lithium batteries

[texaslawdog]

Here I'm all set to purchase 2 lithium batteries for a 24 volt motor and I see a warning that you can't run these batteries in series?  True or not?  If so, glad I saw this warning in time.  Meanwhile, are there lithium batteries that you can run in series?  In addition, now I see lithium ion batteries as well as lithium iron batteries?  Where did these come from.  Can you use one of each on a motor?  Also, are there 24 volt lithium batteries and where can I find them?  I looked at a Torqueedo motor but I'm wondering how much power the battery has.  I'm looking at getting 100ah batteries.  What are the TQ batteries rated at? Thanks! 

[Tennessee Boy]

Where did you see this warning?  I don't own lithium ion batteries but I've considered them.  The ones I've looked at can be wired in series or in parallel.  I wouldn't take anyones word on matters like this other than the manufacturer. 

 

These are the ones I've considered and it says on the website that they can be wired in series.

 

https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/lithium-marine-batteries

[texaslawdog]

10 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Where did you see this warning?  I don't own lithium ion batteries but I've considered them.  The ones I've looked at can be wired in series or in parallel.  I wouldn't take anyones word on matters like this other than the manufacturer. 

 

These are the ones I've considered and it says on the website that they can be wired in series.

 

https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/lithium-marine-batteries

thank you for the referral.  these batteries are more expensive than the ones I have looked at.  Maybe being able to put them in series drives up the cost?  Well, at least there are some available.  Thanks again!

[WRB]

Lithium Pros are being advertised in Bassmaster. All the marine lithium ion batteries are still expensive. The fact you have 1 battery for 24V or 36V that saves a lot of weight and charges much faster is a advantage. 

I believe you also need a special charging system for lithium ion deep cycle batteries, not sure batteries in series can be charged correctly. Definately contact the battery mfr with your questions.

Tom

 

[texaslawdog]

On 3/14/2020 at 3:31 PM, WRB said:

Lithium Pros are being advertised in Bassmaster. All the marine lithium ion batteries are still expensive. The fact you have 1 battery for 24V or 36V that saves a lot of weight and charges much faster is a advantage. 

I believe you also need a special charging system for lithium ion deep cycle batteries, not sure batteries in series can be charged correctly. Definately contact the battery mfr with your questions.

Tom

 

Hey Tom, thanks for your input, I would definitely contact the manufacturer before ordering this type of battery.

[Reverendo]

Rather than start another thread, let me add to this one since the topic is the same.  Hopefully I'm not high jacking the main theme. 

I too have been exploring the possibility of going with lithium batteries for my Trolling motor (Minn Kota 24v 70/80#). 

While the cost is steep, if I do the math, they'll come out cheaper than replacing regular batteries every 2-3 years... if they are indeed 10 year batteries.  

Currently, I'm using a pair of Brute Force Puretron AGM series 34 batteries, inside my console (Mako 18LTS).  Being that they are dual purpose, I'm not getting the longevity I thought I would get, which is why I'm considering the lithiums. So I have a few questions about the lithiums: 

Minn Kota says their charger will charge the Lithiums if I set the charger to AGM.  Fine.  But they also warned that Lithiums run hotter when the TM is set to high, and this can ruin the motor.  Can anyone verify this?  

Also I'm assuming that I'd need a deep cycle version of the lithium, but I'm not seeing many options.  Any brands I should be looking at?

[Guitarfish]

I'm no help at all but has anybody checked out the videos about smaller lithium batteries burning up?

 

They burn like flares when they go off.  Would be a nightmare in a boat.  I have stacks of battery powered tools charging all the time and even that has me thinking.

[Smalls]

10 hours ago, Guitarfish said:

I'm no help at all but has anybody checked out the videos about smaller lithium batteries burning up?

 

They burn like flares when they go off.  Would be a nightmare in a boat.  I have stacks of battery powered tools charging all the time and even that has me thinking.

https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2012/january/hazards.asp

 

Without a good battery management system, thermal runaway is a serious concern. 

