Too much fishing

[Moto]

How easy is it to "fish out" a pond? In particular I'm referring to a pond where many (a s*** load) of largemouth bass are harvested. 

[WRB]

How many adult size bass per acre can live in a pond?

Acre is about a football field in size.

Tom

Answer; about 6 per acre.

 

[Spankey]

5 hours ago, Mottel said:

How easy is it to "fish out" a pond? In particular I'm referring to a pond where many (a s*** load) of largemouth bass are harvested. 

I don’t eat them and I don’t catch them and bring them back home to my hood and show them off. 

[jimmyjoe]

   A lot less than one season.       jj

[Bankc]

I'd say it's not as easy as you'd think.  As the fishing pressure goes up, the bite goes down.  Eventually, the remaining fish will be pretty weary of anything that you throw at them.  So it'll fish like it's empty, but there will still be plenty of bass in there.  

 

Now, what will really destroy a pond is some kind of fish kill event.  Something like a disease, infestation, pollution, or something that causes the oxygen levels to plummet.  Those can be really, really hard to come back from.  Even if the cause is removed and the pond restocked, there's usually a balance in the ecosystem that's been broken and can be extremely difficult to re-establish without draining it all and starting over from square one.  With smaller bodies of water, small events can have big consequences.  

[Vilas15]

9 minutes ago, Bankc said:

I'd say it's not as easy as you'd think.  As the fishing pressure goes up, the bite goes down.  Eventually, the remaining fish will be pretty weary of anything that you throw at them.  So it'll fish like it's empty, but there will still be plenty of bass in there.

Fish can't become wary and react to fishing pressure if theyre kept the very first time theyre caught. Fishing gets harder after lots of catch and release, but how's a fish suppose to recognize a bait without ever being caught?

[MIbassyaker]

36 minutes ago, Vilas15 said:

Fish can't become wary and react to fishing pressure if they're kept the very first time theyre caught. Fishing gets harder after lots of catch and release, but how's a fish suppose to recognize a bait without ever being caught?

I would expect this to be true of individual fish, but populations can also become wary over generations via genetic selection from catch and keep practices. Bass exhibit genetic variability in their disposition to strike lures, and if willing biters are regularly caught and removed, while the warier fish are not; the fish who are dispositionally less-willing to strike lures end up taking over the population.

[Kev-mo]

there was a study done (i could find it if i really had to....) it may have even been discussed on here at some point.... they found that only about 25% of fish would eat lures. they took it further with population and second generation fish etc. but the theory and i believe the conclusions were that once you removed most of the fish that ate lures the remaining fish were not inclined to be caught therefore the population was somewhat "protected". take it for what's it worth with controlled conditions etc.

 

[Vilas15]

Any theories about bass learning to avoid lures (and that trait being genetic ?) is thrown out when you consider areas that are vulnerable to being fished out likely have plenty of people using live bait. To think humans can't overfish even a small pond is asinine and the only reason we have such strong populations in most areas of the US is due to regs and catch & release ethics. Millions of walleye are stocked just to make sure theres enough for people to catch them since 90% of anglers keep any legal size fish they catch (and some illegal). Plenty of people can share stories of ponds that are decimated when they're discovered by the bucket brigade.

[MIbassyaker]

2 hours ago, Vilas15 said:

Any theories about bass learning to avoid lures (and that trait being genetic ?) is thrown out when you consider areas that are vulnerable to being fished out likely have plenty of people using live bait. To think humans can't overfish even a small pond is asinine and the only reason we have such strong populations in most areas of the US is due to regs and catch & release ethics. Millions of walleye are stocked just to make sure theres enough for people to catch them since 90% of anglers keep any legal size fish they catch (and some illegal). Plenty of people can share stories of ponds that are decimated when they're discovered by the bucket brigade.

