Magnesium vs graphite

[Cantcatchbass]

So over the past few years magnesium has really gotten famous but is it really stronger than graphite or is it just scam?

[Tywithay]

It has always been stronger than graphite, to my knowledge, at least in reel manufacturing. Reel manufacturers spend millions on r&d trying to find ways to make graphite as rigid as metal in that application. 

[NOC 1]

Magnesium is a very rigid material. The downsides are that it is kind of brittle in that unlike steel, it won't bend and spring back to shape as steel will. It behaves more like cast iron in that it just cracks and breaks. Not much of an issue in fishing reels where it makes a very rigid frame.

 

The Downsides for some people in fishing reels is that it tends to have what many call a "hollow feel". you can feel every little vibration of the gears and bearings. I kind of like that. It's like the difference between driving a big old '75' Eldorado Caddy and a 944 Porsche. Some folks like the cushy smooth of the Caddy and some folks like to feel the nuances of the road. And, has been said, it is not compatible with salt at all. If you have even a small scratch and it gets salt water in it, the reel with very quickly start to rot away and there is no way to really stop it.

 

It does however burn very spectacularly. Kind of like phosphorus.

[Luke Barnes]

Interesting. I recently got a SLX XT that is a mix of aluminum and magnesium. Ive yet to fish it yet due to being sent the wrong rod. But it's very light weight and way more solid than the graphite reels I have. I can't remember what the side plates are made of though. 

[matbellon3]

2 hours ago, Luke Barnes said:

SLX XT that is a mix of aluminum and magnesium

No part of the SLX XT is magnesium. The frame is aluminum and the side plates are a reinforced plastic.

[jimmyjoe]

   You need to be careful in that some magnesium alloys are different than others. Some are so soft that you can scratch them with your fingernail.        jj

[WRB]

Ridgitiy comes from high modulus strength and metals like aluminum and magnesium have very modulus strength compared to graphite fiber filled resins. The higher the graphite fiber content the higher the ridgitiy becomes. The problem is brittleness or very low flexibility.  Adding metal fibers in composites adds to strength.

Magnesium is lighter weight then aluminum, however difficult to mold in thin wall designs plus very scacarical to salt water. 

Trade offs for weight savings is a complex issue. 

Tom

[jimmyjoe]

1 minute ago, WRB said:

Trade offs for weight savings is a complex issue. 

 

   Truer words were never said! 

   Different facets of the issue appeal to different people, and to different degrees. It's easy to get lost in that maze.

    jj

[Tywithay]

1 hour ago, WRB said:

Ridgitiy comes from high modulus strength and metals like aluminum and magnesium have very modulus strength compared to graphite fiber filled resins. The higher the graphite fiber content the higher the ridgitiy becomes. The problem is brittleness or very low flexibility.  Adding metal fibers in composites adds to strength.

Magnesium is lighter weight then aluminum, however difficult to mold in thin wall designs plus very scacarical to salt water. 

Trade offs for weight savings is a complex issue. 

Tom

More rigid materials typically transmit vibration better as well. This leads some to to think magnesium and composite reels don't feel as smooth, or have added "noise." Kind of funny that you can have reels with identical gear sets and one won't feel as smooth. Perception is a fickle thing.

[WRB]

Magnesium has the lowest natural resonance of all the metals and the metals it's used for vibration fixtures. Aluminum on the other hand has high resonance frequency making for poor vibration fixtures. You shouldn't  feel any vibration through magnesium and a lots of vibration with aluminum.

Tom

[Luke Barnes]

4 hours ago, matbellon3 said:

No part of the SLX XT is magnesium. The frame is aluminum and the side plates are a reinforced plastic.

According to Shimano the SLX XT has the Hagene frame, which they said is an alloy of aluminum and magnesium...

[Tywithay]

6 hours ago, Luke Barnes said:

According to Shimano the SLX XT has the Hagene frame, which they said is an alloy of aluminum and magnesium...

The Shimano site says the hagane body is made of highly rigid such as aluminum and magnesium. There's zero magnesium on the SLX. 