 

The BMS is also what makes them more difficult to hook up together. Some BMS's won't support it. If it does, the batteries being connected should all be new, and they need to be within a certain voltage (I've been told .2 amps) of each other when hooked together. Otherwise the stronger battery will drain the weaker battery. 

 

That's how it was explained to me, anyway. I failed most of my science classes, so I highly recommend doing your own research. 

[Scott F]

1 hour ago, Smalls said:

https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2012/january/hazards.asp

 

Without a good battery management system, thermal runaway is a serious concern. 

 

The BMS is also what makes them more difficult to hook up together. Some BMS's won't support it. If it does, the batteries being connected should all be new, and they need to be within a certain voltage (I've been told .2 amps) of each other when hooked together. Otherwise the stronger battery will drain the weaker battery. 

 

That's how it was explained to me, anyway. I failed most of my science classes, so I highly recommend doing your own research. 

That article is 8 years old. Any more recent articles that might reflect the current technology?

[Smalls]

10 minutes ago, Scott F said:

That article is 8 years old. Any more recent articles that might reflect the current technology?

Old, but still relevant.

 

Lithium ion is inherintly unstable. The BMS prevents overcharging and thermal runaway. A faulty BMS is still a concern 8 years later. 

[texaslawdog]

WOW, all great points to consider and possibly some serious concerns.  Does an aluminum boat help alleviate some concern and a fire extinguisher as well?  Do we not use some products because of the failure of a few?  If so, we don't have many products left.  I realize a potential fire is much more dangerous than some other perceived failings, but still?  What about the lithium batteries housed in steel containers.  Wouldn't that be a great deterrent?  But then maybe we're defeating a huge advantage(more weight)?

[Fishingmickey]

On 3/11/2020 at 6:12 PM, texaslawdog said:

Here I'm all set to purchase 2 lithium batteries for a 24 volt motor and I see a warning that you can't run these batteries in series?  True or not?  If so, glad I saw this warning in time.  Meanwhile, are there lithium batteries that you can run in series?  In addition, now I see lithium ion batteries as well as lithium iron batteries?  Where did these come from.  Can you use one of each on a motor?  Also, are there 24 volt lithium batteries and where can I find them?  I looked at a Torqueedo motor but I'm wondering how much power the battery has.  I'm looking at getting 100ah batteries.  What are the TQ batteries rated at? Thanks! 

I just recently purchased a Torqueedo 1103 ultralight for my Kayak. It came with their 915w (watt) 29 volt battery. I don't think I can run other batteries with it. It has it's own remote throttle/ display that includes range and percentage of charge left. Here is the specs for the battery.

Fishingmickey

---

• High-performance lithium battery with integrated GPS receiver
• 915 Wh
• 29.6 V
• 31 Ah
• USB adapter for operating other electrical equipment

[texaslawdog]

7 hours ago, Fishingmickey said:

I just recently purchased a Torqueedo 1103 ultralight for my Kayak. It came with their 915w (watt) 29 volt battery. I don't think I can run other batteries with it. It has it's own remote throttle/ display that includes range and percentage of charge left. Here is the specs for the battery.

Fishingmickey

---

• High-performance lithium battery with integrated GPS receiver
• 915 Wh
• 29.6 V
• 31 Ah
• USB adapter for operating other electrical equipment

I looked at this setup also but, rated at only 31Ah I worry it won't last very long while in use.  What has been your experience with this battery and how long does it last until it drains out?  I'm planning on using my setup to take the place of a propulsion gas outboard so I need an even stronger battery system?  Thanks for the info!

[Tennessee Boy]

3 hours ago, texaslawdog said:

I looked at this setup also but, rated at only 31Ah I worry it won't last very long while in use.  

Keep in mind that an amp at one voltage is not the same as an amp at another voltage. This is a 29.6V battery. Watt hours is a more accurate way to measure battery capacity.  915 Wh is roughly equivalent to 76 Ah at 12 volts.

