Trouble with Invisx?

[JLewis134]

23 minutes ago, WRB said:

This is Bass Resource a bass fishing forum. 

Here is some more worthless info.

The 1st FC line I used for bass fishing in 1994 was Sunline Shooter, the filler spool FC line available in the US. I still use Shooter.  The 1st FC leader I used was in 1990 Seaguar for off shore tuna and Marlin tournament fishing. I have experience in both fresh and salt water angling using FC line. The early Seagaur FC leader failed by splitting under the stress of fighting big strong fish. Most off shore tournament anglers changed to Soft Steel mono leaders. Today FC has improved leader materials. 

The best FC I found was Black Water Toray High Class but $35 for 82 yards it isn't worth it. There are lots of FC brands that are not well known.

When Trilene came out with FC they had a lot of problems, Vanish being the most notable. Trilene 100% FC was pulled back and relabeled 1 diameter size larger per lb test, i.e.; 12 lb was labeled 10 etc to solve the poor knot strength performance.

As Director of Engineering for a Aerospace company (retired) I have tested every line I used with aerospace Instron to determine knot strength, yield strength, impact strength etc at various rates of loading. Plus 25 years of on the water experince. 

Today I use 3 mono lines; Maxima 5 lb Ultra Green, 12 lb Berkley Big Game and 11 & 25 lb Sunline Armillo Nylon. 2 FC lines 12 lb Sunline Shooter and 7 lb Sniper based on on the water performance.

What is your qualifications?

Tom

 

HAHA

 

22 minutes ago, Heartland said:

I have studied the information on FC and Mono stretch at length, they do both end up with about the same amount of stretch at comparable strengths but they do so in different manners.  In other words the stretch characteristics of the two different materials are what you figure, different.   

 

Mono line by the data tends to stretch in a fairly parabolic manner to breaking strength where FC line tends to reach a point before it begins to stretch but then does so a little less parabolic to breaking strength.

 

This has helped me make my choice in line.  

You are correct! 

 

28 minutes ago, Rusty_Shackleford said:

Are you sure about FC stretching the same amount of mono under the same load? I have a lot of trouble believing that. Its also a vague statement.  Different fluros have different amounts of stretch, same thing with mono.  Generally as a rule fluro has less stretch than mono.  Once you notice a good amount of stretch in fluro when its under load its not far from breaking.  Even if you were to compare the lowest stretch mono to the highest stretch fluro my money would be on the fluro having less stretch. 

Exactly! 100% agree. I'm sure WRB will come with his "scientific" blanket statements and anecdotal evidence lol

[GetFishorDieTryin]

5 hours ago, jimmyjoe said:

   Please allow me to throw a monkey wrench into this conversation.

   I have 12 lb. InvizX on a Curado 70, and it performs fine. But one of the reasons it performs fine is that the rod is a M/MF crankin' rod. I re-read your original post, and you don't mention the rod that you're using.

   Personally, I would NOT put FC line on a hard-tip rod. I know, I know .... some people do and they have good luck. But I wouldn't. YMMV.

   Secondly: there are three methods for rating line strength. I call them American Underrated, American Accurate, and Japanese.

   American Underrated is like Big Game, CXX, McCoy Mean Green and Trilene XT. If you look at the diameter, it's in line with line rated at least a full step stronger. The manufacturer rates the line for the absolute worst possible conditions you can imagine and tries to insure that the line will come through for the fisherman.

   American Accurate is just that; an accurate rating for the capabilities of the line, but rated for American ideas of line use. Trilene XL, Maxima Ultragreen and Stren Original are some.

   Japanese rating are different. As you can see, American advertising of line characteristics is all over the place. There is no regulatory board with oversight capabilities.

   The Japanese domestic standards are (evidently) based on some sort of standardized tensile strength methodology.  This results in a slightly more optimistic test rating than the American rating method. In other words (and I approximate here), 12 lb. test Japanese Domestic is equivalent to 10 lb. test American Accurate which is equivalent to 8 lb. test American Underrated.

   To muddy the waters even more, the Japanese have reacted to the love of some American fishermen for underrated line and are marketing line with tests not in line with the Japanese standards.

   One of the characteristics that American companies take into effect is shock strength. Shock strength applies both to the straight line and the knotted line, but the shock strength of the knotted line (knot strength) is much more obvious. That's one area where fluorocarbon falls behind nylon. A stiff-tipped rod would, naturally, make it a little worse.

   NO MATTER WHAT THE ADVERTISING SAYS, FLUOROCARBON IS NOT LIKE NYLON.

   When I finally chose 12 lb. InvizX, I mentally put it on a level with 8 lb. Trilene XT. I think I got that right. For use on a cranking rod, I like it a LOT better than Stren or Trilene.

