Downsizing the rig’s tow vehicle

[Ohio Archer]

I “upgraded” and downsized at the same time. I had an ‘03 GMC Sierra with a 5.3 but purchased a ‘18 Chevy Colorado with a 2.8 turbo diesel. Tow rating is 7700# which is way more than my Skeeter. Tows great, exceptional fuel mileage towing and unloaded. It’s been a good truck so far.  34,500 miles in two years. It’s my first diesel and has done everything I’ve needed it to do. 

[SuperDuty]

1 minute ago, Ohio Archer said:

I “upgraded” and downsized at the same time. I had an ‘03 GMC Sierra with a 5.3 but purchased a ‘18 Chevy Colorado with a 2.8 turbo diesel. Tow rating is 7700# which is way more than my Skeeter. Tows great, exceptional fuel mileage towing and unloaded. It’s been a good truck so far.  34,500 miles in two years. It’s my first diesel and has done everything I’ve needed it to do. 

I bet that's a nice setup with tow capacity and fuel mileage. Best of both worlds!

[DanielG]

I'v got a 2015 F150 alt with a 5.0 V8 in it. 70,000 miles and nothing but maintenance. My tires and brakes will both get 80,000+ miles before needing replacement.

 

I've pulled a 14 ft V nose cargo conversion camper that is at least 4,000 lbs with absolutely no issues. no sway bars or trailer brakes needed. You don't know the weight is behind you.

 

That being said..my trailer is 7 ft tall. The wind resistance is a killer on mileage, but the mileage without the trailer aves 21.3 mpg. with the trailer 13.5 mpg. When I had a popup I only lost 1 mpg. So, as far as gas is concerned it's not the weight, it's the aerodynamics. A boat should be pretty good in that respect.

 

This is the best vehicle I've ever owned. Even topping the 2000 Tahoe I had awhile back which was pretty decent.

 

Regarding the electronics. I've found electronics in vehicles a positive thing to have. Way back when, the cars with barrel carbs and distributors would inevitably become worn over time.These electronic controls seem to keep the vehicle continually metered to keep it running smoothly, and they don't seem to go bad much. I'll take them over the old style any day.

 

These vehicles will also go into limp mode should the computers have an issue so they still work. And this truck, according to my manual will if overheating because of a radiator issue will run a short time by alternating the firing of pistons 4 on, and 4 off to keep the temperature down.... strange right?

 

Best vehicle I've ever owned, and it's a nice ride to boot.

[slonezp]

8 hours ago, SuperDuty said:

The EcoBoost are great trucks,  they really are. My brother in law is a master mechanic at Ford and says the turbos have very little issues which I wouldn't see why they would. Ford has been using turbos on their trucks for a very long time. I've got 110k miles on my Superduty turbo without a hiccup. The lady at work who manages our fleet says the EcoBoost have been some of the most problem free trucks we've had. And all the guys love the power they produce. 

 

I'm not brand loyal, I always buy whatever truck I like. You'll have issues with every manufacturer, as nothing is ever 100% problem free. Do your research on anything. The older dodge  trucks had major transmissions issues, Ford diesels had head gasket issues, toyota has issues, Chevy had their issues. Pick a handful of trucks you're interested in and research what common issues they have to eliminate the ones that are more serious. 

 

 

If I were going to buy a new truck today just for every day driving, I'd definitely have to give the new z71 chevy a hard look just because IMO it's the best looking truck on the road. But I certainly wouldn't be afraid of the F150 either. 

 

I mean look at this bad boy!

 

The GMC has a much nicer looking front end than the Chevy.

I also would never buy a GM product based on past experience, but that's just me.

 

I have no reason to buy a diesel. My brother, who is an OTR truck driver, was disappointed I didn't get one. I will say this. My SuperDuty is a 2017 with the 6.2 gas. My son bought a 2018 F150 with the 3.5 Ecoboost. He paid 10K more than I did but he has more bells and whistles. My truck rides like a truck and handles like a truck. I haven't driven his truck but I've been a passenger. The Ecoboost has some get up and go. The interior is also very roomy. I don't know how it tows, but overall, I think it's a real nice truck and the ride is much more comfortable than my SuperDuty.

