Breaking Fluorocarbon Leaders - Reasons?

[snake95]

I have been tying fluoro leaders over the past few years, using them in fairly clear water for lighter plastic presentations ranging from Ned Rigs to weightless senkos.

 

Mostly I have done well, but lately had a lot of fluoro breaks at the connection knot, or possibly in the line above it.  

 

I think it is well established that fluoro is generally not forgiving when it comes to knots.  

 

I switched to the Berkley Braid knot and had good success until recently.

 

I have been using high quality fluoro - Tatusu 8 lb and 10 lb.  The spools of Tatsu are kept in separate pouches in my tackle bag, and I spool off what I need periodically.  Been in there maybe a year.  I thought they were treated well - no sunlight or crazy heat.

 

Could it be that my Tatsu has degraded over time?

 

OR... is my knot tying degrading?

 

 

 

 

[A-Jay]

Been there ~ just not recently.

A few thoughts:

Perhaps keep your knots 'fresh'; meaning retie often.

Perhaps try a longer leader.

Perhaps bump up a test or two.

Perhaps lighten up on the hookset power a little.

Perhaps just say the heck with it and switch to a mono leader. 

I bet your problem will go away and you'll still catch bass

A-Jay

 

[BrianMDTX]

Or try a copolymer leader. 

[PourMyOwn]

I agree with A-Jay and Brian, mono or copolymer leaders will solve the problem. I switched over and knot strength is considerably better.

[FryDog62]

Question - is it a clean break above the knot... or do you see a "Curly-Q" where the line snapped?  Reason I ask is that if the end of the broken line is curly, chances are your knot either didn't hold or may have been tied wrong.  I struggled when I first started tying the Crazy Alberto knot years ago and would end up with knot failure because I didn't always go back through the loop the same way as I entered, which is critical.  I'd pull the knot tight and it would hold initially, but the next snag or fish it would unwind and leave the Curly Q as evidence of an incorrectly tied knot.

 

The other thing I will echo those above - when I'm being stealthy (i.e. Ned rig) I will use lighter 6-8 lb Sniper fluorocarbon as my leader.  But if I'm doing anything else where line strength matters as much or more as invisibility (skipping docks, Neko rig around cover, jigs, etc) I use a co-polymer (Yo-Zuri Hybrid 8-12 lb depending on technique).  The YZH is extremely abrasion resistant (an advantage when your knot goes in/out of the guides all day) and I haven't found anything else that ties as strong of a knot.  IMO sink rate and invisibility are close enough to fluorocarbon for most applications too, its just a little thicker in diameter so go down a size if needed.  

[Team9nine]

So these breaks are actually down at or just above the lure, not the braid to fluoro connecting knot? And why are you using the BBK in fluoro? I agree with the above that switching leader types is one possible solution, but I’d be switching connection knots, too. Depending on what you go with, switch to something like SDJ, Palomar, Pitzen or similar. The more complicated the knot (bends, wraps, overlays), the more it doesn’t play well with fluoro. 

[WRB]

Been fighting FC random line failures for over 25 years. It's knot line degrading from storage. I refuse to Use FC with a leader, 2 knots is too much trouble. 

If the FC gets a nick from a hook barb when rigged it will fail. I use lure wraps whenever setting the rigged rod down after wrapping the line around the rod to prevent hooks contacting line. Any slight abrasion weakens FC line.

Set your drag 1/3rd the leader line strength 2 1/2-3 lbs with 8-10 lb line.

Bass are not line shy fish, line diameter is more important. 

Tom

[JLewis134]

3 hours ago, WRB said:

Been fighting FC random line failures for over 25 years. It's knot line degrading from storage. I refuse to Use FC with a leader, 2 knots is too much trouble. 

If the FC gets a nick from a hook barb when rigged it will fail. I use lure wraps whenever setting the rigged rod down after wrapping the line around the rod to prevent hooks contacting line. Any slight abrasion weakens FC line.

Set your drag 1/3rd the leader line strength 2 1/2-3 lbs with 8-10 lb line.