Without disputing your point that small ponds can be certainly be overfished (I don't disagree with that),  the genetic contribution to variability in lure avoidance among bass is not merely theoretical. See this study, for instance:

https://afspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1577/T06-243.1

 

"Three successive generations of artificially selected largemouth bass were produced from a single experimental study population. Within each generation, individual adult largemouth bass were identified as having either high or low vulnerability to angling through a series of controlled catch‐and‐release angling trials. Individuals of each vulnerability group (high and low) were then selected from that population for breeding to produce the next generation. The response to selection for vulnerability to angling increased with each generation; that is, the magnitude of the difference between the high‐ and low‐vulnerability groups of fish increased with each successive generation. Realized heritability was calculated as 0.146 (r ² = 0.995), indicating that the vulnerability of largemouth bass to angling is indeed a heritable trait. Our results indicate that recreational angling has the potential to alter the gene pool of wild fish populations, which may indirectly affect population characteristics such as survival, growth rate, and reproductive output as well as directly affecting angling success rates."

 

It's pretty well-known that individual bass vary along some rudimentary personality traits according to some basic behavioral tendencies. Even in humans, major personality traits are around 40-50% heritable. It would be rather shocking if personality traits of bass were generally less heritable than those of humans.

 

In bass and other members of the sunfish family, the relevant trait seems to be a sort of "boldness" or propensity for risk-taking behavior that seems to vary substantially among individuals in a population. Here's a recent study that was able to differentiate both largemouth and rock bass as a more vulnerable to capture on crankbaits vs. wacky-worms based on an experimental measure of boldness: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135848

 

 

[garroyo130]

5 hours ago, Bankc said:

I'd say it's not as easy as you'd think.  As the fishing pressure goes up, the bite goes down.  Eventually, the remaining fish will be pretty weary of anything that you throw at them.  So it'll fish like it's empty, but there will still be plenty of bass in there.  

 

Now, what will really destroy a pond is some kind of fish kill event.  Something like a disease, infestation, pollution, or something that causes the oxygen levels to plummet.  Those can be really, really hard to come back from.  Even if the cause is removed and the pond restocked, there's usually a balance in the ecosystem that's been broken and can be extremely difficult to re-establish without draining it all and starting over from square one.  With smaller bodies of water, small events can have big consequences.  

 

Back in Ascarete lake in El Paso there were a couple of very VERY slow years for bass fishing. To the point people were catching more catfish than bass when throwing lures. It was kind of assumed that there weren't too many bass in the lake or that they had been fished out. Then, a pretty rough algae bloom hit killing off a ton of fish. To everyones surprise, the dead bass were plentiful.

[RoLo]

10 hours ago, Bankc said:

I'd say it's not as easy as you'd think.  As the fishing pressure goes up, the bite goes down.  Eventually, the remaining fish will be pretty weary of anything that you throw at them.  So it'll fish like it's empty, but there will still be plenty of bass in there.  

 

Now, what will really destroy a pond is some kind of fish kill event.  Something like a disease, infestation, pollution, or something that causes the oxygen levels to plummet.  Those can be really, really hard to come back from.  Even if the cause is removed and the pond restocked, there's usually a balance in the ecosystem that's been broken and can be extremely difficult to re-establish without draining it all and starting over from square one.  With smaller bodies of water, small events can have big consequences.  

Totally agree.

 

A single fish-kill can devastate a waterbody, which includes large and small waters alike.

What it takes mankind several years to accomplish, mother nature can accomplish

in a compressed period of time, when tons of fish carcasses will line the banks. 

 

For sure, it's very possible to fish 'down' a small pond, but fishing 'out' a pond is more illusory than reality.

 

Roger

[geo g]

I would suggest you find other waters to fish for a while.  

[Vilas15]

5 hours ago, MIbassyaker said:

Without disputing your point that small ponds can be certainly be overfished (I don't disagree with that),  the genetic contribution to variability in lure avoidance among bass is not merely theoretical. See this study, for instance:

https://afspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1577/T06-243.1

 

"Three successive generations of artificially selected largemouth bass were produced from a single experimental study population. Within each generation, individual adult largemouth bass were identified as having either high or low vulnerability to angling through a series of controlled catch‐and‐release angling trials. Individuals of each vulnerability group (high and low) were then selected from that population for breeding to produce the next generation. The response to selection for vulnerability to angling increased with each generation; that is, the magnitude of the difference between the high‐ and low‐vulnerability groups of fish increased with each successive generation. Realized heritability was calculated as 0.146 (r ² = 0.995), indicating that the vulnerability of largemouth bass to angling is indeed a heritable trait. Our results indicate that recreational angling has the potential to alter the gene pool of wild fish populations, which may indirectly affect population characteristics such as survival, growth rate, and reproductive output as well as directly affecting angling success rates."

