heavier the leader gets as it's harder to pull it closed.  I tied a bunch of them setting them very hard, using a dowel to wrap the braid around to get max tension without cutting myself, and the knots all tightened up with no opening of the leader loop visible.  I think the tag end of the braid on some of my knots was slipping out of the leader loop.  Perhaps a couple half hitches of the braid tag end would help, too.  Like the FG.

 

Time on the water will tell.  If you are having trouble with the Alberto try using a tool to set the knot very hard (while wet of course, and with the braid tag end exiting the loop in the right direction.)

[roadwarrior]

Use the leader line as the "stationary" line, wrapping with the braid. Moisten (spit) and tighten slowly.

Now tighten the main forcefully, then the leader. Trim to about 1/8". Pinch the knot between your

thumb and index finger. With a cigarette lighter CAREFULLY burn a bead on the tag ends. You will

have to practice a few times and of course, start over if you burn the main lines!

[J._Bricker]

https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Daiichi_Seiko_Finger_Saver_Knot_Tying_Tool/descpage-DSFSK.html

These things really help me secure my Albert knots and pretty much any other knot while saving my fingers and hands from line cuts. Hope this helps @MickD

[ike8120]

I wrap the ends around a small dowel, prevents cutting your fingers.

[MickD]

Finger saver looks like a great product, but pretty pricey.  Being a member of the CHOF  (cheapskates Hall of Fame) I just have to find something around the house with a soft surface that will grab the line like the saver.

[NHBull]

I use this to mushroom mono/ FC for FG , Alberto and PR knot.  Also stops braid from fraying 

https://www.google.com/search?q=berkley+line+cutter&rlz=1C9BKJA_enCA684US685&oq=berkley+line+cutter&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.30193j1j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=imgv&imgv=0

 

[islandbass]

53 minutes ago, MickD said:

Finger saver looks like a great product, but pretty pricey.  Being a member of the CHOF  (cheapskates Hall of Fame) I just have to find something around the house with a soft surface that will grab the line like the saver.

So do you have lifetime membership like me? ??
 

to the topic thanks on the Alberto advice. I’m stuck on the Albright and have noticed sometimes when I tie it, the same thing happens when pulling the lines taut it too can unravel when I tighten it too slowly. I think the culprit is if you stick the line that did the wrapping in the wrong place of the made loop. 

[MickD]

Yes, lifetime membership.  I had solved the issue of sticking the line tag through the wrong way, but still had a few that unraveled.  Not while tying it, but after a few hours on the water.

 

1 hour ago, NHBull said:

I use this to mushroom mono/ FC for FG , Alberto and PR knot.  Also stops braid from fraying 

https://www.google.com/search?q=berkley+line+cutter&rlz=1C9BKJA_enCA684US685&oq=berkley+line+cutter&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.30193j1j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=imgv&imgv=0

 

This looks like a lot better deal for $10 than the ring.  Note the first review that said it works well for repairing plastic lures , too.

3 hours ago, roadwarrior said:

Use the leader line as the "stationary" line, wrapping with the braid. Moisten (spit) and tighten slowly.

Now tighten the main forcefully, then the leader. Trim to about 1/8". Pinch the knot between your

thumb and index finger. With a cigarette lighter CAREFULLY burn a bead on the tag ends. You will

have to practice a few times and of course, start over if you burn the main lines!

Will try your method.  I have found (in my chair) that after tying, and sticking the tag (braid) through the loop, and pulling it to start forming the knot, that when I get it fairly compressed, pulling on the tag end of the leader mostly closes the loop at the end of the braid "stack."  Then I moisten and tighten the braid, then back to pulling again on the leader tag, then putting the big pull using the main leader and main braid.  If the wraps of the braid are done right, the knot will be small and straight, with no leader loop open.  

[king fisher]

As others have said, when you Finnish your knot, make sure the line goes back through the leader loop the same direction as when you started the knot, then bring it through one more time.  Pull hard to tighten, no need to tighten extremely hard like with the FG.  Biggest mistake people make is not getting the wraps cinched tight against the very end of leader loop, there should be no gap. Also trim the tag end on the leader very close.  This keeps the main line from catching on the tag eventually making the main line week just above the knot.  Tied correctly it is a great knot.  I can tie the Alberto faster with less difficulty than either the blood, or double Uni and I used both those knots on a daily basis  for  over 30 years.  Great improvement over the Albright, or improved Albright.

[MickD]

12 hours ago, king fisher said:

no need to tighten extremely hard like with the FG.

I believe in order to close the loop properly with the heavier/stiffer leader materials that one has to tighten it hard like the FG.  Twice through the loop with the braid sounds like a good idea, will try it.  

[FryDog62]

“the issue of sticking the line tag through the wrong way”

I believe it was Berkley that did a study on several knots but found running the tag the wrong way at the end of the knot was 99% of the reason for failure on the Alberto.
 

Tied right it was always a top finisher in “Knot Wars” competition.  However, it was also the knot that failed most often and maybe not coincidentally the only knot where finishing the tag correctly in a particular way was absolutely critical.  

I have done this too myself where I SWEAR I ran the tag back through the loop correctly - only to watch the lure sail off with the leader a couple casts later and nothing left but the remnants of a mis-tied, curly-cue knot that I had tightened down like a vice.  

[MickD]

Yup.  I think I have that figured out, but. . .

[WRB]

Lubricate with super glue.

