What you get for and outboard mechanic today.

[Way2slow]

Trying to help my neighbors daughter, I rebuilding the 90hp Merc she blew (destroyed number two cylinder) on her pontoon.  Was at a fairly large dealership picking up a part and the parts man that has known me for years commented about it has been a long time, and I was explaining to him why.  A mechanic that near by and started offering me suggestions on things I should check.  I very quickly realized, he didn't even know how to two stroke motor works when he started his explanation.  Started off saying on the intake stroke it may not have been pulling enough fuel into the cylinder.  Rather than get into a useless discussion, I let him finish his spill and went on my way and feeling glad he didn't have to work on anything of mine. 

A quick 101 on how a two stroke actually works.  They don't have valves like a four stroke, they have holes (ports) in the sides of the cylinder the let the fuel/air mixture into and the exhaust gas out of the cylinder.  Reed valve engines have flapper type reeds that open and close depending on which side has the lower pressure.  Rotary valve engines have a disk with holes the crank is turning to open and close. 

We will start the top of the stroke and the fuel/air mixture is in the cylinder, the spark plug fires and drive the piston down until the exhaust port hole opens and the gasses start exiting the cylinder.  During this time, the reed or rotary valves are closed and the piston coming down is pressuring the crank case that's full of fuel/air mixture is being pressurized.  A few degrees rotation past the exhaust port, the intake ports start to open.  The pressurize charge is being forced into the cylinder hat high velocity, where it continues to push the exhaust gasses out.  As the piston start to come back up, it covers the holes of the intake ports and starts puling fuel/air mixture into the crankcase (technically atmospheric pressure is pushing it in) and just at the perfect moment on the way back up, the piston covers the exhaust port before the gas/air mixture charge can escape out it.  (there are pressure waves and other stuff involved at that point but this is just the basic). As the piston continues toward the top, it's pulling more charge into the crankcase through the intake system.  When it gets to the top, the plug fires and the process starts all over again. 

This the name TWO STROKE,  the piston on the down stroke is doing the exhaust and intake in that one stroke, the piston goes up, compresses the fuel/air, has combustion and starts all over.

Four Stroke, on the compression stroke it fires,  The piston goes down and comes back up to push the exhaust out.  Then goes down to pull a new charge in, then goes back up to compress and fire on that, so l have two down strokes and two up strokes for completer combustion.

 

[Guitarfish]

Wish I had a neighbor that had some 2 stroke rebuild skills.  I have a 1986 Evinrude 70hp that I bought from a guy for $200.  He says another guy tried to rebuild it and then couldn't get it started.  I'm going to scope it and see if it has new pistons.

 

But, yeah on the bluff and buster mechanic.  

[Tennessee Boy]

That’s pretty bad.  I’m certainly not a mechanic and don’t attempt anything more complicated than an oil change but I learned the difference between a two stroke and a four stroke when I was a kid doing 4H.

[Way2slow]

On that 70hp, check the compression.  If it has reasonable compression, compression, I can probably walk you though the steps needed to check out why it won't start.

As for looking at the pistons, that won't accomplish much.  Like this motor I'm doing, I'm only boring one cylinder and replacing one piston and installing new rings on the other two.  The person that did yours may have just installed new rings and not put new pistons in it. 

This is where you get into all the different gray areas of two stroke motors.  When someone says they freshened it up, that means they probably just installed a new set of rings.  When they say the rebuilt it, that can be a whole host of things, from just rings, to one or a couple new pistons, to being bored and all new pistons, but reused all the old bearings, or some of them or could have even replaced all the bearings.

A remanufactured engine is 'supposed" to be bored and have all new piston, bearings, basically all moving parts except the crank and rods, and those are inspected to ensure they still meet factory spec's.

 

If all the sleeves mic out to be good with only one or two thousands honing, and piston mic out good, then it's a very common practice just to slap a new set of rings on them.  If bearings look good, and have no pitting or blue tint, they will thousands and thousands of hours, so just to do a freshen up, it's very common to reuse them.  However though, you have to know what you are looking at and looking for to determine their condition.