[SuperDuty]

1 hour ago, slonezp said:

The GMC has a much nicer looking front end than the Chevy.

I also would never buy a GM product based on past experience, but that's just me.

 

I have no reason to buy a diesel. My brother, who is an OTR truck driver, was disappointed I didn't get one. I will say this. My SuperDuty is a 2017 with the 6.2 gas. My son bought a 2018 F150 with the 3.5 Ecoboost. He paid 10K more than I did but he has more bells and whistles. My truck rides like a truck and handles like a truck. I haven't driven his truck but I've been a passenger. The Ecoboost has some get up and go. The interior is also very roomy. I don't know how it tows, but overall, I think it's a real nice truck and the ride is much more comfortable than my SuperDuty.

Yeah those GM trucks are very sharp too. The front end reminds me of my wife's new 4runner. 

 

That ford 6.2 engine is well known for great reliability. If you don't need the extra pulling power of the diesel, that's the engine to have. My super duty rides like a log wagon although the 4" lift I installed on it made it ride better than the factory fx4 suspension it came with. I pull heavy with my truck regularly or I wouldn't have a diesel. 

[Fishing Rhino]

On 1/24/2020 at 9:00 PM, SuperDuty said:

Everything is going that way these days. All these manufacturers do is figure out a way to make things cheaper. Nothing is built to last anymore, it's built to replace in a few years. Ever wonder why you see lawn mowers from the 70's still being used but mowers from 2010 are broken down in someone's back yard?

 

One of my duties in the corporate world was to figure out how to save money via process improvements (lean manufacturing). Things like measuring how many steps it would take to perform a task and how to reduce it. 

 

It's not just Ford, it's every single one of them....I can give you a comparable story for Dodge, Chevy, Toyota, Nissan etc. 

Hmmmm. You can have all the cars of the bygone era.  If you had a car or truck that hit 100,000 miles it was an exceptional vehicle.  They all started burning oil by the time they had 30,000 miles on them.  Replace points, condenser, and rotors at ten thousand miles and spark plugs as well.

 

Now, spark plugs don't get changed until you reach 100,000 miles.  Shall we talk about the rust buckets of yesteryear.  Today's vehicles have it all over those of yesteryear.  You rarely see a vehicle leaving a plume of smoke behind.  They were common place fifty or sixty years ago..

 

Once upon a time I thought the old cars were better.  They were made of manly steel.  Rattles and wind noise were common.  When you consider the systems in today's autos, it amazes me that you can go down the road without something acting up.  Instead, they go for years, and with regular maintenance and a little tender loving car you can get many thousand miles of carefree driving.

 

Oh and shall we talk about the oil leaks of those old cars.  You could tell where they had been parked.  Puddles from the rear end, the transmission, and the engine left their evidence.

 

And one more thing.  Exhaust systems.  When was the last time you had the car in the shop for mufflers, resonators, and tail pipes.  Midas Muffler is now called Midas Auto Car or something like that.

 

"Midas : Brakes, Tires, Oil Change, All of Your Auto Repair ...

https://www.midas.com

Midas offers complete auto care for your vehicle. Whether it’s time for your next factory recommended maintenance visit, a routine oil change, new tires, or repair services on your brakes, muffler and exhaust, suspension, air conditioner, or any other mechanical or electrical component of your car, Midas is in your neighborhood and ready to serve you"

 

As a disclaimer, I started driving in the mid 1950s.  They were saying the same things then.  They don't make 'em like they used to was said back in the good ol' days.  They were wrong back in those days, and they are wrong today.

[Scott F]

I have to agree with Fishing Rhino. My new F150 gets twice the gas mileage of my first tow vehicle. Back up cameras that make hooking up my trailer a breeze and Apple Car Play lets me use my phone for in dash navigation and hundreds of hours of uninterrupted music are fantastic and not even a dream on cars or trucks from just a few years ago. Oil changes every 7500 miles. The technology has come so far and for the most part has made cars much more reliable with less maintenance than ever before. Yes they are now too complicated for back yard mechanics to work on, but the improvements outweigh the down sides. 

[Way2slow]

I've got nothing against technology.  Like said, back in the 60's and 70's, a car with 100,000 miles was consider the exception, and ready for the grave yard.  Today, 400,000 on many of them is not out of the question. 

