Consistentcy and the 5 fish format

[Jim- Indiana]

To change up discussion at bit,  each and every "Professional" Bass Fisherman that we know these days, have all found  a certain degree of consistency in fishing the 5 fish format. Although we do not have much data on the "every fish counts" format, there are certain aspects that make me wonder if the same will hold true. My wondering starts, when I look at the BPT standings for the past year. With "time" being at such a premium in the MLF format, there is less time for the anglers to make decisions that would play a big role in being consistent..... but that is my hunch .... what do you all think? Do you think both formats, offer equal chances of consistency? .... and why, or why not!

[jbsoonerfan]

Consistent, how? Nothing saying a guy can't go to a BPT event and try to catch 20 four lbers vs 80 one pounders. I would think consistent would be catching fish all day, not just catching 7 in a day and getting lucky that 5 of them were the biggest 5. There is a reason they still weigh them instead of count them. They still use pounds and ounces instead of tally marks.

[Jim- Indiana]

1 hour ago, jbsoonerfan said:

Consistent, how? Nothing saying a guy can't go to a BPT event and try to catch 20 four lbers vs 80 one pounders. I would think consistent would be catching fish all day, not just catching 7 in a day and getting lucky that 5 of them were the biggest 5. There is a reason they still weigh them instead of count them. They still use pounds and ounces instead of tally marks.

I guess I should have been clearer. I meant being consistent (decent finish)  tournament after tournament throughout the year .... what the AOY standings would reflect.

[Sam]

You can go for numbers and load the boat or go for size and hope for five.

 

The time limit makes you think about what you need to do and keeps the pressure on everyone to make as many casts as possible.

 

Being consistent in the final standings of individual bass tournaments is an art that only a few can accomplish. 

 

I don't think any one angler would finish in the top ten for every tournament they fish. Some days you win and some days the bass wins.  That's bass fishing.

[RichF]

I think it's definitely more difficult to be consistent with the "every fish counts" format.  Good finishes rely heavily on an angler finding a giant school of bass which I find is often luck.  Look at Zach Birge and Edwin in the Redcrest.  Both found megaschools and smoked everyone.  Had it been the traditional format, they both would've weighed 9lb bags.  The same thing happened at Table Rock with Cliff Pace (pretty sure it was Pace) and I'm sure there are a bunch more examples of this in MFL/BPT competition.  

 

[Jim- Indiana]

1 hour ago, RichF said:

I think it's definitely more difficult to be consistent with the "every fish counts" format.  Good finishes rely heavily on an angler finding a giant school of bass which I find is often luck.  Look at Zach Birge and Edwin in the Redcrest.  Both found megaschools and smoked everyone.  Had it been the traditional format, they both would've weighed 9lb bags.  The same thing happened at Table Rock with Cliff Pace (pretty sure it was Pace) and I'm sure there are a bunch more examples of this in MFL/BPT competition.  

 

To be fair ...Zach, Edwin, and Cliff would have employed a different strategy, had they been fishing for 5 fish. The "luck" factor, in finding a "mega" school on a consistent basis is higher when every fish counts .... and no time to hunt for it, if you start the wrong place.

[scaleface]

From someone who has a fifteen inch length limit to deal with , I feel it is much more difficult to catch a limit of keepers than a couple dozen non-keepers . 

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

They both have their own consistencies. One consistently catch the heaviest 5 fish. The other consistently catch the heaviest total weight for the day.

This just seems like another rant against mlf.

[jbsoonerfan]

2 hours ago, QUAKEnSHAKE said:

They both have their own consistencies. One consistently catch the heaviest 5 fish. The other consistently catch the heaviest total weight for the day.

This just seems like another rant against mlf.

Couldn't be.

[Jim- Indiana]

3 hours ago, QUAKEnSHAKE said:

They both have their own consistencies. One consistently catch the heaviest 5 fish. The other consistently catch the heaviest total weight for the day.

This just seems like another rant against mlf.

In my topic, I was using "consistent" in relation to angler performance, not as things similar between the 2 formats. It is a question that could and should be asked, by participants and organizers of either league. To insert "rant" into a response to the question, you really need to be looking for it.

    Since inception .... anglers have been advocating  for rule changes, and I don't think any of them were to make it tougher for them to be successful. One of the comments that was recently proposed, was to eliminate the zeroing of weights between rounds....that fits the type of response I was looking for.

[jbsoonerfan]

56 minutes ago, Jim- Indiana said:

In my topic, I was using "consistent" in relation to angler performance, not as things similar between the 2 formats. It is a question that could and should be asked, by participants and organizers of either league. To insert "rant" into a response to the question, you really need to be looking for it.

    Since inception .... anglers have been advocating  for rule changes, and I don't think any of them were to make it tougher for them to be successful. One of the comments that was recently proposed, was to eliminate the zeroing of weights between rounds....that fits the type of response I was looking for.

Of your 22 posts, 19 of them are related to MLF/BPT so it may seem as though this topic is yet another jab/rant/whatever at them. You use words and phrases that make it seem like you are attempting to ask questions or engage in conversations about the "tournament" format as you often refer to it. When the NBA implemented the 3 point line I would assume that people didn't like it because it wasn't the way it had always been. Change isn't for everyone, but they convinced the best anglers in the world to join them so they must have been on to something. Before anyone starts with the "Well Luke So and So said they are in trouble and BP and G Man left" yeah I know, but 2 of the best anglers in the world replaced them. However, this is about consistency and the term consistent doesn't change whether it's making 10 footers or 3 pointers, if you are only worried about the final outcome. Like I said before, they are still taking weights, not counting fish. 