 

I will say, it would scare me to know someone not knowing what they were doing built a OMC motor, Johnson and Evinrude.  The big end on the rods are broken in half to make the bearing cap.  There is a special, very expensive tool used to align them when installing them.  This can be done without the tool, if you know how.  If not, the bearing can destroy the rod and crank.

[Guitarfish]

Well, I'm going to keep you in mind when I get to it.  I'm just retired (2nd week) and get to play with my boat finally.

 

Thanks for the info.

[Richard Rives]

congrats on the retirement!

[Way2slow]

The funny thing retiring.  When I first retired, I picked all kinds of new hobbies looking for something to do with all that free time on my hands. Nine years later, I don't have enough time to do half the stuff I want to do.

[CountryboyinDC]

I am amazed when I know more that the person that has been sent to help me, although in the case of @Way2slow and an outboard engine, that's hardly surprising.  I, like @Tennessee Boyearned about the difference between 2 and 4 cycle engines in FFA, but also from my dad who was a turboprop mechanic in the Air Force (U.S. Army Air Force then) and for a time in the civilian world.  But I'm definitely not a mechanic, carpenter, or a preacher.  And I've had experiences where I know more about the way a transfer case works, where to put flashing on a window, and what's in the Bible than some of the people I've encountered in those respective professions lately.  Makes you wonder.

[Bankc]

A lot of these jobs that don't require certification have a lot of people like this working in them.  And even some that do.  I can't tell you how many times I've had a similar conversation with an auto mechanic, utilities repair person, consumer electronics repair person, computer repair person, roofer, etc.  I've even talked to a few HVAC, plumbers, and electricians who didn't know what they were talking about, and those jobs are supposed to have certification processes to weed those people out!  My house had passed at least 3 inspections before I bought it.  In the ten years that I've owned it, I've had to do a lot of electrical work to it due to improvements and remodeling.  And every time I do, I am aggravated and appalled at how many code violations I have to correct!  

 

Unfortunately, this world is more about what you can convince people you know and who you know than it is about what you actually know and how well you can apply it.  There are a lot of mechanics out there that will just start replacing stuff at random until it works.  And then they charge you for all of the parts and labor that it took for them to hunt down the actual problem.  Their only real skill is sounding convincing when they tell you how many things they found "wrong".  

[MN Fisher]

I'm just lucky the guy across the street is a mechanic. His day job is jet-engine mechanic for Sun Country, his 'part-time home' job is general mechanic for all vehicles - cars, trucks, motorcycles, ATVs, boats.

 

He does work on my truck for parts-cost and a case of beer - part of the payback for letting him park his 23' Jet boat in my backyard as he doesn't have a spot to park it in his yard.

[roadwarrior]

Sweet deal for both of you!

[Way2slow]

Oh, I'm not even going to get into that long dark tunnel of maintenance technicians, mechanics, specialist, or what ever the fancy title they have pinned on them to make it sound like they are experts in their field.  Some are, but from what I've seen over my lifetime of doing things, a whole lot are not.   I had a very broad work history from general maintenance, hydraulics and pneumatics, certified welder, lead electrician, lead millwright, maintenance superintendent, HVAC, degree in electronics, industrial equipment service tech, insure sales and financial adviser, just to name some.  Then throw in all my hobbies, from boats, cars, Radio Control planes a helicopters, baking (yep,baking), making Native American Style flutes, electronics, machinist, shooting, gunsmith and a number of others, there just ain't a whole lot I don't know how to do.  I recon I should also mention 22 years of military in the Air Force, but I was 28 when I jointed that. 