 

It's pretty well-known that individual bass vary along some rudimentary personality traits according to some basic behavioral tendencies. Even in humans, major personality traits are around 40-50% heritable. It would be rather shocking if personality traits of bass were generally less heritable than those of humans.

 

In bass and other members of the sunfish family, the relevant trait seems to be a sort of "boldness" or propensity for risk-taking behavior that seems to vary substantially among individuals in a population. Here's a recent study that was able to differentiate both largemouth and rock bass as a more vulnerable to capture on crankbaits vs. wacky-worms based on an experimental measure of boldness: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135848

 

 

Interesting. I suppose its basically aggressiveness and willingness to take risks. Either you pick your battles or just eat everything you can.  It would take at least a few years for multiple generations to be artificially selected for in a pond, so it would be most vulnerable if it's a secret spot and word gets out quick.

 

4 hours ago, RoLo said:

Totally agree.

 

A single fish-kill can devastate a waterbody, which includes large and small waters alike.

What it takes mankind several years to accomplish, mother nature can accomplish

in a compressed period of time, when tons of fish carcasses will line the banks. 

 

For sure, it's very possible to fish 'down' a small pond, but fishing 'out' a pond is more illusory than reality.

 

Roger

Humans have wiped entire species off the planet. I think we can catch all the bass in a small pond.

[RoLo]

30 minutes ago, Vilas15 said:

Humans have wiped entire species off the planet. I think we can catch all the bass in a small pond.

 

Species that have gone extinct (with or without human intervention) were essentially ill-adapted to planet earth.

A few examples include the dinosaur, ivory-billed woodpecker, pterodactyl and dodo bird.

Bass are highly adaptable animals, and not likely to go extinct before humans (meek shall inherit the earth).

Many waters that have been declared a "dead sea", have made a dramatic comeback (e.g. Lake Erie).

 

Roger

 

[Vilas15]

 

27 minutes ago, RoLo said:

 

Species that have gone extinct (with or without human intervention) were essentially ill-adapted to planet earth.

A few examples include the dinosaur, ivory-billed woodpecker, pterodactyl and dodo bird.

Bass are highly adaptable animals, and not likely to go extinct before humans (meek shall inherit the earth).

Many waters that have been declared a "dead sea", have made a dramatic comeback (e.g. Lake Erie).

 

Roger

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Species_made_extinct_by_human_activities

 

It's crazy how many species are just "ill-adapted" to modern firearms, habitat destruction, chemical pollution.

[MIbassyaker]

Well....let's be clear: we're not talking about extinction of the largemouth bass species here.

 

We're also not talking about massive waterbodies like Lake Erie, which has a surface area of 10k square miles.

 

We're talking about whether bass in a small pond can be overharvested to the point that the population declines.

 

The answer is yes:

 

"One of the best series of studies of the impact of anglers on a relatively small largemouth bass fishery was made many years ago at Ridge Lake, a 14 acre Coles County, Illinois impoundment by Dr. G. W. Bennett. The studies showed this newly opened, un-fished lake, after being subjected to two weeks of fairly heavy pressure, lost over 70% of available adult bass. Fish populations before and after the opening were measured by draining the lake, so there wasn't much error in the initial and final population estimates. A creel agent at a single exit point counted all fish harvested. Similar results have been measured at other newly opened or re-opened ponds, and years ago skilled anglers from the In-Fisherman Magazine staff proved they could completely down-fish a small lake within a few weeks during the spawn.

 

[...]