[Luke Barnes]

10 hours ago, Tywithay said:

The Shimano site says the hagane body is made of highly rigid such as aluminum and magnesium. There's zero magnesium on the SLX. 

Then why would they advertise that is made of aluminum and magnesium if its just aluminum??

[NOC 1]

16 hours ago, WRB said:

Magnesium has the lowest natural resonance of all the metals and the metals it's used for vibration fixtures. Aluminum on the other hand has high resonance frequency making for poor vibration fixtures. You shouldn't  feel any vibration through magnesium and a lots of vibration with aluminum.

Tom

 

 

Hmm. The low resonant frequency of Mag. means that it's response curve is more linear and so, predictable for a wider range of frequencies and at lower frequencies. Important stuff when it comes to designing vibration test rigs, or structural parts that have to have some sort of external damping applied it in order to control vibration.That said:

 

Both materials in their unalloyed forms, are highly effective transmission mediums for vibrations. A material doesn't just pass vibration at it's resonant frequency, it simply dampens less at that particular frequency maybe even to the point where a material's transmission factor is greater than 1 due to the effect of standing waves, making it an amplifier at that one frequency. (Anyone who has heard a microphone squeal uncontrollably has heard the effect of a standing wave at the resonant frequency)

 

 However nearly all frequencies will travel through both materials with the more massive material Aluminum absorbing more vibration that the lighter Magnesium.

 

Of course certain alloys have much higher internal damping characteristics because of the changes in crystalline structure, imperfect grain boundary structures that allows more grain boundary friction, and etc. Adding Aluminum to Magnesium makes it a relatively efficient damper. I would bet that any fishing reel using Magnesium or aluminum are made of an alloy. I would think maybe MG,AL, and SI carbide ?

 

I would say that while the resonant frequency would be a significant factor in structural design of many things,  it's a moot point in fishing reels as the vibrations are so weak compared to the strength of the material and the fact that a fishing reel is not subject to prolonged vibration at any frequency, let alone the resonant frequency.

 

Anyone who has used either an Aluminum or Magnesium reel can tell you that both in fact transmit vibration. Largely through the internal parts to the handle I suspect. but even there, the lighter material would provide less damping than the heavier through contact with the bearings and etc. So a Magnesium reel in fact would (and does) allow the user to feel more vibration. Ask anyone who has used both.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tywithay]

1 hour ago, Luke Barnes said:

Then why would they advertise that is made of aluminum and magnesium if its just aluminum??

They don't?

[Cantcatchbass]

1 hour ago, Luke Barnes said:

Then why would they advertise that is made of aluminum and magnesium if its just aluminum??

They don’t say it’s made of magnesium 

[Manifestgtr]

20 hours ago, Luke Barnes said:

According to Shimano the SLX XT has the Hagene frame, which they said is an alloy of aluminum and magnesium...

“Hagane” is Shimano’s general term for a metal framed reel. I think I heard that it’s a Japanese term for metal. The curado and the aldebaran are both “Hagane”...one frame is aluminum, the other is magnesium.

 

 

To the original question, I love magnesium reels. Some people don’t like the “hollowness” of some designs but that doesn’t bother me. They’re lightweight and feel like they can winch a steer. 

[Luke Barnes]

15 hours ago, Tywithay said:

The Shimano site says the hagane body is made of highly rigid such as aluminum and magnesium. 

The SLX XT has a hagane body, so with the wording they use it makes it easy for one to assume there would be some magnesium somewhere unless they state that certain models are aluminum and certain are magnesium. The state from Shimano makes it sound like its an alloy of both metals.

Either way I love my reel and its way more sturdy than the graphite frame reels i have and doesn't flex like graphite. 

[Tywithay]

23 minutes ago, Luke Barnes said:

The SLX XT has a hagane body, so with the wording they use it makes it easy for one to assume there would be some magnesium somewhere unless they state that certain models are aluminum and certain are magnesium. The state from Shimano makes it sound like its an alloy of both metals.

Either way I love my reel and its way more sturdy than the graphite frame reels i have and doesn't flex like graphite. 