   But I have no illusions regarding its inherent strength. I know it's rated by the Japanese system. I can live with that. ?

   So ...... maybe you'll want to go with 15 lb. test FC line.

   Maybe you'll decide you don't like FC line because of its reaction off a snag.

   It's for you to decide.

 

   Hope this helps you.         jj

  

The 13 muse 7'1 M F is by no means a hard tipped rod.  Its kind of like an E6X M in power.  Most companies would call it a ML.  A oneo f is a one off but ive broken this line a half dozen times and even the line on the factory spool doesn't exceed 9 pounds.  ALl of my red label, PLine, Yo zuri that i have tested meet so r exceeds its breaking strength.  As far as I know, simply put the JDM rating system goes by a maximum breaking strength and the USDM goes by a minimum breaking strength.  That product is USDM so it would be minimum breaking strength. 

[GetFishorDieTryin]

48 minutes ago, WRB said:

This is Bass Resource a bass fishing forum. 

Here is some more worthless info.

The 1st FC line I used for bass fishing in 1994 was Sunline Shooter, the filler spool FC line available in the US. I still use Shooter.  The 1st FC leader I used was in 1990 Seaguar for off shore tuna and Marlin tournament fishing. I have experience in both fresh and salt water angling using FC line. The early Seagaur FC leader failed by splitting under the stress of fighting big strong fish. Most off shore tournament anglers changed to Soft Steel mono leaders. Today FC has improved leader materials. 

The best FC I found was Black Water Toray High Class but $35 for 82 yards it isn't worth it. There are lots of FC brands that are not well known.

When Trilene came out with FC they had a lot of problems, Vanish being the most notable. Trilene 100% FC was pulled back and relabeled 1 diameter size larger per lb test, i.e.; 12 lb was labeled 10 etc to solve the poor knot strength performance.

As Director of Engineering for a Aerospace company (retired) I have tested every line I used with aerospace Instron to determine knot strength, yield strength, impact strength etc at various rates of loading. Plus 25 years of on the water experince. 

Today I use 3 mono lines; Maxima 5 lb Ultra Green, 12 lb Berkley Big Game and 11 & 25 lb Sunline Armillo Nylon. 2 FC lines 12 lb Sunline Shooter and 7 lb Sniper based on on the water performance.

What is your qualifications?

Tom

 

Anyone can google something bud.  I didn't mean to trigger you. I don't care who you claim to be,  If you take 10 feet of blue label and 10 feet of trilene big game there is no way in hell that the blue label will stretch as much as the mono, so you just look like a wanna be know it all *******.  Your statement is wrong and you know so your angry? Ive fished salt and fresh 2 since I was 4 years old.  I used to ride my bike to Herefords inlet everyday from 102st.  Im no weekend warrior like yourself and you can talk  big game, but Ive met more people than I can count that throw around statistics and how many bass clubs there in.  As soon as it gets cold the goobers disappear and I only see the same 3 or 4 people Ive been fishing with close to 20 years.  Don't make it a back and fourth because your butt hurt dude act your age rocket man.  

[jimmyjoe]

18 minutes ago, Rusty_Shackleford said:

A oneo f is a one off but ive broken this line a half dozen times and even the line on the factory spool doesn't exceed 9 pounds.  ALl of my red label, PLine, Yo zuri that i have tested meet so r exceeds its breaking strength.

 

    The more info you give us, the more I think that your situation is due to one of two things, both of which have been suggested:

   Either your spool of line is weak, due to age or some other circumstance, or InvizX is inherently weaker than the other lines that you're used to using.

   If you know anyone who uses InvizX at the 12 lb. test, try and get a hank of line from them and test it the same way you tested the line that you have now (you said the line on the factory spool does not exceed 9 lbs.).

   That will give you your answer. If they test the same, then 12 lb. InvizX is definitely not for you. If they test differently, then  you have a bad spool.

   Please get back to us with the info; I'd definitely like to know the results on this one!          jj

  

[GetFishorDieTryin]

1 hour ago, JLewis134 said:

HAHA

 

You are correct! 

 

Exactly! 100% agree. I'm sure WRB will come with his "scientific" blanket statements and anecdotal evidence lol

Agreed, next he's going to say fiberglass transitions vibration better then metal then copy and paste segment of some report that is totally ambiguous.  

1 hour ago, jimmyjoe said:

 

    The more info you give us, the more I think that your situation is due to one of two things, both of which have been suggested:

   Either your spool of line is weak, due to age or some other circumstance, or InvizX is inherently weaker than the other lines that you're used to using.

   If you know anyone who uses InvizX at the 12 lb. test, try and get a hank of line from them and test it the same way you tested the line that you have now (you said the line on the factory spool does not exceed 9 lbs.).