Bass are not line shy fish, line diameter is more important. 

Tom

Any slight abrasion weakens ALL line. 

 

Flourocarbon have its flaws but it comes down to tying a Palomar knot (not overlapping lines), a Double San Diego Jam, etc. If you moisten your line when tightening, check your line periodically like you do with all lines, then you shouldn't have issues. But yes flourocarbon does have its weaknesses like all lines.

5 hours ago, snake95 said:

I have been tying fluoro leaders over the past few years, using them in fairly clear water for lighter plastic presentations ranging from Ned Rigs to weightless senkos.

 

Mostly I have done well, but lately had a lot of fluoro breaks at the connection knot, or possibly in the line above it.  

 

I think it is well established that fluoro is generally not forgiving when it comes to knots.  

 

I switched to the Berkley Braid knot and had good success until recently.

 

I have been using high quality fluoro - Tatusu 8 lb and 10 lb.  The spools of Tatsu are kept in separate pouches in my tackle bag, and I spool off what I need periodically.  Been in there maybe a year.  I thought they were treated well - no sunlight or crazy heat.

 

Could it be that my Tatsu has degraded over time?

 

OR... is my knot tying degrading?

 

 

 

 

Instance think the issues could be from buying non legitmate line such as buying from a website or company named Save A Lot,etc. Not moistening your knot when tightening down. Not tying a proper knot with flourocarbon. Try tying a Double San Diego Jam. Also, periodically change/check your line. Do not leave your gear/line outside. All these should minimize issues. 

[snake95]

1 hour ago, Team9nine said:

So these breaks are actually down at or just above the lure, not the braid to fluoro connecting knot? And why are you using the BBK in fluoro?

Yes!  at or possibly above the connection to the hook.  

 

Well, good question about why BBK.  I have been using it in lieu of the Palomar after I saw that the BBK tested well for Fluoro in the Knot Wars series a number of years ago.  

 

I have done well with the BBK in mono tests at the Berkely testing station they have at the Classic.  But that is mono.

 

G-man has a couple of videos out talking about "his" "Double Shindoe" knot which is essentially a reverse BBK, which further reinforced the idea of going with the BBK.

 

I talked to Aaron Martens at the Classic recently and he told me he always uses a doubled uni, which similarly involves several loops of line.

 

To be honest, it has been a recent development and my initial track record with the BBK was good.

 

@Team9nine I know you know what you are talking about, so will take your advice and try a different knot.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, FryDog62 said:

I use a co-polymer (Yo-Zuri Hybrid 8-12 lb depending on technique).  

Yes I used to use hybrid for leaders too, and then went to fluoro.  Why?  I don't have a great reason.

 

 

2 hours ago, A-Jay said:

Perhaps keep your knots 'fresh'; meaning retie often.

Perhaps try a longer leader.

Perhaps bump up a test or two.

Perhaps lighten up on the hookset power a little.

I feel like some of these are most likely culprits.  They should be obvious enough, but to be fair, I probably have not been re-tying often enough and my hooksets are probably too hard.  I will try to address these things too.

And... yes maybe I would do just as well with a $7 spool of mono instead of a $30 spool of fluoro.

 

Thanks, guys.  On further reflection, what I was really wanting to ask was the wrong question:  "could my nice expensive Tatsu line have really degraded enough in a year or two to be breaking on me."  But... I think that was a normal reaction instead of putting the blame where it is more likely to lie: with the knot tier and line handler.  I am really into knots and think I am good at them, but... I should take another look at what I am doing.

 

 

[Team9nine]

37 minutes ago, snake95 said:

Yes!  at or possibly above the connection to the hook.  

 

Well, good question about why BBK.  I have been using it in lieu of the Palomar after I saw that the BBK tested well for Fluoro in the Knot Wars series a number of years ago.  

 

I have done well with the BBK in mono tests at the Berkely testing station they have at the Classic.  But that is mono.