I guess it was in my genes, both of my grandfather's were highly thought of maintenance superintendents, one in the cotton mills, one in a manufacturing plant.  My biological father was an excellent mechanic also, with a deck of cards of pair of dice.  He could cheat you everyway under the sun.  Professional gambler was all he ever did.  About the only thing he ever taught me was how to gamble, and then why not to, because of how easy it was to get cheated and never know it.  The person I refer to as my dad was actually my stepfather, but was more of a father to me and anyone would ever hope to have.

I have always had a thing about how something worked.  When I was a kid, wind up clocks didn't stand a chance, I couldn't resist taking one apart to see how it worked.  By the time I was 10, I was finally able to take them apart and put them back together again.  At 11, I had a lawn mower repair business going.  I would collect all the mowers people put on the street for the trash truck or people had around and didn't want them.  I would repair them and sell them for a few bucks.  Then people started bringing them to me to repair or asking me to repair theirs.  If I saw the hood up on a car or one on jack stands, you could bet I was going to find a way to be under it.  By the time I was 17, I was already a very competitive drag racer and go cart racer.  At 19 I was into circle track racing and boat racing.

Back then, I was able to go to work at a service station and got my social security card when I was 13.  Even though I worked a steady job form the time I was 13 and was driving my own car then (just wasn't allow to drive in the city), my main source of income from the time I was 15 to 19 was hauling moonshine. I was doing 80 to 120 gallons a week at a $1 per gallon.  That was BIG bucks back then.

 

WOW, I guess I got a little long winded.

[riverbasser]

Well you opened the door so I can't help but ask. Got an issue that's had me scratching my head for quite awhile.

 

Got a 97 mariner that will crank and idle fairly easily first thing in the morning with a little choke. After stopping to fish for 30 mins or longer it is harder to crank than when I first put in water. If I choke it at this time it will flood. Always have good batteries and it has never not started for me but takes quite a bit of cranking for me to get started. One day my batteries are going to let me down. All new fuel line, rebuilt diaphragm pump, checked for intake leaks. Compression numbers look good. Dont believe it is a fuel issue. Cannot replicate on the hose at home. Makes me think it is something internally worn.

 

Any thoughts?

[Way2slow]

My first thought is carburetors.  It's not possible to diagnose very many fuel or ignition related problems with the motor out of the water or without a load on it.  For the fist part of the throttle movement, you are only advancing the timing and the motor will turn way too many rpms before it ever gets into actual throttle opening.  The second problem, there is no back pressure on the exhaust, making the motor idle a lot higher on the hose than in the lake.   So, what it boils down to, forget trying to analyze most anything other than a totally dead cylinder on the hose.

I will also say, mercury carbs are not real easy to adjust, and I don't have enough experience with them to help you with adjusting or cleaning them.

There are a couple other problems I would check if it was and OMC, but understand, I'm not as experienced with the merc's as the OMC, and not sure how to tell where and what to look for.

[Shimano_1]

My dad and an older friend of ours both have 95 model boats. One with a Johnson fast strike and one with a 150 merc. Both have been down for a month needing repairs. We used to have an older gentleman that worked on them and he passed a few months ago. Now there seems to be no one locally that can or will work on these older motors. We were discussing the other day how its almost worth having a new one if you can afford it simply for this reason. The good mechanics seem to be a lost art and we don't know much about motors. Doesn't surprise me at all to read these stories.  I'm sure most of the newer motors tell a computer whats wrong and its all just plug and play. Kinda sad considering how resilient the old boat motors are with proper care

[rejesterd]

53 minutes ago, Shimano_1 said:

Kinda sad considering how resilient the old boat motors are with proper care

The other side to this is how pollutive older motors are.  Eventually, most waterways won't allow them, no matter how well-cared for they've been. So for a marina to take the time and train their staff to repair them isn't really practical for the business. 

 

And I wouldn't say newer EFI engines are plug-and-play.  I hook my engine up to the laptop, but it's like a car.. it just gives you codes.  Some of those are helpful, but they usually don't give you a smoking gun.  You still have to troubleshoot. 