   That will give you your answer. If they test the same, then 12 lb. InvizX is definitely not for you. If they test differently, then  you have a bad spool.

   Please get back to us with the info; I'd definitely like to know the results on this one!          jj

  

Im 99% sure its just a bad spool.  Other than that InvizX spool ive only 1other bad spool of 10lb vanish years and years ago.  Every few feet it a mean nick in it.  I don't what could have caused it because even half way though the spool the nicks are still in there.  It jus sucks because I had so much confidence in Seaguars Fluro and now ill second guess it everytime I buy it.   

[jimmyjoe]

   https://www.dwrl.utexas.edu/2016/11/15/the-art-and-rhetoric-of-trolling/

 

[RoLo]

 

FACT:

The difference in line-stretch between ‘line brands’, is far greater than the difference 

between Nylon & Fluorocarbon.

 

Fluorocarbon lacks 'elasticity’, which represents line recovery in the opposite direction of stretch.

Once fluorocarbon line is appreciably stretched, it does not fully return to its original length.

The upshot of poor elasticity is line elongation and progressively thinning diameter.

In turn, a loss in diameter results in reduced abrasion-resistance & breaking strength.

 

Roger

[Heartland]

1 hour ago, RoLo said:

 

FACT:

The difference in line-stretch between ‘line brands’, is far greater than the difference 

between Nylon & Fluorocarbon.

 

Quote

 

I have read this multiple times and still have not come to grips with what it actually means or how it relates to fishing line...... I guess I would have to ask what Nylon and FC are you using as a base line for comparison, and does that even apply to fishing.

[RoLo]

 

 

[Heartland]

13 minutes ago, RoLo said:

 

 

What were they testing for?  Looks like heavy line and leader material at first glance.

[A-Jay]

2 hours ago, Rusty_Shackleford said:

Anyone can google something bud.  I didn't mean to trigger you. I don't care who you claim to be,  If you take 10 feet of blue label and 10 feet of trilene big game there is no way in hell that the blue label will stretch as much as the mono, so you just look like a wanna be know it all *******.  Your statement is wrong and you know so your angry? Ive fished salt and fresh 2 since I was 4 years old.  I used to ride my bike to Herefords inlet everyday from 102st.  Im no weekend warrior like yourself and you can talk  big game, but Ive met more people than I can count that throw around statistics and how many bass clubs there in.  As soon as it gets cold the goobers disappear and I only see the same 3 or 4 people Ive been fishing with close to 20 years.  Don't make it a back and fourth because your butt hurt dude act your age rocket man.  

Had to save this one.

Just for future reference. 

Really hope this is not where this forum is heading.

A-Jay 

 

[jimmyjoe]

  

21 minutes ago, A-Jay said:

Had to save this one.

Just for future reference. 

Really hope this is not where this forum is heading.

A-Jay 

 

 

   I've noticed it more  and more the last year or so. One point man, one or two flankers. The call-and-return format makes it a little more obvious. There have been solo efforts, though.

   Like I said before, everyone views other people through their own eyes.          jj

  

[Heartland]

3 hours ago, jimmyjoe said:

    This may or may not help. This was done by our own @FryDog62.

 

 

I bought into the fluorocarbon thing about 5 years ago in many respects because it is marketed as being "low stretch." I have a couple rods with no stretch braid, but also wanted to string up a few rods with straight fluorocarbon as a main line. I took a trip to Rainy Lake to target smallmouth. Lots of long casts, clear water, finesse plastics and spinnerbaits. Two of us in the boat, lots of fish and I had several long casts and hits. Whiff, whiff, whiff...

I usually don't miss that many fish. My fishing partner wasn't missing and he was having a good time letting me hear about it. So I switched back to braid on one pole and mono on the other...and started getting solid hook sets again. Made me wonder about how much stretch was in fluorocarbon.

Part of the reason I bought fluorocarbon was for its low stretch properties. Its no fun setting the hook with a rubber band. And yet that's what was happening to me. So, I decided to conduct my own independent test of 9 fluorocarbon lines versus 9 other mono or co-polymer lines. Many Fluorocarbon lines are specifically marketed as "low stretch." But compared to what? So, I decided to test them head-to-head in an effort to find out which lines truly were less stretch than the others.

