BPT / MLF Format Rules Needs To Change !!

[Hawkeye21]

I wonder if people were upset or complained about tourneys changing from larger limits of fish.  I know they use to have 10 fish limits a long time ago.

[OCdockskipper]

1 hour ago, J Francho said:

Isn't that why anyone pursues a new job?

It is different if an employee/customer initiates the process.  There is nothing unethical about changing jobs or vendors because it benefits you.

 

From the ownership perspective, if a company chooses to attempt to recruit existing talent associated with a competitor (as opposed to developing their own talent), that is defined as poaching.

[TnRiver46]

46 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I wonder if people were upset or complained about tourneys changing from larger limits of fish.  I know they use to have 10 fish limits a long time ago.

I would bet that was probably touted as a big win for “conservation” back then 

[ChrisD46]

2 hours ago, RichF said:

I really don't think the majority of the criticisms are fueled by a hatred of MLF/BPT or Boyd Duckett. The think the biggest problem was that there was a misconception about who their target audience was.  I thought it was meant for me. A basshead, obsessed with the sport, and really into tournament fishing.  That doesn't seem to be the case. And to be honest, it doesn't even seem like the more casual anglers are the prime either.  Anglers like us, watch fishing shows/events/coverage/etc. to learn (maybe to kill some time until fishing season opens)...but mostly to learn.  And as you progress in the sport and become a more skilled angler, you want to learn how to catch the larger than average bass (the majority of anglers do anyway, IMO).  The MLF/BPT format and broadcasts don't really provide that.  The original MLF events played out (play out) largely the same.  No practice on unfamiliar lakes = bank beating.  To me, there's nothing to learn there.  The "best" in the world aren't teaching me anything I don't already know.  The same thing is happening with the BPT broadcasts.  Product placement/endorsements, lame jokes, and hooksets on small bass is the general makeup of the show.  Again, nothing to learn. That's where a lot of the criticism is coming from, I think.  The people that are actually into the sport aren't getting what they used to get out of the biggest names in the game.  I think all the criticism has been good, though.  We're already seeing some things change with the tour that should make it more appealing.  I'm anxious to see how 2020 goes.  

 

 

Excellent point right here btw.

 

 

 

Very well stated Richf !! ... You wrote what I feel about the subject much better than I did . I'm a "bass head" as well  and desire more useful content , programming , etc. out of MLF / BPT . I as well  do not have a clue then as to who the MLF / BPT target audience is supposed to be for the reasons you stated ?

[J Francho]

2 hours ago, OCdockskipper said:

From the ownership perspective, if a company chooses to attempt to recruit existing talent associated with a competitor (as opposed to developing their own talent), that is defined as poaching.

So, pretty much everyone poaches.  Got it.  Thanks.

[Hawkeye21]

4 hours ago, OCdockskipper said:

It is different if an employee/customer initiates the process.  There is nothing unethical about changing jobs or vendors because it benefits you.

 

From the ownership perspective, if a company chooses to attempt to recruit existing talent associated with a competitor (as opposed to developing their own talent), that is defined as poaching.

Sounds like typical business to me.  Just a couple months ago there was a new business that tried to get one of our mechanics.  Our employee said he would stay if we could match it.

[J Francho]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Our employee said he would stay if we could match it.

I was once told by my manager that this was the ONLY way to get a raise.  I work for another company now.  They poached me I guess, since they offered better pay, benefits, a path to grow and move up, a nicer office, and other perks.

[jbsoonerfan]

4 minutes ago, J Francho said:

I was once told by my manager that this was the ONLY way to get a raise.  I work for another company now.  They poached me I guess, since they offered better pay, benefits, a path to grow and move up, a nicer office, and other perks.

Did you leave the 5 monster fish limit company to go to a dink fest? If that's the case then there are many here who think you made a bad move......lol 

[OCdockskipper]

43 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Sounds like typical business to me...

It is & it isn't, depends on the situation.  If MLF Bowling Center is in need of a head pinsetter mechanic and they make an offer to the current one at BASS Lanes down the street in an attempt to hire him, then that is generally accepted as typical business.  The head pinsetter mechanic has skills that are in demand and he can get paid more because of that.