[Shimano_1]

4 hours ago, rejesterd said:

The other side to this is how pollutive older motors are.  Eventually, most waterways won't allow them, no matter how well-cared for they've been. So for a marina to take the time and train their staff to repair them isn't really practical for the business. 

 

And I wouldn't say newer EFI engines are plug-and-play.  I hook my engine up to the laptop, but it's like a car.. it just gives you codes.  Some of those are helpful, but they usually don't give you a smoking gun.  You still have to troubleshoot. 

I agree with all that for sure but around here seems like people are causing more harm to waterways than any boat motor. Ive got a new 4 stroke and so far I'm loving everything about it and I'm sure its definitely better on the lakes and everything else. Just not confident it'll still be running in 25 years or longer.  Time will tell

[Way2slow]

Computer self diagnostic is great, when it's the part the compter is monitoring is what the problem is.  However, computer self diagnostics is not 100%.  That's when you wind up getting billed for several different parts, because the technician doesn't know how to trouble shoot the problem.  He replaces what computer says, but that didn't fix it, so he replaces another part, and maybe even another until he finally finds the one that was really the problem.  However, to justify this, you get told that first part was bad, but the last part was what caused all those other parts to fail, even though there was nothing wrong with them and had they known how to actually troubleshoot, they would not have arbitrarily just slapped the part in.

The way the newer automobiles are a prime example of this.  They can have seven or eight computers talking to one central computer, and very few technicians actually know how to troubleshoot the whole system.  They just start slapping parts in until they find the real problem. 

Two years ago, I bought a Mercedes for $500.  The guy had taken the car to the dealership and two independent mechanics.  He had spent $2,300 and none of them could get the car started.  Each telling him it's was going some stupid amount to fix it.  The dealer quoted him $6000, the two other were around $4,000, so I gave him $100 more than a junk yard offered him. I never told him it cost me $65 for fix it and I sold it for $6,000. 

[Mbirdsley]

No, it is bad trying to find a boat mechanic  to hire.  Grandpa goes through this all the time for his place in northern Michigan.  He has one really good mechanic who can fix anything but, he’s in his early to mid 50’s.  He tries to have 2 at all times but, he’s had a couple end up going to jail for past or current issues. Or they just disappear.  
 

He will hire one and than finds out they don’t know what the hell they are doing or like I said thier court Date is next week haha 

16 hours ago, rejesterd said:

The other side to this is how pollutive older motors are.  Eventually, most waterways won't allow them, no matter how well-cared for they've been. So for a marina to take the time and train their staff to repair them isn't really practical for the business. 

 

And I wouldn't say newer EFI engines are plug-and-play.  I hook my engine up to the laptop, but it's like a car.. it just gives you codes.  Some of those are helpful, but they usually don't give you a smoking gun.  You still have to troubleshoot. 

This has nothing to do with it. Well maybe in California but, they out law everything. Will older 2-stroke motors go away sure however, it’s going to be 50 years before these 2 strokes built in 80’s and 90’s  are too old to work. There are probably a couple million 2-stroke motors in Michigan alone.  There is plenty of reason for marinas to train mechanics in how to fix them.  Biggest issue is you can not find outboard mechanics. When you do find a good one they want big money.  In Michigan you face getting laid off for 3-5 months every winter  
 

The issue is with out getting political.  We have beaten it into every bodies heads that they need to Go to college.  If you want to tinker and work on out-boards “you will never amount to any thing”.  Luckily the trend is starting to reverse its self with more high school and C.C programs 

[Way2slow]

A college degree is just a piece of paper to help open doors in a career field you might want to go into.  Now, if you want to go into a legal, medical or some other professional field that requires, it's hard to get around not having one. Yea, there's self study but very few have the fortitude to try that.

However, if you have the credentials and a proven history to back up what you know you can bypass the college degree in a lot of cases.  Even the degree doesn't prove you know your stuff.  There are a lot of doctors, lawyers and other professionals that just use that degree for proof of knowledge and don't really know crap.  Plus, not everyone wants to work with their hands.  Sitting behind a desk with a computer in front of them is about the extent of what they want to do.