Other than the VW bug, there weren't many carburetor engines getting 30mpg.  Not many full size cars getting 16 and mid size getting 20.  Today, those are all gas guzzlers, and who would have ever thought a few years ago they would ever own a full size truck with any kind of an engine getting over 20, and now the V8's are doing it.

The thing that bothers me is all this other high tech stuff they are going to.  Today, you need a very specialized computer that will communicate with the computer that's communicating with a couple of other computers. 

You already have the ECM communicating with the Anti-lock brake computer, the transmission computer, the body computer, that's communicating with a half dozen other computers.  Now they are adding in all this anti collision stuff, automatic parking and backing, and who knows what all.

This all just makes a vehicle extremely expensive to maintain.  A lot of this stuff they are going to, the are going proprietary with and only the dealers are going to the diagnostic equipment, and to keep it where their average mechanic can trouble shoot and repair it, it's all going modular so the whole assembly is replaced.  $500 - $1000 to replace a burned out headlamp is already here in some vehicles.

[Fishing Rhino]

I didn't even make one of the most important of the old vs new.  Safety.  

 

I do/did agree with the technology stuff. I used to do all my maintenance on my car.  I enjoyed tinkering, but when they came out with computer controlled engines, that day ended.  No pulling apart a distributor to check the points.  The vehicle had to be digitally analyzed.  I thought great, this is going to be a nightmare, and service would cost a fortune.

 

Turned out I was wrong.  The biggest problem and most common solution for the "check engine light" was the O2 sensor that had kicked the bucket.  

 

I remember when the PCVs first came out in cars, positive crankcase ventilation, where blowby was sucked into the carburetor, burned, and out through the exhaust.  Prior to that, blowby exited the vehicle through a "breather".  When an engine got enough wear, the engine went on an anti rust campaign and the engine along with other components got covered with a film of oil, which then collected dust and the engine became a slimy mess.  Leaking rocker arm cover gaskets would start seeping oil.  Sometimes just tightening the bolts would stop, or at least, slow down the oil exiting at the gaskets.  

 

Open the hood, do a ten or fifteen minute repair job and then spend a half hour scrubbing with lava soap or something similar to get the grease out from under your finger nails.  In fact, as I recall you would find a fingernail scrubbing brush on the sink in most homes.  20 mule team Borax was another standby for removing grease.  May as well have used 80 grit sandpaper.

 

Garages made a small fortune steam cleaning engines and the engine compartment, and the drive train.

[SuperDuty]

I didn't mean reliability, mainly just overall build quality. Things have been drastically cheapened up. Look at a brake rotor from the 80's and one from today. Ever wonder why you don't get your rotors turned anymore? Or the size of an axle of yesterday compared to one today? And the rust issue is most definitely still there. 

 

Reliability has come a long way but that isn't just because they're building better parts. It's because of a few different things like the quality of oil we use, fuel injection, sensors that are constantly monitoring and readjusting, diagnostics that notify us when there is an issue so we can address before it gets worse. 

 

Vehicles have gotten more reliable but IMO overall build quality isn't what it use to be. 

 

Safety is no doubt much better. 

 

The technology is two fold. These new cars will pretty much narrow down what's wrong for you. A OBD2 bluetooth adapter off of Amazon is $20 and will tell you so many things. I use use that and the free Forscan app, and can pretty much do any diagnostics under the sun on any Ford. Heck it told me exactly which injector was bad.  It'll read every sensor in my truck and tell me the values. It gives a back yard mechanic like myself to do my own work. But electronic components/software can be difficult to diagnose too. 

 

Yesterdays autos were so very simple to work on. Air fuel spark were all ya needed to know and only had a handful of things to contend with. Today though, it's air, fuel, spark, technology. 

 

I started off in life as a licensed electrician and then moved into IT and spent 24 years in that field so technology and electronics is something I know very very well.  I'm not at all intimidated by the technology of these new rides but I also appreciate the ease of repair of the old 70s trucks and Jeeps I use to wheel around. 

