Another tragedy, another reminder....

[TnRiver46]

7 hours ago, SuperDuty said:

My post was in response to tnrivers post about a 200 yard swim to an island being tough. That's assuming he's done it in ideal situations and not 40 degree temps. ?

I have never swam in 40 degree water and if I ever do, you can have all my rattle traps because I'll be dead

[BassNJake]

When I went overboard at the ramp in about 10 feet with my bib overalls on, it was no joke trying to resurface.

It felt like chains were holding me down.

 

Now I put the vest on before I launch

[VolFan]

I always tell people who are getting into kayaking to go abuse the stability of their boat in a controlled environment so that they know what it really is, and they know what it feels like to fall out, especially in cold water.  Its like a sledgehammer to the chest and then swimming in cement.

[A-Jay]

I trained routinely in cold ocean water.

Although always properly equip, it's still no joke.

Total body Immersion in water below 50 degrees just flat out Hurts ! 

Especially going in unexpectedly.

Here is some supplemental info ~ 

Stay Safe

A-Jay

 

[Michigander]

On 2/10/2020 at 3:51 PM, VolFan said:

I always tell people who are getting into kayaking to go abuse the stability of their boat in a controlled environment so that they know what it really is, and they know what it feels like to fall out, especially in cold water.  Its like a sledgehammer to the chest and then swimming in cement.

I always wear my PFD but when I am cold water kayaking I tend to stay in areas where I could walk to shore if need be. Not worth the risk being out in the middle of nowhere. Thankfully,  my kayak is slow and very stable, I would have to do something truly stupid to tip over in it.

[Sam]

On 1/29/2020 at 6:50 AM, SuperDuty said:

I did a mile and half in the ocean in aircrew survival school. Guess that's why a 1/4 mile seems easily doable to me. But the real cold water may play a huge part.

 

So let's hear the story how you flipped your yak on dead calm water ?

I swim for exercise almost every day between 25 and 30 minutes in a 91* heated water rehab indoor swimming pool and believe me, 600 yards is a lot of water to cover in my swim trunks. I don't know if I could do 600 yards in street clothes and I know I don't think I could do it in cold water.

[N Florida Mike]

I nearly lost a friend who bought a small sailboat and went out with his girlfriend to an 800 acre lake to try it out. They were out in the middle of the lake and decided to jump in for a swim. Did not anchor , the wind picked up , and they were in big trouble, as the sailboat drifted away, and they couldn’t catch it. She was a stronger swimmer than him and was able to get him back up several times as he would go under. Miraculously, a lone fisherman saw their plight and got there just in time.

Me and my girlfriend at the time showed up with my bass boat literally minutes later and saw the fear and shock they had of their close call.

Somehow,in the struggle they lost a tackle box with their car keys in it. The lake is app. 40 miles from town out in the woods.His dad had to come  all that way to bring the extra key , and hear the story of the very close call.

 

[SuperDuty]

5 hours ago, Sam said:

I swim for exercise almost every day between 25 and 30 minutes in a 91* heated water rehab indoor swimming pool and believe me, 600 yards is a lot of water to cover in my swim trunks. I don't know if I could do 600 yards in street clothes and I know I don't think I could do it in cold water.

As I've said a couple of times now, my comment was about the distance only, not the water temperature. I have zero experience swimming in very cold water. I do have experience swimming great distances and know that 600 yards isn't that bad. I've actually done lots of long distance swimming in my time. I use to snorkel off my boat in the gulf of Mexico for scallops and could be in the water for a very long time. I remember one time having looked up and the boat was so far off I thought it was gone, it was barely a speckle. 

Regardless, there are countless of true stories of people swimming extreme distances out of survival. When the human mind is in survival mode, it takes on overwhelming strength and determination. 

When I did the Navy aircrew survival training I was in my early 20's, just a kid. Who knows if I could still do that at almost 50. I think I could still do 600 yards, though. 

 

[SuperDuty]

25 minutes ago, N Florida Mike said:

I nearly lost a friend who bought a small sailboat and went out with his girlfriend to an 800 acre lake to try it out. They were out in the middle of the lake and decided to jump in for a swim. Did not anchor , the wind picked up , and they were in big trouble, as the sailboat drifted away, and they couldn’t catch it. She was a stronger swimmer than him and was able to get him back up several times as he would go under. Miraculously, a lone fisherman saw their plight and got there just in time.