[Smalls]

20 hours ago, texaslawdog said:

WOW, all great points to consider and possibly some serious concerns.  Does an aluminum boat help alleviate some concern and a fire extinguisher as well?  Do we not use some products because of the failure of a few?  If so, we don't have many products left.  I realize a potential fire is much more dangerous than some other perceived failings, but still?  What about the lithium batteries housed in steel containers.  Wouldn't that be a great deterrent?  But then maybe we're defeating a huge advantage(more weight)?

I don't think a fire extinguisher will put them out, and I'm too lazy to Google it. 

 

LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries are basically the safe alternative to Lithium Ion. 

[Fishingmickey]

18 hours ago, texaslawdog said:

I looked at this setup also but, rated at only 31Ah I worry it won't last very long while in use.  What has been your experience with this battery and how long does it last until it drains out?  I'm planning on using my setup to take the place of a propulsion gas outboard so I need an even stronger battery system?  Thanks for the info!

     I have had it out a few times so far and haven't gotten enough stick time experience to tell you how long it will last. it will push my loaded down PA14 at 6mph full throttle. Like all trolling motors if you run it at full throttle it sucks the battery down quick (fourty five minutes to a hour maybe a hour and a half I'm guessing). Now if you back off the throttle it will last a much longer time. You can probably run it at 1/3 - 1/2 speed and get a full day's fishing out of it. The 1103 is rated at 3hp and a 115#'s thrust. Honestly it made me giddy when I took it out for the first time and opened it up. Yaaah it was serious fun!

Fishingmickey

[texaslawdog]

5 hours ago, Fishingmickey said:

     I have had it out a few times so far and haven't gotten enough stick time experience to tell you how long it will last. it will push my loaded down PA14 at 6mph full throttle. Like all trolling motors if you run it at full throttle it sucks the battery down quick (fourty five minutes to a hour maybe a hour and a half I'm guessing). Now if you back off the throttle it will last a much longer time. You can probably run it at 1/3 - 1/2 speed and get a full day's fishing out of it. The 1103 is rated at 3hp and a 115#'s thrust. Honestly it made me giddy when I took it out for the first time and opened it up. Yaaah it was serious fun!

Fishingmickey

I still have reservations about this motor and it may be unfounded but I need to know for sure its performance for a full day of hard use and if weather turns bad quickly I need to be able to get back to the dock quickly and safely.

[Goose52]

On 3/11/2020 at 4:12 PM, texaslawdog said:

Here I'm all set to purchase 2 lithium batteries for a 24 volt motor and I see a warning that you can't run these batteries in series?  True or not?  If so, glad I saw this warning in time.  Meanwhile, are there lithium batteries that you can run in series?  In addition, now I see lithium ion batteries as well as lithium iron batteries?  Where did these come from.  Can you use one of each on a motor?  Also, are there 24 volt lithium batteries and where can I find them?  I looked at a Torqueedo motor but I'm wondering how much power the battery has.  I'm looking at getting 100ah batteries.  What are the TQ batteries rated at? Thanks! 

You already have some good responses from folks so I can't add a lot. I can say that I have been considering getting a "Lithium" battery for several years. I was hoping that they would become mainstream and would show up at sellers in my local area. Hasn't happened yet. So, after checking out a lot of threads on several boards, I ended up getting a 100AH Lithium Iron Phosphate battery labeled as the "Ionic" brand.  This is a made in China battery that is sold here in the U.S. by Lithiumhub.com.  The battery is bluetooth enabled and you can check the charge status and other parameters of the battery through your smart phone. I just started using it this season so I cannot give a long-term report. I use this battery to power the trolling motor on my canoe as well as a Helix 10 sonar.  