 

I still do any and all repairs on my rides. Try replacing an intake on a modern truck. What use to be a 2 hour job now takes 10 hours from all the dang electronic crap ya gotta deal with. I did that last winter on my other Ford.  It took me an entire Saturday just to replace one injector on my super duty. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bassfisher444]

On 1/24/2020 at 8:01 PM, Ski213 said:

@bassfisher444 curious why you would avoid the eco boost trucks. If I went the F150 route I’m primarily looking at the 5.0 but here there seem to be a lot more of the eco boost trucks. I have some concern with the replacement costs for the turbos but was wondering why you mentioned avoiding them. 

They are great for perfomace but they aren't good for long term reliability. If you are the kind of person who gets rid of their vehicle when it gets over 100K then an ecoboost is probably fine, but if you want to buy used and keep the truck for another  80-100K, sooner or later your going to have a huge repair bill. Even basic maintinace like changing the oil is a pain to do on an Ecoboost. The V8 is far more simple, easier to work on, lasts longer and sounds better.

[SuperDuty]

37 minutes ago, bassfisher444 said:

They are great for perfomace but they aren't good for long term reliability. If you are the kind of person who gets rid of their vehicle when it gets over 100K then an ecoboost is probably fine, but if you want to buy used and keep the truck for another  80-100K, sooner or later your going to have a huge repair bill. Even basic maintinace like changing the oil is a pain to do on an Ecoboost. The V8 is far more simple, easier to work on, lasts longer and sounds better.

I suppose you've heard that somewhere and just repeating it? Either way, that simply just isn't true and there is factual data out there that disproves this statement. Sure, every component on a truck will need replacement "eventually" but to say it won't last to 180-200k miles is pure hogwash.

 

And there are lots of components that can go out on any 200k mile truck that would be as costly as a turbo such as a tranny, differential, head gasket, and the list goes on and on. 

 

the oil change is a little more difficult but it's not a big deal. It takes me two hours to change the oil on my wife's 2019 4runner due to having to remove all the skid plates to reach the filter. That certainly didn't intimidate me from buying her what she wanted. 

 

The EcoBoost has way more power than the v8, gets much better gas mileage, and tows a great deal better. The EcoBoost can and will last as long as the V8 with proper maintenance. Our fleet trucks aren't swapped out until they reach 200k.

 

Sound is subjective as my 74 year old dad doesn't want to hear his trucks exhaust nor does my wife. Many people feel that way. 

 

 

[moguy1973]

I have a 2.7l ecoboost F150 and it doesn’t even know my 175 tracker is behind it. Handles great and gas mileage only goes down about 3MPG when towing it.  I know my tracker is a lot lighter than the OPs boat but bumping up to the 3.5l ecoboost would take care if that.  The 3.5l are great towing engines.  Don’t let the small displacement with turbos scare you away. 

1 hour ago, bassfisher444 said:

They are great for perfomace but they aren't good for long term reliability. If you are the kind of person who gets rid of their vehicle when it gets over 100K then an ecoboost is probably fine, but if you want to buy used and keep the truck for another  80-100K, sooner or later your going to have a huge repair bill. Even basic maintinace like changing the oil is a pain to do on an Ecoboost. The V8 is far more simple, easier to work on, lasts longer and sounds better.

I know the 3.5L ecoboost oil changes are a little more involved but my 2.7L ecoboost is the easiest oil change I’ve even done on a vehicle. If I didn’t have to take off a skid plate that covers the oil pan it would take me about 20 minutes to change the oil. The oil filter is a canister style filter and it’s on the top of the engine and I don’t even need a tool to remove the oil plug since it’s a composite pan and the plug is made of plastic.  It’s also the cleanest oil change I’ve ever done. No messy oil going everywhere when I take the filter out. 

[bassfisher444]

My uncle has an ecoboost with less than 80K on it and has had nothing but problems with it, he already had to have the engine replaced once and it wasn't under warranty. A couple other guys I know have had the ecoboost and both got rid of them because they were at the dealer all the time for repairs, my dad testdrove a brand new one and it broke down on him and had to be towed back to the dealer. I know some people have good luck with them but based on the ones I have worked on and experiences from people I know I wouldn't have one. The V8s seem to have far less problems.