Before I joined the Air Force, I was a maintenance superintendent at a huge particle board plant.  This position normally required a college degree and an engineering background.  I didn't have one, but I had proven my knowledge and skills there.  I helped build the plant and was hired on as lead millwright when they started production, and proved time and again I was much more knowledgeable than their lead electrician.  Since I couldn't be lead millwright and lead electrician, they gave me a pay cut and made me Maintenance superintend. (I went from $6.50 an hour, plus overtime, (in 1974) and 90+ hours a week to a straight salary. 

Now, I did have two years of basic studies at a junior college but couldn't afford to continue in one of the major universities.  All that did was give me enough credits to make getting my electronics degree while in the AF a lot faster and easier.  Even while in the Air Force, I was placed in charge of several special programs that normally had officers in charge of and I was an enlistee.

The biggest problem today is kids are treated like kids until they graduated from high school.  They have absolutely know skills other than video games, and then are expected to go to work.  Not many places looking for video game players.  I went to work in a paying job when I was 13, that's almost impossible today.  I had a very well established skillset and four years of work history when I graduated high school 

[rejesterd]

 

8 hours ago, Mbirdsley said:

This has nothing to do with it. Well maybe in California but, they out law everything. Will older 2-stroke motors go away sure however, it’s going to be 50 years before these 2 strokes built in 80’s and 90’s  are too old to work. There are probably a couple million 2-stroke motors in Michigan alone.  There is plenty of reason for marinas to train mechanics in how to fix them.  Biggest issue is you can not find outboard mechanics. When you do find a good one they want big money.  In Michigan you face getting laid off for 3-5 months every winter  

See.. you saying "they want big money" is exactly why marinas don't bother serving this market.  These are old engines that are very simple, and very cheap to fix.  That's the main reason people hold onto them. So they don't want to pay lots of money to fix them.. even though that's what it costs to make it profitable enough for someone to do the work and make a living.

[Mbirdsley]

26 minutes ago, rejesterd said:

 

See.. you saying "they want big money" is exactly why marinas don't bother serving this market.  These are old engines that are very simple, and very cheap to fix.  That's the main reason people hold onto them. So they don't want to pay lots of money to fix them.. even though that's what it costs to make it profitable enough for someone to do the work and make a living.

Your going to pay the same money to have a 4 stroke fixed. there is plenty of money in it. We charge 65 dollars an hour.  Every marina up here works on them. The main problem is finding the guys with the skills to work on even a 4 stroke and those who want to learn . Tohatsu just came out with a brand new 2 stroke just isn’t EPA compliant yet 

[Way2slow]

$65 and hour, that's very cheap in my neck of the woods, it's closer to $100.  However you can't totally blame the dealership.  Lets face it, there business is rather seasonal.  Their over head is massive and the pool of skilled labor is very limited.  The main thing is, if you can find one that is somewhat honest, you can consider yourself very lucky.  Lets face it, unless you have my skills, you are at the mercy of someone else when it comes to having anything repaired, so honesty is the only thing you can hope for. 

 

[dickenscpa]

You think boating/engine is bad - I'm an avid bowhunter but also very involved in target archery. It's a given that the bowtech at a big box store is a high school kid that was in the shoe dept yesterday but the techs at so called "pro" shops are horrible. I wound up investing in a bow press, draw board, arrow saw, fletching jig, etc. I do everything down to building my own arrows. I reload for every caliber I shoot as well.

 

I remember when I was little my Dad was working on our lawn mower and he looked at me and told me that whatever I bought that would need maintenance or be fixed in the future, learn EVERYTHING I could about it and take care of it myself 'cause no one cared about my crap like I did.

[Fin S]

Sometimes knowing who NOT to take your boat to is just as valuable as knowing who you can trust.