 

G-man has a couple of videos out talking about "his" "Double Shindoe" knot which is essentially a reverse BBK, which further reinforced the idea of going with the BBK.

 

I talked to Aaron Martens at the Classic recently and he told me he always uses a doubled uni, which similarly involves several loops of line.

 

To be honest, it has been a recent development and my initial track record with the BBK was good.

 

@Team9nine I know you know what you are talking about, so will take your advice and try a different knot.

 

 

Makes sense now. The issue is that fishing lines are incredibly complex things when combined with knots. I've researched tons of knot tests over the years, and what you see is that knots work differently in different lines; different brands of the same type line material, different types of line material by the same brand, or even differently between pound test ratings of the same brand/material.

 

Usually, doubling the line for a given knot will increase strength, but there are limits depending on material. Nylon/copoly - line knots typically get stronger as the knots get more complex. Fluorocarbon is the opposite, weakening as the knots get more complex. Even Swindle mentioned not tightening his knot down (looks like a double line clinch to me) too much in the video - believe it's the same as Zona's, only Zona uses less full turns (less complex). So very hard hooksets and infrequent retying as you mention above could potentially be a large part of the problem you're seeing.

 

Might just check a couple simpler "standard" fluorocarbon knots like SDJ to see if there is any change; or simply retie a lot more often and maybe not change anything.

 

As an aside, one thing I've noticed, and I've checked this out on the water (lol), is that you can frequently tell with a micrometer when fluorocarbon is starting to go bad. It will start necking down just above the knot slightly, which is the formation of the weak point in the line. The more pressure, and for longer periods of time, the more likely this is to happen. Again, the simple fix is to retie more frequently with fluoro.

 

Anyway, good luck with figuring out the solution. We all go through it at some point, and it can be frustrating.

[jimmyjoe]

21 minutes ago, Team9nine said:

you can frequently tell with a micrometer when fluorocarbon is starting to go bad. It will start necking down just above the knot slightly, which is the formation of the weak point in the line.

 

   You don't really need a micrometer. Bring the knot up to your eyes closely. Bend the last few inches of the line in a "U" while watching it. The weak part of fluorocarbon line will be stiffer than the good part, and the bend will show it up quite well. If you see that stiff or "wiry" reaction, re-tie immediately.

   One other thing. It might apply to you and it might not. Use fluorocarbon leader material instead of fluorocarbon line. Price is higher, but physical characteristics are much different.

   Good luck!      jj

[WRB]

More knots have been developed to resolve knot strength issues for FC then all other line types combined. Everyone keeps claiming they don't have a problem, why all the different knots? I have a problem with FC and admit it and doubt if anyone else ties knots more affectively then I do. 

All brands of Japaese FC line is smaller diameter per lb test then domestic brands. Select and evaluate compare line by it's diameter. Knots weaken time over stress so retie often and don't leave knots tied over 24 hours.

I only use 2 knots with FC or mono. Direct to a hook or snap a properly tied Palomar knot. Directly to lures like jigs or other treble hook lures not using a snap the San Diego jam not. The lure weight helps when tying the SD jam knot. 

When I am using 10 to 12 lb line targeting giant bass with jigs there is no room for knot failure. 

Tom

[snake95]

11 minutes ago, WRB said:

I only use 2 knots with FC or mono. Direct to a hook or snap a properly tied Palomar knot. Directly to lures like jigs or other treble hook lures not using a snap the San Diego jam not. The lure weight helps when tying the SD jam knot.

Thanks for the insights Tom.  I use the SD jam a lot and really like it - could tie in my sleep.  I will try it for my situation as well.