[SuperDuty]

1 minute ago, bassfisher444 said:

My uncle has an ecoboost with less than 80K on it and has had nothing but problems with it, he already had to have the engine replaced once and it wasn't under warranty. A couple other guys I know have had the ecoboost and both got rid of them because they were at the dealer all the time for repairs, my dad testdrove a brand new one and it broke down on him and had to be towed back to the dealer. I know some people have good luck with them but based on the ones I have worked on and experiences from people I know I wouldn't have one. The V8s seem to have far less problems.

Lol well of course!

[bassfisher444]

19 hours ago, Fishing Rhino said:

Hmmmm. You can have all the cars of the bygone era.  If you had a car or truck that hit 100,000 miles it was an exceptional vehicle.  They all started burning oil by the time they had 30,000 miles on them.  Replace points, condenser, and rotors at ten thousand miles and spark plugs as well.

What era are you talking about? I have a Jeep 4.0 ( an engine design that dates back to the 60s) with almost 250,000 miles on it that still has excellent compression and doesn't use any oil between 5K oil change intervals, same goes for my 7.3 Powerstroke with 170,000 on it. As a mechanic I have seen several Jeep 4.0, Ford 300 I6, 302, 351 and 460 V8s, Dodge 318, 360, and GM 305, 350, and 454 engines with 200K or more that still have good compression and don't burn any oil, all of those engines were designed in the 60s-70s and used all the way up to the late 90s or early 2000s. Its the newer engines that have issues with excessive oil consumption, Ford, Chrysler and GM have all had quite a few recalls in the past 10 years because of excessive oil consumption in their engines. 

19 hours ago, Fishing Rhino said:

 

 

 

[DanielG]

You could work on older vehicles, they were simpler but at 100k in mileage you had to think about a new one because by about 130-140k it would need a lot of work and/or the frame would be ready to break in half from rust (in the rust belt anyway).

 

Today, you don't often have any issues till 100k or later, then you tweak a few things for yes some $$. And get ready for the second 100k instead of having to sell it to the junker guy for $400.

 

I've had cars since 1970 and I've been able to keep them longer with less trouble in the last few than all the others combined..... except that 2003 silverado.... So many issues. I hated that vehicle. Payed for it twice with repairs.

 

Today I can't work on them much, but I don't have to like in the older ones.

[slonezp]

3 hours ago, bassfisher444 said:

My uncle has an ecoboost with less than 80K on it and has had nothing but problems with it, he already had to have the engine replaced once and it wasn't under warranty. A couple other guys I know have had the ecoboost and both got rid of them because they were at the dealer all the time for repairs, my dad testdrove a brand new one and it broke down on him and had to be towed back to the dealer. I know some people have good luck with them but based on the ones I have worked on and experiences from people I know I wouldn't have one. The V8s seem to have far less problems.

There is no replacement for displacement. Also, how many 1/2 ton trucks are sold as daily drivers and not work trucks? Quite a few. The disadvantage of a 1/2 ton truck is the extra mileage and EPA regulations the government puts on them. Maybe they are well deserved because, let's face it, a ton of them are used as grocery getters. IMO an educated buyer will research the purchase. A smaller displacement engine might be a great option for a guy driving limited miles with limited payload. I think if you are towing weekly or more often, a V8 is the ticket.

[SuperDuty]

28 minutes ago, slonezp said:

There is no replacement for displacement. Also, how many 1/2 ton trucks are sold as daily drivers and not work trucks? Quite a few. The disadvantage of a 1/2 ton truck is the extra mileage and EPA regulations the government puts on them. Maybe they are well deserved because, let's face it, a ton of them are used as grocery getters. IMO an educated buyer will research the purchase. A smaller displacement engine might be a great option for a guy driving limited miles with limited payload. I think if you are towing weekly or more often, a V8 is the ticket.

That's an old saying and doesn't hold true anymore. The replacement for displacement is actually technology and turbos are one of them. The EcoBoost pulls much better than their V8 counterpart. That's a fact. 

[bassfisher444]

9 minutes ago, SuperDuty said:

That's an old saying and doesn't hold true anymore. The replacement for displacement is actually technology and turbos are one of them. The EcoBoost pulls much better than their V8 counterpart. That's a fact. 