 

For me, the primary benefit is reduction of weight - my old Group 24 lead-acid battery (about 75AH) in a Minn Kota Power Center box weighed 54 pounds. The new Lithium 100AH battery in the same box weighs 33 pounds - MUCH easier to get in and out of the car and boat. I also get an additional 25+ amp hours for that 21 pound weight reduction.

 

If the battery truly lasts approximately 3,000 cycles - I will not need another battery for more than 10 years. However, it would still be cheaper to buy a lead-acid battery every 3 or 4 years - in my case, I am paying the premium to get that weight reduction and the additional storage capacity.

 

You might want to visit and browse through the Lithiumhub.com web site for more info. They also seem to be quick to reply to questions submitted via email.  On their batteries, you CAN run them in series, but you cannot charge them in series according to their web site. Also - they do offer a 50AH 24v battery and you could run several of those in parallel.

[texaslawdog]

On 4/3/2020 at 1:22 PM, Goose52 said:

You already have some good responses from folks so I can't add a lot. I can say that I have been considering getting a "Lithium" battery for several years. I was hoping that they would become mainstream and would show up at sellers in my local area. Hasn't happened yet. So, after checking out a lot of threads on several boards, I ended up getting a 100AH Lithium Iron Phosphate battery labeled as the "Ionic" brand.  This is a made in China battery that is sold here in the U.S. by Lithiumhub.com.  The battery is bluetooth enabled and you can check the charge status and other parameters of the battery through your smart phone. I just started using it this season so I cannot give a long-term report. I use this battery to power the trolling motor on my canoe as well as a Helix 10 sonar.  

 

For me, the primary benefit is reduction of weight - my old Group 24 lead-acid battery (about 75AH) in a Minn Kota Power Center box weighed 54 pounds. The new Lithium 100AH battery in the same box weighs 33 pounds - MUCH easier to get in and out of the car and boat. I also get an additional 25+ amp hours for that 21 pound weight reduction.

 

If the battery truly lasts approximately 3,000 cycles - I will not need another battery for more than 10 years. However, it would still be cheaper to buy a lead-acid battery every 3 or 4 years - in my case, I am paying the premium to get that weight reduction and the additional storage capacity.

 

You might want to visit and browse through the Lithiumhub.com web site for more info. They also seem to be quick to reply to questions submitted via email.  On their batteries, you CAN run them in series, but you cannot charge them in series according to their web site. Also - they do offer a 50AH 24v battery and you could run several of those in parallel.

thank you G52, I will check out this site today!

[Rocketvapor]

I've 'played' with Lithium Ion batteries for years.

Some even went into space when I was employed

 

If connecting two in series go with the manufacturer's recommendations.  

Li-ion CELLS come from a few different sources but everyone and their uncle makes protection circuitry/Battery Management Systems.  The automotive electric vehicle industry provides the cells for most high capacity batteries.

Li-ion 12 volt batteries have 3 cells connected in series, LiFePO4 batteries have 4 cells connected in series. 

 

I'm sure everyone has experienced a lead acid battery with a weak cell, but with Li-ion batteries (cells connected in series) a weak cell has to be detected at the cell level.  The BMS will detect a low voltage cell and cut off the battery.  

Now, if two 12v batteries are connected is series for 24 volts and one cell is cut off, the electronic components in each 12v BMS may not be designed for the remaining voltage and burn out, losing protection.  

Sorry if that doesn't make sense.  

Sort of like running a 12 volt car radio on 24 volts, The BMS of each 12v battery has to be able to handle 24v.  Some will, some might not.  

Ask the manufacturer.  

 

Most catastrophic failures with Li-ion batteries happen when charging, or first use after improper charging like an overcharged cell (voltage) or charging at too high a rate (too many amps). 

 

Here is my GPS/Fishfinder/Radio/Nav light battery pack.

Not suitable for Trolling Motor.  Charging is done with a Balance Charger that monitors each  group of cells (4v, 8v and 12v points).  The blue one is 12v, 80AH less than 20 pounds I will be working up for TM.