 

However, if MLF Bowling Center is getting ready to open their doors and they extend offers to every mechanic, desk person and custodian that works over at BASS Lanes, then that is not typical.  In that situation, MLF Bowl is looking to drive BASS Lanes out of business, not by offering a better product, but by hiring away all of the "talent" at the same time.  That is a bit of a scumbag move; 100% legal but not the most ethical way to run a company.  Ironically, many companies who try to start up or expand in this manner often fail shortly thereafter because they tried to shortcut the normal growth process.  The real negative when they go belly up is that they leave the employees who switched over in a lurch through no real fault of their own.

 

As I mentioned to JFrancho, the business meaning of "poached" is different than the hunting/fishing use of the word and for those of us here on this forum, it can be difficult to shake the negative connotation.  Not unlike the term "recruit", which has different meanings depending on the environment it is used (i.e., recruiting a blue chip athlete for your college is very different than recruiting a jihadist for your cause).

[Rpratt]

Here is my basic question about "poaching".

 

Again if I sound blunt my apologies in advance.

 

But does anybody really believe that all those anglers were poached? I don't buy that. You can't tell me KVD and all the anglers that have been on Tour all those years did not work in sync to create the BPT.

 

IMHO,  you cannot single out Duckett, or Klein for that matter. I believe it was very much a joint concerted effort. So if you are gonna blame one, you would have to blame them all. 

[OCdockskipper]

Remember that poaching is nothing more than a company making an offer to an employee/independent contractor of a competitor.  BPT invited anglers, they did not wait to see what anglers knocked on their door, hence their proactive stance was by definition poaching

 

Team9Nine can correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have read, Duckett was the driving force in creating BPT.  He & Klein created MLF together, but Duckett took the lead (at least in the public eye, maybe not behind the scenes) when they added BPT.

 

You are correct that probably 20 or so anglers like KVD & Ehrler were privy to what Duckett was doing earlier than most everyone else.  The remaining anglers, guys that had never been invited to fish MLF events before, were the targets that were poached by BPT.

 

Some of those anglers like KVD may have created peer pressure by talking up what BPT was going to offer, but they couldn't have done that if Duckett hadn't given the green light for them to do it.  I can't fault anglers being evangelical about their new tour, there is nothing wrong with that.  Duckett however had a choice of how to build out his BPT roster and he chose to poach.

[12poundbass]

46 minutes ago, OCdockskipper said:

Duckett however had a choice of how to build out his BPT roster and he chose to poach.

So if you were to start a new business and had access to proven professionals that will undoubtedly help your business you wouldn’t contact them or make them an offer? You would go with fresh green employees/contractors with little to no experience? ?

[OCdockskipper]

2 hours ago, 12poundbass said:

So if you were to start a new business and had access to proven professionals that will undoubtedly help your business you wouldn’t contact them or make them an offer? You would go with fresh green employees/contractors with little to no experience? ?

I never said or intimated that.  I was just showing how the definition of poaching in business is different than the way most of us on this forum have heard it used regarding wildlife.  Poaching in business isn't necessarily a negative, it depends on how and why it is done.

 

When I started my company 23 years ago, I hired two experienced individuals, each from a different competitors, that I contacted & made offers to.  The remaining hires all answered want ads, they contacted us and ranged from experienced to green.  So by definition, I poached 2 employees while the rest of the employees reached out to us.  I'll let you be the judge of whether that was unethical or not.

 

Contrast that with starting a business and trying to fill 90% of the roster from a single competitor, who you also happen to be working for at the same time you are starting your business.  That isn't poaching done to help start your business, that is poaching done in an attempt to quash the competitor by taking their personnel.  Thing is, not only is that highly unethical, it rarely works in the long run because you have tried to build a business via shortcut.  You basically have signaled to each & every employee that if they want to start a company, all they need to do is leave and hire away 90% of your staff.  Setting that precedent typically comes back to bite you.