That's only because the Ecoboost has turbos, a twin turbo 5.0 V8 will stomp a V6 Ecoboost, and yes they do sell twin turbo kits for the 5.0.  

[slonezp]

19 minutes ago, SuperDuty said:

That's an old saying and doesn't hold true anymore. The replacement for displacement is actually technology and turbos are one of them. The EcoBoost pulls much better than their V8 counterpart. That's a fact. 

I'm not knocking the Ecoboost as an everyday driver. Will it put up with everyday payloads and towing as well as a V8, I doubt it. No different than a gas V8 not standing the test of time of high mileage and high payloads like a diesel. There is a time and a place for all 3 engines.

Regardless of anything, they all require maintenance. A naturally aspirated V8 will be less expensive to operate in the long run than the Ecoboost, and the diesel.

[SuperDuty]

31 minutes ago, bassfisher444 said:

That's only because the Ecoboost has turbos, a twin turbo 5.0 V8 will stomp a V6 Ecoboost, and yes they do sell twin turbo kits for the 5.0.  

This conversation isn't about modifying trucks, it's about factory produced trucks. 

22 minutes ago, slonezp said:

I'm not knocking the Ecoboost as an everyday driver. Will it put up with everyday payloads and towing as well as a V8, I doubt it. No different than a gas V8 not standing the test of time of high mileage and high payloads like a diesel. There is a time and a place for all 3 engines.

Regardless of anything, they all require maintenance. A naturally aspirated V8 will be less expensive to operate in the long run than the Ecoboost, and the diesel.

I disagree. But that's ok, we can disagree with each other. 

 

Been an interesting conversation guys but I've got no more input. 

[Way2slow]

You have to realize one thing about the internet.  Take everything with a grain of salt.  There is not a product made that is 100% reliable.  If a manufacture can keep his failure rate to 5%, he is jumping with joy and most are happy with 10% and some are even greater than 20%. 

Now those high percentage of customers that are happy with their product don't get on the internet and post how great it is and how much they love it.  However, that small percentage that does have a problem will get on here in a heartbeat and bash the crap out of it.  Then those that know nothing about the product read about all the problems that few percentage has and they pick up on the bashing.  Making it sound like everyone ever made was junk.

That's why I always say, "only believe half of what you see, and not a dang thing of what you hear".

[bassfisher444]

24 minutes ago, SuperDuty said:

This conversation isn't about modifying trucks, it's about factory produced trucks.  

They do make a F150 with a factory supercharged 5.0 it's rated at 750 HP.  Regardless what was said before about there is no replacement for displacement still holds true, a 3.5 liter Ecoboost making 15 psi of boost basically makes it equivalent to a 7 liter naturally aspirated engine.

[slonezp]

10 minutes ago, Way2slow said:

You have to realize one thing about the internet.  Take everything with a grain of salt.  There is not a product made that is 100% reliable.  If a manufacture can keep his failure rate to 5%, he is jumping with joy and most are happy with 10% and some are even greater than 20%. 

Now those high percentage of customers that are happy with their product don't get on the internet and post how great it is and how much they love it.  However, that small percentage that does have a problem will get on here in a heartbeat and bash the crap out of it.  Then those that know nothing about the product read about all the problems that few percentage has and they pick up on the bashing.  Making it sound like everyone ever made was junk.

That's why I always say, "only believe half of what you see, and not a dang thing of what you hear".

I was sold on the Toyota Kool-Aid when I bought my Tundra in December of 2007. After owning Dodge and Ford trucks and driving GM trucks for work, I figured Toyota had their **** together after such a long successful run with their mid sized pick up. I was wrong. The Toyota had as many or more issues as the Dodge I traded in for it, although most were minor compared to the Dodge. I traded the Toyota in after 10 years with 200k miles on it and I'd bet the engine would get another 200k out of it. Unfortunately, I put 6 grand into it the last 2 years of ownership just to keep it on the road. That doesn't include the electrical gremlins and the bed rusted thru. 

You can't get a new (Big 3) 1/2 ton for under $30K nowadays and that would limit you to to a single cab work truck. Add 4 doors onto that and you're at $35k for a basic truck with zero upgrades. I could get a real nice car for $35k