Can a reel affect the depth a deep crank can go?

[pauldconyers]

This question is somewhat misleading. Yes I know that line type, line diameter, amount of line on the spool and other factors can affect the depth a crank could hit but my question is a little more complicated than that.

 

I am trying to decide between two difference reels as to which will be my deep crank reel. One is a Lews Tournament MB 5.6:1 with a 23" IPT and the other is a Shimano Curado K 6.2:1 with a 26" IPT. To compare them I put 12# Big Game on both and filled the spools up completely and used a SK 6XD as the test plug.

 

While my comparison tests will probably continue I came across a weird deal which leads me to my question. They both cast roughly the same distance I think but I will say it seemed the line came off the Shimano better. During the retrieve the Shimano certainly felt more "solid" and smooth with the Lews more "geary" and sort of "looser." (I put oversized Winn knobs on the Lews and I REALLY wish I could figure out a way to put them on that Shimano!)

 

Here is my question. The Shimano was much smoother during retrieve and while the Lews felt more "geary" there was noticeably a lot more "resistance" during the retrieve which I felt like might be because it was diving deeper and that is what got me thinking about this. Again same rod, line and plug on both with the only difference being the reel itself. The Lews is a tad slower 23" IPT vs 26" IPT but I would not think a slower and possibly stronger retrieve would allow for more wobble or "digging" power to the bait to get down more. And while the Shimano was certainly smoother I would not think the reel would somehow limit the depth the bait could get down to but with the Lews there was certainly a lot more resistance, which I took to mean and feel like it was getting down deeper. Casting distance and the ability to achieve maximum depth are probably the 2 biggest factors here but I would really like to hear your guys' thoughts here.

[jbsoonerfan]

A lot of guys go with a 5 gear for deep cranks, any guesses why?

[Shimano_1]

I would assume the curado is getting the plug to depth quicker if you're reeling the same speed.  I dont do a lot of deep cranking but of those 2 I'd go with the curado. Ive concluded I don't want anything slower than a 6 ratio for anything I fish including deep cranks.  I agree the curado feels much better with a load on it as well

[garroyo130]

In my experience, for anything up to a 6XD, a 6 gear reeled in at a moderately fast pace helps the lure hit bottom fastest. 

 

A 5 gear will help get it down there with less resistance but IMO that really isnt needed with modern crankbaits/reels until you get into the ultra deep divers.

 

If with your question you are referring to max depth, i dont believe an average cast gives enough distance for gear ratio to make a difference in overall depth. Gear ratio may help get it down quicker and keep it there longer, but line diameter will probably be the biggest factor in terms of maximum depth achieved. 

 

5 gear ratio reels also seem to transmit feel better ... not sure how else to describe this but i definitely feel like i get more feedback out of a 5 gear reel which i actually prefer when fishing cover. 

[Team9nine]

Within the normal range of typical cranking rates, speed makes no noticeable difference on diving depth. 

[roadwarrior]

Maximum depth = trolling or a fast drift.

[pauldconyers]

I just don't know what to think. The Lews was CLEARLY putting off a ton more vibration on my hands which I took as "resistance" and in my mind that meant it was digging down further. I would have to go try again to remember if it was just on the initial "dive" it takes or what. Casting distance and maximum depth on a retrieve while casting are the two main things here in my mind. Assuming ALL else is the same in the equation (other then the 2 reels) About the only way I could really know if try to find and area that I knew the depth and try both and see if the Lews hit the bottom and the Shimano didn't. I just don't know how one reel would be capable to getting to a lower depth than the other in this scenario.

52 minutes ago, roadwarrior said:

Maximum depth = trolling or a fast drift.

Yeah, I should have specified I meant maximum depth while casting.

1 hour ago, Shimano_1 said:

I would assume the curado is getting the plug to depth quicker if you're reeling the same speed.  I dont do a lot of deep cranking but of those 2 I'd go with the curado. Ive concluded I don't want anything slower than a 6 ratio for anything I fish including deep cranks.  I agree the curado feels much better with a load on it as well

That is a thought. I will have to try again and see if the Lews was only really giving off so much vibration on "the way down" or throughout the whole retrieve. If a crank was coming back at a slower speed would that put off more vibration or hypothetically would a faster retrieve produce more vibration?

1 hour ago, garroyo130 said:

In my experience, for anything up to a 6XD, a 6 gear reeled in at a moderately fast pace helps the lure hit bottom fastest. 

 

A 5 gear will help get it down there with less resistance but IMO that really isnt needed with modern crankbaits/reels until you get into the ultra deep divers.

 

If with your question you are referring to max depth, i dont believe an average cast gives enough distance for gear ratio to make a difference in overall depth. Gear ratio may help get it down quicker and keep it there longer, but line diameter will probably be the biggest factor in terms of maximum depth achieved. 

 

5 gear ratio reels also seem to transmit feel better ... not sure how else to describe this but i definitely feel like i get more feedback out of a 5 gear reel which i actually prefer when fishing cover. 

I know that 5's seem to be the main preference and that is why I bought the Lews Tournament MB with a 5.6:1 and 23" IPT. I figured the Shimano Curado K 6.2:1 with a 26" IPT was not all that much faster and I liked the idea of being slightly better equipped to catch up with a fish swimming right at me and also being able to move it a bit faster when trying to induce more of a reaction strike. I really thought about the Lews BB1 everyone loves. Might cast further then these other 2, IDK. It was really hard for me to get past the 21" IPT, though.