[Ogandrews]

I’m 100% braid to leader on all of my setups. The only time I will use normal floro is if I am fishing a jerkbait with long pauses, all of my other techniques are done with either normal mono or sunline fc100. There are no real benefits to normal low stretch floro, I am not a big believer in line visibility but even if I was fishing in the clear parts of the Great Lakes with 30-40 feet of visibility I would rather just go to a line size smaller mono. Mono has better knot strength, has some stretch, waaay better shock absorption, cheaper, more abrasion resistance, and less memory in a lot of cases. Fc100 is a very stretchy floro designed to be used as saltwater leader material. It is the best leader material I have ever used, but it is quite expensive so I only use it in specific situations. It is a good amount thinner than the same weight mono so you can get away with a heavier line with the same diameter. I mostly use it when I know I am around toothy fish but don’t want to use a traditional musky leader due to the bait I’m using. Most of the time when I’m throwing swimbaits or heavier swim jigs I will use 30 or 40lbs fc100 and very rarely will get bit off. I’ve used it all the way up to 60 lbs when actually fishing for pike and musky With smaller lures, really want to try their 100lbs for my normal sized musky baits.

[Stephen B]

19 minutes ago, Ogandrews said:

I’m 100% braid to leader on all of my setups. The only time I will use normal floro is if I am fishing a jerkbait with long pauses, all of my other techniques are done with either normal mono or sunline fc100. There are no real benefits to normal low stretch floro, I am not a big believer in line visibility but even if I was fishing in the clear parts of the Great Lakes with 30-40 feet of visibility I would rather just go to a line size smaller mono. Mono has better knot strength, has some stretch, waaay better shock absorption, cheaper, more abrasion resistance, and less memory in a lot of cases. Fc100 is a very stretchy floro designed to be used as saltwater leader material. It is the best leader material I have ever used, but it is quite expensive so I only use it in specific situations. It is a good amount thinner than the same weight mono so you can get away with a heavier line with the same diameter. I mostly use it when I know I am around toothy fish but don’t want to use a traditional musky leader due to the bait I’m using. Most of the time when I’m throwing swimbaits or heavier swim jigs I will use 30 or 40lbs fc100 and very rarely will get bit off. I’ve used it all the way up to 60 lbs when actually fishing for pike and musky With smaller lures, really want to try their 100lbs for my normal sized musky baits.

If you are using braid to leader, than the price shouldn't be a big factor as even a 200 yd spool of FC will last a long time. While I accept the downfalls of FC, I don't have many issues. I don't use line conditioner either.

 

I am a skeptical person myself so I don't believe everything I hear and read. Do I think FC is overpriced? Yes. Do I think it has issues? Yes but so does mono. Do the benefits of FC outweigh its weaknesses? That is for you to decide but for me absolutely. When you fish FC vs mono, it's night and day difference for bottom contact sensitivity. I don't see myself ever throwing mono unless it's topwater or maybe cranking.

[Ogandrews]

17 minutes ago, Stephen B said:

If you are using braid to leader, than the price shouldn't be a big factor as even a 200 yd spool of FC will last a long time. While I accept the downfalls of FC, I don't have many issues. I don't use line conditioner either.

 

I am a skeptical person myself so I don't believe everything I hear and read. Do I think FC is overpriced? Yes. Do I think it has issues? Yes but so does mono. Do the benefits of FC outweigh its weaknesses? That is for you to decide but for me absolutely. When you fish FC vs mono, it's night and day difference for bottom contact sensitivity. I don't see myself ever throwing mono unless it's topwater or maybe cranking.

If we are talking about leader material than there is not a night and day difference in sensitivity between using mono and using floro as the leader material. If we’re talking straight mono or floro than yea I would be throwing floro as well, but in a short section as a leader I have found way too many negatives to outweigh the practically unnoticeable difference in sensitivity. Price for leader material really isn’t an issue, it’s just one other thing that is better about mono especially when your carrying spools with you for every line size. Would way rather have all of the benefits of mono when I’m trying to catch a trophy than the tiny benefit of floro. It’s all personal preference obviously, but I think a huge amount of the reason that a lot of people don’t like braid to leader is that they are using floro and not tying connections correctly.

[Stephen B]

16 minutes ago, Ogandrews said:

I think a huge amount of the reason that a lot of people don’t like braid to leader is that they are using floro and not tying connections correctly.