 

In most peoples hearts, they don't want to work for someone they don't respect.  You may do it for a period of time because the money makes you rationalize putting up with it, but if the owner of a company is a snake, you are always wondering if he is going to bite you next.

[J Francho]

This affects you personally, how?  You seem overly invested.  Maybe time to take a step back.

[BassNJake]

22 hours ago, RichF said:

I really don't think the majority of the criticisms are fueled by a hatred of MLF/BPT or Boyd Duckett. The think the biggest problem was that there was a misconception about who their target audience was.  I thought it was meant for me. A basshead, obsessed with the sport, and really into tournament fishing.  That doesn't seem to be the case. And to be honest, it doesn't even seem like the more casual anglers are the prime either.  Anglers like us, watch fishing shows/events/coverage/etc. to learn (maybe to kill some time until fishing season opens)...but mostly to learn.  And as you progress in the sport and become a more skilled angler, you want to learn how to catch the larger than average bass (the majority of anglers do anyway, IMO).  The MLF/BPT format and broadcasts don't really provide that.  The original MLF events played out (play out) largely the same.  No practice on unfamiliar lakes = bank beating.  To me, there's nothing to learn there.  The "best" in the world aren't teaching me anything I don't already know.  The same thing is happening with the BPT broadcasts.  Product placement/endorsements, lame jokes, and hooksets on small bass is the general makeup of the show.  Again, nothing to learn. That's where a lot of the criticism is coming from, I think.  The people that are actually into the sport aren't getting what they used to get out of the biggest names in the game.  I think all the criticism has been good, though.  We're already seeing some things change with the tour that should make it more appealing.  I'm anxious to see how 2020 goes.  

 

Well said @RichF

 

[scaleface]

22 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I wonder if people were upset or complained about tourneys changing from larger limits of fish.  I know they use to have 10 fish limits a long time ago.

Legal limits were reduced.Bass tourneys could not allow anglers to have more fish in the live-well that were legally allowed . The first year I club fished  the state of Missouri had a ten fish limit and that is what we went by . The next year the limit changed to six and so did we . I dont recall any negativity being said . We embraced it .  The five fish limit is one under legal limits .If you have six fish in the live-well and one in your hand  that is seven fish , one over the legal limit . Five fish keeps them out of legal trouble .

[J Francho]

In NY, you can have 6 in the boat, if you are culling.  Otherwise, it's 5 in possession.

[Hawkeye21]

16 hours ago, OCdockskipper said:

It is & it isn't, depends on the situation.  If MLF Bowling Center is in need of a head pinsetter mechanic and they make an offer to the current one at BASS Lanes down the street in an attempt to hire him, then that is generally accepted as typical business.  The head pinsetter mechanic has skills that are in demand and he can get paid more because of that.

 

However, if MLF Bowling Center is getting ready to open their doors and they extend offers to every mechanic, desk person and custodian that works over at BASS Lanes, then that is not typical.  In that situation, MLF Bowl is looking to drive BASS Lanes out of business, not by offering a better product, but by hiring away all of the "talent" at the same time.  That is a bit of a scumbag move; 100% legal but not the most ethical way to run a company.  Ironically, many companies who try to start up or expand in this manner often fail shortly thereafter because they tried to shortcut the normal growth process.  The real negative when they go belly up is that they leave the employees who switched over in a lurch through no real fault of their own.

 

As I mentioned to JFrancho, the business meaning of "poached" is different than the hunting/fishing use of the word and for those of us here on this forum, it can be difficult to shake the negative connotation.  Not unlike the term "recruit", which has different meanings depending on the environment it is used (i.e., recruiting a blue chip athlete for your college is very different than recruiting a jihadist for your cause).

I don't see that as being an accurate comparison since there are not numerous professional fishing leagues that are on the same level as BASS and MLF.  MLF sent out invites to the top guys at BASS and FLW.  A business is going to try and get the top people from the best businesses, not just any random people.  The situation with BASS and MLF is a little different since there are so many people in just a couple organizations. 

 

Might be more comparable if there were a hundred pro leagues that were all similar quality but MLF decided to only go after anglers from one league.