[Team9nine]

7 minutes ago, pauldconyers said:

I just don't know what to think. The Lews was CLEARLY putting off a ton more vibration on my hands which I took as "resistance" and in my mind that meant it was digging down further. I would have to go try again to remember if it was just on the initial "dive" it takes or what. Casting distance and maximum depth on a retrieve while casting are the two main things here in my mind. Assuming ALL else is the same in the equation (other then the 2 reels) About the only way I could really know if try to find and area that I knew the depth and try both and see if the Lews hit the bottom and the Shimano didn't. I just don't know how one reel would be capable to getting to a lower depth than the other in this scenario.

 

It's not. That said, I don't know how accurately you measured casting distance between the two reels, or what lengths you were actually casting, as it doesn't take but 5'-10' of difference in cast length to make a deep diving bait run a foot deeper (or shallower).

[pauldconyers]

4 hours ago, Team9nine said:

It's not. That said, I don't know how accurately you measured casting distance between the two reels, or what lengths you were actually casting, as it doesn't take but 5'-10' of difference in cast length to make a deep diving bait run a foot deeper (or shallower).

I parked the boat and made about 10 casts with each reel on the same rod. This was close to a tree line so there was an easy reference mark close to compare to. I guess it is more that the Lews reel is giving me a long more vibration or force transmitted back. Correct or not I correlate that to the lip and body of the crank digging and being forced down deeper by the water pressure. Not near the same feeling with the Shimano. Even being a "nicer" reel I see no way the Shimano is some how dampening the vibration. That's why I was wondering if somehow the same exact crank was running deeper on the Lews than the Shimano for no reason I could fathom.

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, pauldconyers said:

I parked the boat and made about 10 casts with each reel on the same rod. This was close to a tree line so there was an easy reference mark close to compare to. I guess it is more that the Lews reel is giving me a long more vibration or force transmitted back. Correct or not I correlate that to the lip and body of the crank digging and being forced down deeper by the water pressure. Not near the same feeling with the Shimano. Even being a "nicer" reel I see no way the Shimano is some how dampening the vibration. That's why I was wondering if somehow the same exact crank was running deeper on the Lews than the Shimano for no reason I could fathom.

Same line, same bait, same cast length...same answer - no. You can search around on the web for articles related to a couple books; Precision Casting and Precision Trolling which will answer this and many other crankbait related questions, one of their most asked questions being running depth related to speed. I’m guessing just a “feel” difference between reels and gearing. 

[NOC 1]

17 hours ago, pauldconyers said:

I parked the boat and made about 10 casts with each reel on the same rod. This was close to a tree line so there was an easy reference mark close to compare to. I guess it is more that the Lews reel is giving me a long more vibration or force transmitted back. Correct or not I correlate that to the lip and body of the crank digging and being forced down deeper by the water pressure. Not near the same feeling with the Shimano. Even being a "nicer" reel I see no way the Shimano is some how dampening the vibration. That's why I was wondering if somehow the same exact crank was running deeper on the Lews than the Shimano for no reason I could fathom.

If the Lews reel is somehow allowing the bait to "waggle" more (it isn't) then you would be getting less depth from it. The quickest and deepest dive takes place with the lure lip facing straight down. The lip is going to be providing the same amount of force given the same speed and any sideways motion is using some of the force to move sideways and not to go down.

 

Yes, the speed will make a difference because the downward force is a function of the surface area and shape of the lip, the angle of the lip, and the speed of the water trying to move around it. Just the same as the way that an airplane wing provides more lift the faster it moves through the air. That is why a jet liner will not fly at 40 mph but will lift itself into the air at 130 mph. Or more to the point, it is why a pilot can pull the rudder all the way to the side while he taxi's on the ground while it is a very bad idea at 200 mph.

 

But, more speed doesn't mean the lure can gp deeper. It just means that it will go to a given depth faster. the limiting factor on how deep any diving lure can go is the angle of the line pulling it. If you could keep the line strictly horizontal, the lure could dive for as many miles as you wanted it to. But the reality is that while the lip is digging down, the line is at the same time pulling the lure upwards and the greater the angle of the line, the more it does so. so there is a point in the cast where the the up-force out-pulls the lip and you are then pulling the lure up.

 

That is why to get a lure truly deep you need to troll using a outrigger cannonball weight or a maybe a Dipsy Diver set-up.

 

Have you considered the the vibration in the Lews is simply because the Shimano is a smoother reel?

[garroyo130]

1 hour ago, NOC 1 said:

Have you considered the the vibration in the Lews is simply because the Shimano is a smoother reel?

Personal experience tells me ratio does affect the feedback you get from lures. I have a 6.3:1 and 5.4:1 fuego and when fished with the same lure on the same rod, the 5.4 definitely gives more feedback.

 

When Ive tested to actually hit bottom though, the 6.3 gets there quicker.

[WRB]

IPT is a advertised estimate that I have never been able to duplicate using measured line. You say both reels are filled the same. Go to a football field and cast your 6XD crankbait. Take a sharpie pen and mark the line at the rod tip then carefully turn the reel handle 1 full 360 degree turn and mark the line agian at the rod tip. Measure the distance between the 2 marks = actual IPT at casting distance. You can do this before casting by releasing the lure to the ground repeating the 2 marks and measure.

My guess is you have no idea how deep the crankbait runs. You can find a flat point and set out a marker bouy 10' and 2nd at 14' deep, cast between the markers past them about 20 yards then retrieve the crank bait until it hits bottom.

The difference of vibration may be the difference in gear drive train and level wind smoothness under pressure.

Tom

PS, every crankbait has a maximum diving depth at optimized speed and line type/diameter.

[MN Fisher]

27 minutes ago, WRB said:

IPT is a advertised estimate that I have never been able to duplicate using measured line.

Who knows, Tom. They might be measuring the IPT using 2# Trilene, which a 50 yd cast won't affect it as much as a 50yd cast using 15# Big Game - spool won't have 'emptied' near as much.