Me and my girlfriend at the time showed up with my bass boat literally minutes later and saw the fear and shock they had of their close call.

Somehow,in the struggle they lost a tackle box with their car keys in it. The lake is app. 40 miles from town out in the woods.His dad had to come  all that way to bring the extra key , and hear the story of the very close call.

 

Panic is what gets most people. The human body is very buoyant and will float. It doesn't take much effort to stay above and survive and that's exactly why I say 600 yards is doable by most people. Swim until you need a break and then turn over on your back and float for a little bit to take a break, then swim some more. Mix in some back swimming, just do whatever it takes to get there. I'm not talking about just arm over arm nonstop swimming. 

I also had a run-in once with unexpected large waves and that was a game changer on swimming. There are definitely variables that can make a challenging swim that much more challenging.  

 

 

***** my comments are about swimming in general, not cold water swimming ****

[DanielG]

Here in Maine, and living at the lake, I sometimes wait too long to remove the pier and raft. Sometimes I have to get into the water when no one else would. It's just a short time but a swim of about 100 ft (and I grew up in the water) at very cold temperatures is just extremely difficult. The shock of submersion never lets go. Your breathing is shallow and difficult and it just feels like you have to be someplace else, anyplace. Swimming feels dangerous as you always feel on the edge of distress.

It's not just hypothermia with cold water. It's also difficult to be in it from the start.

[Hi-Powered Red Neck]

On 1/28/2020 at 9:54 PM, SuperDuty said:

I've never been in very cold water like that so didn't/don't know how it effects you, or how quickly. I was just thinking how easy 600 yards would be to swim in a few minutes. 

As long as you didn't get knocked it the head falling out. It's not about being in good enough shape to swim that distance. It's about staying afloat if you get knocked out. 

[A-Jay]

On 2/14/2020 at 7:15 AM, SuperDuty said:

Panic is what gets most people. The human body is very buoyant and will float. It doesn't take much effort to stay above and survive and that's exactly why I say 600 yards is doable by most people. Swim until you need a break and then turn over on your back and float for a little bit to take a break, then swim some more. Mix in some back swimming, just do whatever it takes to get there. I'm not talking about just arm over arm nonstop swimming. 

I also had a run-in once with unexpected large waves and that was a game changer on swimming. There are definitely variables that can make a challenging swim that much more challenging.  

 

 

***** my comments are about swimming in general, not cold water swimming ****

While I will agree keeping level head during any unexpected event can greatly increase ones rate of success, 

my experience has shown that even 100 yds is a stretch for adults that are in 'average' physical condition, which the Vast Majority of humans these days do not meet.  So covering a distance that's over a quarter of a mile across open water, even without any waves or current, is almost completely out of the question - especially fully clothed. 

  Some context - Besides a couple of decades of Search & Rescue experience on the water, I participated in the evaluation of 17 - 28 year old men & women, in their ability to pass a '100 yd swim test' in a Heated Olympic pool. 

50 - 120 humans a week, 50 weeks a year, for 8 years. 

They all knew in advance the test was a pass / fail deal, many of them 'trained' for the test months in advance of getting to boot camp. These young adults were is at Least as good (and most likely much better shape) than a good portion of the much older adults reading this response.  Trainees were not allowed to flip over on their back at any point but could utilize a breast or side arm stroke.  Men wore swim trunks and women wore a one-piece swim suit. Test required them to step off a 5 ft platform, surface and cover the required 100 yd distance.  While each group's pass / fail percentage varied a bit, 50 % passed no problem; 30-40 % struggled mightily but in the end, barely passed; the other 10 to sometimes 20% failed.  The service had a remedial swim program where non-swimmers would come to the pool very early morning and were taught to swim and re-tested near the end of the 8-week training program.  I did that for 18 months. That program has a very high success rate to where it's super rare that a trainee is sent home for swim test failure. 

  All that said & done this is only 100 yds, in a controlled environment in a heated pool in swim trunks.

 

I post All This to stress a very important point that revolves around survival when one goes in the drink.

If you are alone, and your boat is capsized or you can not get back in it, EVEN IF YOU ARE WEARING A LIFE JACKET, unless you are very accomplished swimmer (like you were the Captain of the swim Team in High School or college) 

Stay with your craft - do not 'swim for it'.  Distances across open water are hard to judge and often much further than it looks.  Add wind, waves & current, and your job just got a lot harder.  When your rescuers come looking for you - your craft is a much bigger target and so much easier to locate than just your tiny little head appearing for a second or two between waves- because that's all we can see while you're swimming for it. (or just floating because you're exhausted).