 

"During the Ridge Lake draw-downs, most of the smaller bluegills were culled and not returned to the lake. The result was almost all of the few remaining adult bass spawned successfully; there was little competition for food, and almost no predation on juvenile bass. A disproportionate and highly abnormal number of bass survived to replenish the fishery. In real ponds with no draw-downs and culling, abundant small bluegills would have decimated nests of the few remaining adult bass, competed with the few surviving bass fry for plankton and insect food, and eaten many more fry. Without draw-down and culling, the Ridge Lake bass fishery would have been ruined by the excessive fish harvest."

 

[SeaCrow]

So....basically what this means is we don't catch the smart ones??

[basser27]

21 hours ago, WRB said:

How many adult size bass per acre can live in a pond?

Acre is about a football field in size.

Tom

Answer; about 6 per acre.

 

Do my 200 acre lake can only support 1200 bass? 

[WRB]

24 minutes ago, basser27 said:

Do my 200 acre lake can only support 1200 bass? 

 

24 minutes ago, basser27 said:

Do my 200 acre lake can only support 1200 bass? 

200 acres to me is a small lake, difference being replenished prey source with inlet-outlet water supply. We as anglers want to catch adult size bass,  not  juevnile bass.

1200 adult size bass isn't that far off and the readon over harvesting can be harmful along with under harvesting juevnile size bass...only so much prey availble.

Tom

[txchaser]

@basser27 When Tom says adult bass I think he means 4lbs+. Maybe a little smaller than that up north. 

[king fisher]

     Any fisheries can be over fished by sport sport fishing.  Even to much catch an release fishing can make the fishing go from good to bad quickly.  Actually  eliminating a species of fish in a particular body of water sport fishing would be next to impossible.  As the fishing pressure gets to the point a person can't catch any fish, then the pressure goes down and hopefully the fishing gets good again.  It may take awhile, or may never come back.    Over harvesting one species of fish may let another species of fish, creature or plant take over to the point the other species can not recover.  Far better to manage the pond so the pressure and population are more stable.   Catch and release is one of the best management tools there is to allow for maximum fishing opportunity, and still maintain a stable population.  Daily, and seasonal bag limits, gear restrictions, fishing hours, seasons, license requirements  and many other management tools are common.  Every pond is different.                                                                                                                  Some ponds actually benefit from keeping more bass.  I recently started fishing a small lake where the manager encourages the local Tilapia fisherman try and remove all the bass they can.  They even net them in the spring trying to eliminate the predation of the tilapia.   At first I thought this was a very stupid management plan.  Fishing is slow,  I might only get a couple bites a day.  After catching a few bass over ten pounds, I decided I wouldn't complain about the commercial fisherman.  Apparently the few bass that survive have little competition,giving them an opportunity to grow very large.  I would guess many private ponds would benefit from keeping more bass, and many public ponds would benefit from more catch and release.  I guess this was a long answer to the  question.  Short answer, yes it is easy to over fish a pond.

[Bankc]

So in conclusion, it depends on what "fish out" means?  Does it mean no fish left, or does it mean no longer able to catch a fish in it?

 

I live near a small lake/large pond that's seen a ton of heavy pressure for decades.  Tons of people frequent it due to it's cleanliness, safety, and convenient location.  It's right off a highway about a mile from the interstate, on the edge of city limits.  I've never been there, even in the dead of winter, where there wasn't at least 4 other cars there fishing on this small 33 acre lake.  Most avid anglers avoid it because it's super hard to catch anything on.  Most of the people who fish it are the twice-a-year type anglers who bring out their Zebco spincasts, red and white bobbers, and a bucket of minnows.  You'd think it was fished out by now.  You'd be crazy to even try.

 

However, it's actually got a lot of large bass.  I've caught a few myself.  They're super hard to catch and you really have to earn them.  But there hasn't been a time that I've gone out there that I haven't seen a bunch of them just swimming around.  

[Caliyak]

if there is cover, trees in the water, cattails and places for bass to hide, the pond will never lose the bass. Bank anglers can't get to those spots to fish. I have a small pond that the good areas are not fished unless on a kayak. So, big bass live in those protected area. I hope this made sense. 

[CrankFate]

Very easy. Fish are getting fished out of every ocean all over the world.