16 hours ago, Rpratt said:

Here is my basic question about "poaching".

 

Again if I sound blunt my apologies in advance.

 

But does anybody really believe that all those anglers were poached? I don't buy that. You can't tell me KVD and all the anglers that have been on Tour all those years did not work in sync to create the BPT.

 

IMHO,  you cannot single out Duckett, or Klein for that matter. I believe it was very much a joint concerted effort. So if you are gonna blame one, you would have to blame them all. 

I'm pretty sure KVD is one of the owners.  I think there are 15 anglers that are part owners of MLF.

[jbsoonerfan]

19 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

 MLF sent out invites to the top guys at BASS and FLW. 

Except Scott Martin LOL

[OCdockskipper]

2 hours ago, J Francho said:

This affects you personally, how?  You seem overly invested.  Maybe time to take a step back.

Is this directed at me?  If so, you are seriously misreading what I am writing.

 

I'm just having a conversation and giving my opinion/perspective on it.  I thought that is what forums were for.  Not invested in it other than being a bass fisherman.  If MLF becomes top dog or goes belly up, it won't affect my life.

 

 

[ChrisD46]

On 1/23/2020 at 9:54 AM, jbsoonerfan said:

Except Scott Martin LOL

Interesting guy (Scott)  - he can come across as a knowledgeable , decent guy you wouldn't mind fishing with ; other times he comes across as being a bit too full of himself .

[dtbrake]

I sure hope they dont. There's finally an interesting tournament trail to watch. BASS is boring and not thrilling at all. And FLW never got any love. I do not like the 5 bass formats. I enjoy watching fish get caught. At most I'd say raise the weight to 2lbs. Besides that everything is perfect. Sure gonna miss watching swindle fish sad to see him go.

On 1/23/2020 at 8:54 AM, jbsoonerfan said:

Except Scott Martin LOL

No loss there

[badaxed]

On 1/9/2020 at 2:46 PM, BassNJake said:

I'll toss this in here too.

 

As for the grassroots-level events, Duckett said some technological advancements are in the works that will allow weekend anglers to compete in MLF-style tournaments without the need for an official in every boat.

"There's a project that we're actively pursuing that will create the security so there's no funny business and nobody will be able to pull any punches, so to speak, and we'll offer that to everybody at every level,” he said. “I can't talk a lot about that technology because we still have another competitor in the space (B.A.S.S.), but we do have a plan so that everybody can fish under the MLF format and I think a lot of people are going to be excited to hear about it when it's available.

This would be awesome. no longer dragging bass 60 miles in a live well exposing them to extreme stress in hot weather and more importantly showing the public how bass fishermen care about the resource. i have personally seen many club tournaments dumping dead and dying bass at boat ramps back into the water while the public looked on with disgust. this is a step forward for tournament fishing.

[mheichelbech]

On 1/22/2020 at 1:15 PM, ChrisD46 said:

Very well stated Richf !! ... You wrote what I feel about the subject much better than I did . I'm a "bass head" as well  and desire more useful content , programming , etc. out of MLF / BPT . I as well  do not have a clue then as to who the MLF / BPT target audience is supposed to be for the reasons you stated ?

Couldn’t agree more with this.  Unfortunately I have seldom seen a fishing tournament on tv where I learned much.  Same problem with deer hunting shows.  They are more about promoting the “actor” and their products.  Fortunately You Tube has a lot of content now.

[ChrisD46]

*If I were sponsors of MLF (as well as MLF management ) I would demand anglers give a 30 second 
plug" as to what they are using with a quick camera close up . The program will not air until after the event is over any way  , so no harm done to the anglers position or fear of other anglers knowing (unless some "secret" technique / lure they would rather not show) . *The fishing equipment biz is a multi million  dollar industry and MLF + their sponsors are missing out ! Heck , even BPS Elite shows have Mark Zona / Davey Hite doing a segment " Keys to the Bite" , "Winning Ways" etc. which I enjoy watching and learn from . *Although he pitches his own line or close friend's products - I like the TV shows Timmy Horton puts on as I learn a lot from watching his techniques .