  And prior to EVERY trip on the water, make certain someone responsible (insert adult) knows where you’re going, what you’re driving (Tow vehicle, Boat & Trailer description & tags #'s help a bunch) where you’re launching from and when to expect you home.  And if you change plans – Let Them Know.  Additionally, I’d encourage you to also leave them with the number & info of who you want them to call if you don’t return on time. (Police, US Coast Guard, Fire Rescue etc). Hope this helps

Stay Safe 

A-Jay

 

[DogBone_384]

Well said A-Jay. My city has 27 miles of coastline and because of that all FD personnel have to be able to swim 250 yds in less than 7 minutes. 
 

During our academy we swim for an hour, M-F, for 10 weeks. Your data accurately represents most of our classes.

 

After 17 years, I still swim a mile two or three nights a week to ensure I can swim when needed.

[VolFan]

When you go into cold water, your circulatory system very quickly restricts the circulation to your extremities, 'circling the wagons' as it were to limit heat loss and maximize core temp. Your limbs become fairly useless pretty quickly. Your body will keep you alive for a decent time, but still holding onto a boat or having a pfd keeping you on the surface is your best chance of discovery and survival.

[Darren.]

2 minutes ago, VolFan said:

When you go into cold water, your circulatory system very quickly restricts the circulation to your extremities, 'circling the wagons' as it were to limit heat loss and maximize core temp. Your limbs become fairly useless pretty quickly. Your body will keep you alive for a decent time, but still holding onto a boat or having a pfd keeping you on the surface is your best chance of discovery and survival.

I just have to state the obvious here.

 

 

Now if only the Bills actually had this effect on their opponents.

 

Sorry, saw the circling the wagons thing and had to interject

this. Hey, I'm the OP, so no worries!

 

Totally respect your comment, though. Quite true. PFD is what

will keep you afloat, and hopefully alive.

1 hour ago, A-Jay said:

While I will agree keeping level head during any unexpected event can greatly increase ones rate of success, 

my experience has shown that even 100 yds is a stretch for adults that are in 'average' physical condition, which the Vast Majority of humans these days do not meet.  So covering a distance that's over a quarter of a mile across open water, even without any waves or current, is almost completely out of the question - especially fully clothed. 

  Some context - Besides a couple of decades of Search & Rescue experience on the water, I participated in the evaluation of 17 - 28 year old men & women, in their ability to pass a '100 yd swim test' in a Heated Olympic pool. 

50 - 120 humans a week, 50 weeks a year, for 8 years. 

They all knew in advance the test was a pass / fail deal, many of them 'trained' for the test months in advance of getting to boot camp. These young adults were is at Least as good (and most likely much better shape) than a good portion of the much older adults reading this response.  Trainees were not allowed to flip over on their back at any point but could utilize a breast or side arm stroke.  Men wore swim trunks and women wore a one-piece swim suit. Test required them to step off a 5 ft platform, surface and cover the required 100 yd distance.  While each group's pass / fail percentage varied a bit, 50 % passed no problem; 30-40 % struggled mightily but in the end, barely passed; the other 10 to sometimes 20% failed.  The service had a remedial swim program where non-swimmers would come to the pool very early morning and were taught to swim and re-tested near the end of the 8-week training program.  I did that for 18 months. That program has a very high success rate to where it's super rare that a trainee is sent home for swim test failure. 

  All that said & done this is only 100 yds, in a controlled environment in a heated pool in swim trunks.

 

I post All This to stress a very important point that revolves around survival when one goes in the drink.

If you are alone, and your boat is capsized or you can not get back in it, EVEN IF YOU ARE WEARING A LIFE JACKET, unless you are very accomplished swimmer (like you were the Captain of the swim Team in High School or college) 

Stay with your craft - do not 'swim for it'.  Distances across open water are hard to judge and often much further than it looks.  Add wind, waves & current, and your job just got a lot harder.  When your rescuers come looking for you - your craft is a much bigger target and so much easier to locate than just your tiny little head appearing for a second or two between waves- because that's all we can see while you're swimming for it. (or just floating because you're exhausted).