My results are below. I used only 8 pound test lines in this experiment. You could do a number of different tests but the one I chose was to max the lines out and see how they stretched when pushed to their outer limits. I used a 12 foot length of line and hung an 8 pound weight from it. Lowered it slowly. Most lines would reach close to their maximum stretch after about 20-25 seconds, so at 30 seconds I took the measurement in inches. Results are listed from least stretch (in inches) to most stretch. I don't have a horse in this race and am not sponsored by anyone...just an amateur in pursuit of a good low stretch line:

All Lines Tested

• Trilene XT (Mono) 21-1/4 inches of stretch
• Yo-Zuri Hybrid (Co-polymer) 22-1/8
• Sufix Seige (Mono) 22-5/8
• P-Line CX Premium (Co-polymer) 23-1/2
• Maxima Treazure (Co-polymer) 24-1/2
• Trilene XL (Mono) 24-3/4
• Tectan Superior (Mono) 25-7/8
• Berkley Sensation (Mono) 26-1/8
• Sunline Sniper (Fluorocarbon) 26-1/2
• Gamma Touch (Fluorocarbon) 29-1/4
• Original Blue Stren (Mono) 29-3/4
• Gamma Edge (Fluorocarbon) 31-0**
• Bass Pro XPS (Fluorocarbon) 31-3/4*
• Stren 100% (Fluorocast) 31-3/4*
• Seaguar Tatsu (Fluorocarbon) 32-3/4
• P-Line 100% (Fluorocarbon) 33-0*
• Seaguar Invizx (Fluorocarbon) 36-0**
• Berkley 100% (Fluorocarbon) 38-3/8

*Line snapped once and was re-tested

** Line snapped twice - length estimated

 

Broken Down By Line Type

• 3 Co-polymer lines average stretch: 23.4 inches
• 6 Monofilament lines average stretch: 25.1 inches
• 9 fluorocarbon lines average stretch: 32.2 inches

Line Diameter

Line diameter can have an effect on stretch, but 9 of these lines all had the same diameter (.009 inches). Those lines are broken out below. The overall results are similar for the 3 different line types.

 

• P-Line CX Premium (Co-polymer) 23-1/2
• Maxima Treazure (Co-polymer) 24-1/2
• Tectan Superior (Mono) 25-7/8
• Berkley Sensation (Mono) 26-1/8
• Sunline Sniper (Fluorocarbon) 26-1/2
• Gamma Touch (Fluorocarbon) 29-1/4
• Bass Pro XPS (Fluorocarbon) 31-3/4*
• Seaguar Tatsu (Fluorocarbon) 32-3/4
• Seaguar Invizx (Fluorocarbon) 36-0**

Overall observations

• I had heard for years that Fluorocarbon line had less stretch than other lines, boy was I surprised with these results.
• Newer Co-polymer lines being marketed specifically as “low stretch” for the most part seem to be accurate.
• Monofilament tends to be somewhere in the middle, although those with a thicker diameter (i.e. Trilene XT .011 and Sufix Seige .010) did stretch less.
• Line diameter may have an effect on the stretch of certain lines, but overall, lines of the same diameter seem to reflect that Co-polymer and Monofilament lines still stretch less than Fluorocarbon.
• Fluorocarbon lines tend to break easier when stretched to their maximum breaking strength.

Curious to hear other people's feedback and if they have had similar experiences. -Fry

 

  

I remember reading this some years ago, the thing that I got out out it was that correlation does not imply causation.  These test measured where we ended up, not how we got there....

[Glaucus]

3 hours ago, Rusty_Shackleford said:

Anyone can google something bud.  I didn't mean to trigger you. I don't care who you claim to be,  If you take 10 feet of blue label and 10 feet of trilene big game there is no way in hell that the blue label will stretch as much as the mono, so you just look like a wanna be know it all *******.  Your statement is wrong and you know so your angry? Ive fished salt and fresh 2 since I was 4 years old.  I used to ride my bike to Herefords inlet everyday from 102st.  Im no weekend warrior like yourself and you can talk  big game, but Ive met more people than I can count that throw around statistics and how many bass clubs there in.  As soon as it gets cold the goobers disappear and I only see the same 3 or 4 people Ive been fishing with close to 20 years.  Don't make it a back and fourth because your butt hurt dude act your age rocket man.  

These aren't the kind of exchanges that we have here. I got irritated once by what I thought was stupidity a couple years ago. Someone was trying to convince us that 50lb straight braid was the way to go for drop shotting. It was bizarre and my sarcasm couldn't take it anymore. This goes beyond that. You're disrespecting a well respected member here over absolutely nothing. You aggressively disagreed the first time and he documented how he's gotten his opinion, and this is how you respond? You must be used to Facebook groups and YouTube comments sections. But let me tell you, we ain't it chief.

[Tennessee Boy]

2 hours ago, jimmyjoe said:

   https://www.dwrl.utexas.edu/2016/11/15/the-art-and-rhetoric-of-trolling/

 

Thanks.  Very interesting read and relevant to this thread.  It should be pointed out that it’s not about Buck Perry style trolling which I assumed when I first read the title. ?

[Glenn]

Enough!  Several warnings handed out on this one.

 

Guys...it's fishing.  It's supposed to be fun.  Get off the keyboard and go fishing.