Exactly. I only use braid to leader on spinning rods though. Not a fan for casting

[WRB]

The only advantage I see with spinning reels using braid with a leader is line twist management. 2 knots defeat that advantage for me because I fish from my boat and it's easy to untwist line. 

I agree with some bottom contact lures having better feedback using FC and this is the only application I use FC line, never with 2 knots.

Tom

[Stephen B]

7 hours ago, WRB said:

The only advantage I see with spinning reels using braid with a leader is line twist management. 2 knots defeat that advantage for me because I fish from my boat and it's easy to untwist line. 

I agree with some bottom contact lures having better feedback using FC and this is the only application I use FC line, never with 2 knots.

Tom

Correct. Line management, longer casts, no twisting plus the ability to lie in leader from 6 to 10 lb leader to my 20 lb braid is really convenient 

[plawren53202]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2020 at 8:50 AM, BrianMDTX said:

Or try a copolymer leader. 

I gave a run at using fluoro both as a mainline and as a leader. I just found it too fussy for my liking. I recognize that that's probably mainly my fault; I'm sure I tie sloppy knots, I know I'm not great about checking for abrasion or wear after catching a fish, rubbing rocks, and so on. So this past winter I switched all fluoro applications to copolymer, specifically Sufix Advance. Now I preach it to everyone. It's the best of both mono and fluoro to me. But I've found it to be much less fussy than fluoro, especially for me with my sloppy knots and bad line management habits.

[snake95]

Just wanted to post a note that I did a bit of a review of information on fluoro knots of the pros.

 

Setting aside the pros and cons of using fluoro leaders with braid...

 

And acknowledging that the pros aren't the only guys that know what they are doing, and they are sponsored by line manufacturers -- lots of guys on Bassresource also know very well what they are doing!

 

Some notable pros talking fluoro knots:

 

1. Aaron Martens:  doubled uni (not too hard).

 

2. Shaw Grigsby: doubled Pitzen (pretty easy, like a doubled SDJ but doesn't bother to go through the bottom hole at the connection).

 

3. Gerald Swindle: double Shindoe and other various G-man names.  Double lines, wrap up the mainline, and back out through the bottom - not too different than the Berkely Braid, except he wraps up the mainline instead of down.

 

Mike Bucca (guide, swimbait designer and guru, etc.) in an older BR article said he liked the BBK.

 

All four above double their lines.  All except Aaron's are pretty similar knots really.  

 

Noted that a lot of guys like the SDJ and Palomar, and that's clearly stated in this thread and others.

 

I will keep practicing... ideally under "field conditions."

[WRB]

Part of fishing and I mean all types of fishing is learning to tie effective knots. 

My early years working at a marina I made up 2, 3 & 4 lb test trout leaders tying snell knots, loop knots and what is now called a Palomar knot back in the 50's.  

The most popular knot for monofilament line was the improved clinch knot, everyone tied that knot from the 60's to 80's, 1 knot worked.

When I started to fish Marlin and tuna tournaments a new world of knots were used by the off shore blue water anglers. Double line Binmi twist was very challenging to tie properly. Perfection loop knot used for live bait hooks, the world of using crimp sleeves, etc.

When FC came out in the 80's it was the blue water tournament anglers who used it 1st as wind on leaders. FC was a advantage with line shy Bluefin tuna but it raised it's ugly head with line and knot failures. FC line and knot random failures haven't been resolved to this day.

Tom

[MickD]

On 6/30/2020 at 9:16 AM, A-Jay said:

switch to a mono leader. 

Good advice.  

If you are convinced you need FC then use leader grade FC.  Yes it's pricey, but it is better than the line grade for leaders where stiffness is not a problem.  And you don't use that much of it, a 30 meter spool a year?  For $15?  Not an issue, most likely .  

 

I use fly tippet FC when I want to use FC, mostly for it's density.  And for surface rig I use mono leader material grade.  