Right from the Shimano site. Body material: aluminum + high strain resin. Body is aluminum, sideplates are graphite. The hagane concept says metals "such as," not that it utilizes both. If a restaurant sells meats such as beef and chicken, it doesn't mean they're mixed together. 

[MickD]

Lots of opinions, no data.  In MY opinion, the best material for reel frames is Cargonite (no, not Carbonite).  It is the strongest material known to man.  Just don't expose it to  Kriptonite.   

 

This whole discussion doesn't define "strength."  Yield strength?  Ultimate strength?  Modulus of elasticity?  Any of these divided by density?   A couple pretty good attempts, but no agreement on the definition of strength.  Yes Hagane is a wonder material (or philosophy) of some undefined sort, kind of like Cargonite.  (Only not as strong)  :-)

[NOC 1]

7 hours ago, Luke Barnes said:

Then why would they advertise that is made of aluminum and magnesium if its just aluminum??

It probably is an alloy. Pure Aluminum and pure Magnesium are rarely used. Ordinarily they are alloyed. Magnesium with Aluminum, and Aluminum most commonly with Magnesium and Silicon.

 

I notice that neither Daiwa or Shimano call their material by a standard name, instead they refer to them as "Air Metal" and "Hagane". I doubt that they would be willing to out their actual materials used, but I'd bet that they aren't busy at either factories mixing up batches of proprietary alloys.

3 hours ago, MickD said:

Lots of opinions, no data.  In MY opinion, the best material for reel frames is Cargonite (no, not Carbonite).  It is the strongest material known to man.  Just don't expose it to  Kriptonite.   

 

This whole discussion doesn't define "strength."  Yield strength?  Ultimate strength?  Modulus of elasticity?  Any of these divided by density?   A couple pretty good attempts, but no agreement on the definition of strength.  Yes Hagane is a wonder material (or philosophy) of some undefined sort, kind of like Cargonite.  (Only not as strong)  ?

Well, This whole discussion isn't about strength is it? No surprise to me that no one is posting data on various strength properties. we are discussing vibration transmission and damping characteristics.

 

I posted as about as much technical gibber Jabber as I figured most people reading would, (or perhaps more to the point, would want to read). This is after all a fishing forum, not an engineering forum.

 

We could I suppose we COULD  discuss whether dampening in fishing reels is best expressed as the tangential angle between stress and strain vectors trying to get a read on inter-granular friction, or the relative blunting of wave peaks under forced oscillation, or maybe even the co-efficient that represents the reduction of the wave's amplitude as it travels along a material...But I don't think it would attract to many participants...Fishing reels and gear noise Mick..

 

 

 

[MickD]

1 hour ago, NOC 1 said:

Well, This whole discussion isn't about strength is it?

Strength is the only characteristic the original poster asked about.  

[.ghoti.]

Hagane is steel in Japanese . Tamahagane is Japanese for jewel steel, or gem steel, and is produced for knife making.

 

Shimano’s use of the term is a corruption of the original meaning, thus is actually meaningless.

[Tywithay]

1 hour ago, .ghoti. said:

Hagane is steel in Japanese . Tamahagane is Japanese for jewel steel, or gem steel, and is produced for knife making.

 

Shimano’s use of the term is a corruption of the original meaning, thus is actually meaningless.

I think Shimano's "hagane concept" was taken from the literal translation, in that they're trying to make their reels as strong as steel.

[CrankFate]

I prefer magnesium. It’s smoother and quieter than other materials. It definitely absorbs vibration. But since it is only in better reels, they probably vibrate less to begin with. As a metal, it is known for absorbing vibration, Even the cheap Omoto Cerveza reel I use that is magnesium absorbs vibrations like plastic, but fishes like metal. 
 

Quote

when it comes to damping capacity, nothing is superior to magnesium.

 

https://luxferga.com/wrought-magnesium-plate-for-vibration-testing/
 

That’s all well and good, but I see why some don’t like it. It’s basically the opposite of the super rigid high modulus graphite a lot of people prefer in their rods for “sensitivity.” It’s ok for me, I’m sensitive enough without it.