  And prior to EVERY trip on the water, make certain someone responsible (insert adult) knows where you’re going, what you’re driving (Tow vehicle, Boat & Trailer description & tags #'s help a bunch) where you’re launching from and when to expect you home.  And if you change plans – Let Them Know.  Additionally, I’d encourage you to also leave them with the number & info of who you want them to call if you don’t return on time. (Police, US Coast Guard, Fire Rescue etc). Hope this helps

Stay Safe 

A-Jay

 

I can tell you that the majority of people I know canNOT swim 600 

yards to save their lives, especially in tidal waters, which is where

this tragedy occurred.

 

And I live near the USCG base in Yorktown, VA. All of my sons have

been on swim teams, lifeguarding, etc. Three of my boys work (or have

worked) at the USCG base as lifeguards. While my boys can probably 

swim 600 yards, I'd say few adults in my area could.

 

That pertains to swimming in general.

[A-Jay]

7 minutes ago, Darren. said:

I just have to state the obvious here.

 

 

Now if only the Bills actually had this effect on their opponents.

 

Sorry, saw the circling the wagons thing and had to interject

this. Hey, I'm the OP, so no worries!

 

Totally respect your comment, though. Quite true. PFD is what

will keep you afloat, and hopefully alive.

I can tell you that the majority of people I know canNOT swim 600 

yards to save their lives, especially in tidal waters, which is where

this tragedy occurred.

 

And I live near the USCG base in Yorktown, VA. All of my sons have

been on swim teams, lifeguarding, etc. Three of my boys work (or have

worked) at the USCG base as lifeguards. While my boys can probably 

swim 600 yards, I'd say few adults in my area could.

 

That pertains to swimming in general.

Pretty sure, fully clothed, without a Life Jacket - I'd struggle.

A-Jay

[Darren.]

2 minutes ago, A-Jay said:

Pretty sure, fully clothed, without a Life Jacket - I'd struggle.

A-Jay

Considering your shape, if you'd struggle, I'd be the (current)

equivalent of a boat anchor  . Though I'm getting up to a

moderate run (jog) on the treadmill, and down over 16 pounds

in a month!

[A-Jay]

Just now, Darren. said:

Considering your shape, if you'd struggle, I'd be the (current)

equivalent of a boat anchor  . Though I'm getting up to a

moderate run (jog) on the treadmill, and down over 16 pounds

in a month!

That is FANTASTIC my Friend ~ 

Know that feels really good.

Can't wait to hear what's next for you. 

 

 I'm an 'average swimmer'.

 I'm being realistic about my abilities, as I had the distinct privileged of serving side by side with

 some men & women who, when it comes to being in the water -

these folks were like super heroes 

When you jump out of a helicopter into the cold blackness of the bitter north Atlantic in January 50 or a 100 miles off shore at night for a living, you're at the very top of the bar - by yourself. 

 

And here's a little fun fact about recuse swimmers, after the helicopter crew makes a rescue at sea,  depending on how many survivors are recovered, if there's no room left for the swimmer, THEY LEAVE HIM OR HER IN THE OCEAN, take the survivors back to get treatment and then go back and recover the swimmer - sometimes that takes a while.

Talk about feeling small . . . . .

A-Jay

[Darren.]

1 minute ago, A-Jay said:

That is FANTASTIC my Friend ~ 

Know that feels really good.

Can't wait to hear what's next for you. 

 

 I'm an 'average swimmer'.

 I'm being realistic about my abilities, as I had the distinct privileged of serving side by side with

 some men & women who, when it comes to being in the water -

these folks were like super heroes 

When you jump out of a helicopter into the cold blackness of the bitter north Atlantic in January 50 or a 100 miles off shore at night for a living, you're at the very top of the bar - by yourself. 

 

And here's a little fun fact about recuse swimmers, after the helicopter crew makes a rescue at sea,  depending on how many survivors are recovered, if there's no room left for the swimmer, THEY LEAVE HIM OR HER IN THE OCEAN, take the survivors back to get treatment and then go back and recover the swimmer - sometimes that takes a while.

Talk about feeling small . . . . .

A-Jay

I've seen some of the rescue-in-a-hurricane videos from the CG.

 

If they can leave some in the ocean, the raging, frothing, mad,

ocean, then those peeps should be in Marvel movies alongside

Iron Man, and the rest.

[Glenn]

Regardless of who thinks they can swim better than the other, a lifevest is the great equalizer.  Wear it.

 

Debating about physical prowess is pointless to the topic.