[king fisher]

I have spent way to much time testing knots, simply to prove to friends which ones work best.  Most of my tests have been done with heavy line for saltwater use.  In Fresh water when using braid to leader, I use the Alberto for my braid to leader knot, and either Palomar, San Diego Jam,or Orvis knot depending on size of line for the lure conection.  I struggle tying the SDJ, with light line because I am used to tying it with tension by placing the hook or lure in the attachments for a harness on a big game reel.  Would like to see how people tie it without using tension in this way.

     In Saltwater braid to Floro is considered a necessity for live bait fishing.  I have spent many hours tying knots and testing them with a crane lifting containers of water, not only to see which knot is strongest, but where they typically break.  The one thing I have learned is there is no 100% knot.  The line will always break within 1/2 inch of the knot.

     In order from strongest to weakest here are results of my tests.   There are over a dozen other knots I tested that aren't listed, because they didn't make the cut

No. 1  Floro spliced in to Hollow braid.  If both are similar pound tests,  Connection will break in the braid at the top of the splice, where the needle was removed.  There are companies that make hollow braid in 50 pound test now, so if you  want to spend a lot of time on the strongest possible connection, have at it.  I don't think it is practical for bass fishing

     No. 2 Cats Pawl Loop to Loop  with Bimini on braid end, and crimp on floro end.  Will break at the start of Bimini.  I see no practical application for bass fishing.

     No. 3 FG  Most common connection used in the past couple years.  Tied correctly is almost identical to loop to loop in strength.  In my opinion a waste of time for light line freshwater use but I do see where it is becoming popular for bass fishing.  There is a way to tie it without having to use both hands and your mouth, look up no tension FG on U Tube

     No. 4 Alberto-  My favorite for bass fishing.  Faster to tie than Blood double Uni and FG  Tied correctly considerably stronger than Blood or Double Uni.  Usually breaks at braid end where entering loop.  All wraps must be sinched down as far over loop as possible, and leader tag trimmed as close as possible.  Otherwise as you fish the braid will catch in the V created by the tag, and eventually weakening the knot at that point.  Hard to explain but there are videos that show what happens  Braid end does not need to be trimmed close.   Also best to go through the loop twice at the end of the knot and tighten mostly with tag end.

      No. 5 Uni to Uni.-- I used it for years, and is an easy knot to tie.  I was surprised to find it was significantly weaker than Alberto, and FG.  Usually breaks at braid end unless floro is significantly less in pound test than the braid.  Which is not likely saltwater fishing but is the case most of the time bass fishing. 

      No. 6 Blood Knot.  First connection knot I learned.  I still use it for mono to mono connections.  Mostly with fly leaders.  Usually breaks Floro end.  I can now tie an Alberto faster so don't use it for braid to leader.

     Braid to mono is much stronger, and I would recommend using Surgeons, Blood, uni to uni, or Alberto, which ever you are more comfortable with.  Even in the clear blue water I only use Floro with live bait.  I always use mono for lures.  I don't see why there would be a need for Braid to floro for bass fishing, but lots of people do so there must be a reason.

     Strongest knot for connecting braid straight to lure is Bimini with cats pawl

     Best practical knot for straight braid to lure is either double over clinch, or doubled over uni. with Polamar coming in a close second.

     Strongest Floro to lure knot is a crimp for 80 lbs. and up.

     Best Floro to lure knot.  San Diego Jam, Uni, or Polomar.  All work well, but all can  fail for no reason.

 

     Of course this is just my opinion, but I will say I have spent many days and won more than a few bets with the testing I have done. I will be testing knots again this summer.  I plan on learning some new knots and hope to video the tests this year.

     I will add, if you can tie your favorite knot correctly, when in a hurry with poor light, and you catch fish with it, don't change knots.  I'm only testing to find the strongest knot.  Not the one that works best for every one.  If you are fishing 60 lbs. braid and your knot is only a 50% knot, it will still catch any bass that swims.

       

[Fishin' Fool]

I use braid to fluorocarbon on my spinning rods exclusively. Something that nobody mentioned is keep your drag setting a bit more towards the loose end than the tight end. I rarely have issues with knots breaking. I tie a uni to uni knot.