Tom

[MickD]

Here are two photos of Albertos tied with 15 pound braid and 20 pound FC, with the braid taken off.  The lines  in the top picture is the FC as it looked after the braid was cut and unwoven from the knots.  The right line in each photo is the line from a hand-tightened knot. The loose loop (right in each pic) is the FC from a knot which was progressively tightened to close the loop as much as possible with the final set using only my hands, no tool.  The tight loop is the FC from a knot tied the same way, but the final set was done with a tool to prevent hands from being cut and which allowed a tighter set, just like the set one does on an FG.  In the top photo you can see it didn't open up when the braid was removed.  In the bottom the image shows it after I opened it up for a better view of the condition of the FC.

 

You can see that with the tool the FC is much more "distorted," from the braid embedding into the FC, just like one sees with a well-tied FG.  The appearances of the finished knot differed in that the tool-set knot was shorter than the hand set knot.  (9 wraps in each knot)  The FC loops at the end looked about the same to the naked eye.

 

It is logical to me to conclude that the tool-tightened Alberto knot will be more reliable than the hand-tightened knot, just like in the FG where a very hard set knot is more reliable than one not set very hard.

 

I don't like to use super glue as it seems to always get where I don't want it, like on my fingers, and I don't like the white blob it forms.  And it seems that when I need it, it has hardened in the tube/container spout and is a general PIA.

[MickD]

On 8/31/2020 at 12:21 PM, WRB said:

Lubricate with super glue

Not a feasible option, IMHO.  It gets everywhere it's not supposed to be, and if there is any water nearby, it bonds to whatever it's in contact with.  Additionally, the dispensers get sealed shut from a drop of water that gets into the tip, so I have to stick a wire down it again. 

 

The double half hitch works without the problems of super glue.

[WRB]

13 minutes ago, MickD said:

Not a feasible option, IMHO.  It gets everywhere it's not supposed to be, and if there is any water nearby, it bonds to whatever it's in contact with.  Additionally, the dispensers get sealed shut from a drop of water that gets into the tip, so I have to stick a wire down it again. 

 

The double half hitch works without the problems of super glue.

Tongue in cheek?

[waymont]

On 8/30/2020 at 5:54 PM, MickD said:

This looks like a lot better deal for $10 than the ring

I'm going to disagree with this. That ring helps to tighten your knots without cutting yourself.

It's a very good product.

[txchaser]

@MickD I'm curious if 1) you have anything further after some time has elapsed and 2) were you using 8-carrier braid? I ask about #2 because most of it is slick enough I've had to make some tweaks here and there to get good knots with the FG, especially on hard leader. 

[new2BC4bass]

12 hours ago, waymont said:

I'm going to disagree with this. That ring helps to tighten your knots without cutting yourself.

It's a very good product.

I don't know about the cost of getting the rubber on the ring, but as someone who has programmed lathes for 36 years I can tell you we couldn't get a customer to pay even $1 for the metal part.  So it may be a handy tool, but I have to agree it is overpriced.

 

[king fisher]

When tying an Alberto, the main concern is getting the cross hatches slid all the way against the end of the loop made in the leader.  A person needs to work the wraps down to the end while tightening.  If you tighten the line before the wraps slide to the end, the cross hatches, will grip the line above the end loop.  The knot will be just as strong, but will give the braid tag end a chance to work it's way back through the loop resulting in the knot simply coming untied. Once the wraps are positioned at the end of the knot, tighten as much as you like.

[MickD]

14 hours ago, txchaser said:

@MickD I'm curious if 1) you have anything further after some time has elapsed and 2) were you using 8-carrier braid? I ask about #2 because most of it is slick enough I've had to make some tweaks here and there to get good knots with the FG, especially on hard leader. 

I use both 12 carrier braid (Hitena Pure Line 21 pound test and 15 pound test) and 4 carrier Power Pro and Beyond Braid.  I really don't see a difference relative to knot integrity.  I still believe that adding two half hitches, stoutly tightened, makes the Alberto super reliable.  I am using it more and more and getting less and less experience with the FG.  My experience with the FG concludes  that it's a better knot for leaders 15 and above than it is for lighter test leaders. It may be because there isn't enough thickness in the lighter test leaders to get a good mechanical interlock between the braid and the leaders.  Reference my old photos above on how the braid embeds into the leader deforming it greatly.

[Maggiesmaster]

I join 30 lb braid  to 12 lb flouro  or mono with a Shin knot.  I believe it’s a little more narrow than an Alberto knot, and maybe a bit easier to tie.  I haven’t had it come undone yet.  Adding a drop  of superglue just makes the knot harder to pass through the guides.

[MickD]

Funny how different people react differently to different knots.  The Shin looks like a good knot, should stay tight, but while some find it easy to tie, I just cannot seem to get it, and cannot control the loop while trying to wrap the leader loop.  I find the Alberto much easier to tie.  

[Team9nine]

25 minutes ago, MickD said:

Funny how different people react differently to different knots.  The Shin looks like a good knot, should stay tight, but while some find it easy to tie, I just cannot seem to get it, and cannot control the loop while trying to wrap the leader loop.  I find the Alberto much easier to tie.  

 

From the video I saw of Shin tying his knot, it is just a “lazy Alberto,” with 10 wraps going up instead of 5 up/5 down or whatever combo you use. Took me a bit to realize it, but watch it slow (and repeatedly), then imagine tying it in reverse (backwards). It then looks like line through loop, 10 wraps up, then tag back through loop.

 

Anyone else agree?

[MickD]

I think what you call the "lazy Alberto" is actually an Albright, isn't it?  This knot, the shin, is similar but taking the line through a loop in the braid makes it a different knot, and should make it less likely to unravel.