 

Here are some facts:

 

Bradley Roy

Ott DeFoe

Brent Chapman

Aaron Martens

Jacob Powroznik

Brandon Palaniuk

Jacob Wheeler

Mark Daniels Jr

Todd Faircloth

Casey Ashley

Ike

Andy Montgomery

 

All these anglers finished in the top 1/4 of the AOY standings in BASS in 2018 and the top 1/3 of the standings in the AOY in 2019 in BPT. Not sure if you are looking for statistics like this or just trying to stir the pot. I wasn't going to waste my time going back any further since there is only one season of BPT to compare to.

 

I could care less how they decide to weigh them, count them, or whatever else they decide to do. As with any other sport there is, the cream will always rise to the top.

[RichF]

1 hour ago, jbsoonerfan said:

Of your 22 posts, 19 of them are related to MLF/BPT so it may seem as though this topic is yet another jab/rant/whatever at them. You use words and phrases that make it seem like you are attempting to ask questions or engage in conversations about the "tournament" format as you often refer to it. When the NBA implemented the 3 point line I would assume that people didn't like it because it wasn't the way it had always been. Change isn't for everyone, but they convinced the best anglers in the world to join them so they must have been on to something. Before anyone starts with the "Well Luke So and So said they are in trouble and BP and G Man left" yeah I know, but 2 of the best anglers in the world replaced them. However, this is about consistency and the term consistent doesn't change whether it's making 10 footers or 3 pointers, if you are only worried about the final outcome. Like I said before, they are still taking weights, not counting fish. 

 

Here are some facts:

 

Bradley Roy

Ott DeFoe

Brent Chapman

Aaron Martens

Jacob Powroznik

Brandon Palaniuk

Jacob Wheeler

Mark Daniels Jr

Todd Faircloth

Casey Ashley

Ike

Andy Montgomery

 

All these anglers finished in the top 1/4 of the AOY standings in BASS in 2018 and the top 1/3 of the standings in the AOY in 2019 in BPT. Not sure if you are looking for statistics like this or just trying to stir the pot. I wasn't going to waste my time going back any further since there is only one season of BPT to compare to.

 

I could care less how they decide to weigh them, count them, or whatever else they decide to do. As with any other sport there is, the cream will always rise to the top.

Do we need to count how many of your posts are condescending and arrogant towards others' questions or responses? Nothing about the op sounded like anything other than a question about angler consistency between tournament formats. 

[jbsoonerfan]

1 minute ago, RichF said:

Do we need to count how many of your posts are condescending and arrogant towards others' questions or responses? Nothing about the op sounded like anything other than a question about angler consistency between tournament formats. 

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be that way. I was actually trying to figure out what exactly he meant by consistent. Catching fish in general, catching 5 big fish, catching 200 fish, catching 3 big fish and 100 one lbers......etc.

 

I was trying to find out kind of information the OP wanted and even provided some statistics to show some "consistency" between the two formats. 

 

BTW, me pointing out where 95% of his posts are directed isn't condescending or arrogant, just an observation.

[Hawkeye21]

This is what I really love about the MLF format.  It's not just about catching fish, it's about strategy.  It's not that the 5 fish tourneys don't involve strategy too, it's that MLF requires a completely different kind of strategy and I really enjoy that.

 

Since I fish kayak tourneys I have to go about constructing my strategy completely different from how I would when fishing a boat tourney with a partner.  The game planning and figuring out a strategy are all part of the enjoyment of fishing for me.  It's why I like watching the both the Elite series and MLF formats.  I learn a lot from both.

 

I think there are way too many people that are too stubborn and don't like change.

[Tennessee Boy]

There is a lot of luck in fishing so consistency is difficult compared to other sports.  After the first year I see a lot of consistency at the top and even more at the bottom.  Some of the guys that I consider to be hardcore offshore structure fishermen seem to be struggling which is not surprising. 

[Jim- Indiana]

25 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

There is a lot of luck in fishing so consistency is difficult compared to other sports.  After the first year I see a lot of consistency at the top and even more at the bottom.  Some of the guys that I consider to be hardcore offshore structure fishermen seem to be struggling which is not surprising. 

Hi ..I wasn't asking to compare it to other sports, but between the two major formats. I agree, and most do, that there is a luck factor in fishing. The more variables that are controlled, the luck factor gets smaller. Some feel that zeroing the weights between rounds in the BPT, make it harder to be consistent. My feelings were, that the "time" crunch makes it tougher to employ certain strategies.  I know that a few of the BPT anglers are advocating for only a ncertain amount of fish to be included in the final tally. 15, 20 etc. . That would help eliminate some of the "time" crunch, and likely help the offshore crowd. Lots say it doesn't make any difference, because everyone within each league, are fishing by the same rules .... I was looking more at, if I were to advise my son where to fish to pursue a career, and tell him to fish "xy" league because of it being easier to be consistent Thanks for your input!

[Tennessee Boy]

1 hour ago, Jim- Indiana said:

My feelings were, that the "time" crunch makes it tougher to employ certain strategies. 

I agree and those strategies are what I find the most interesting but I don’t know if they make for good TV.  I think the BPT is focused on the fans experience more than the angler’s experience.  Just about all of us would prefer to catch one five pound fish over catching five one pound fish.  I guess most people would rather watch someone else catch five fish than to watch them catch one big one.  

[WRB]

The easiest bass to catch are also the highest population in any lake, 12" to 15" LMB.

This group includes mature males and young adult female bass. The opposite is true of the lowest population of bass in any lake are the biggest LMB 25" to 29" that are difficult to catch. The bass in the middle 16" to 24" make up what 5 bass limit tournament anglers target because the population density in most lakes is good.

What group to target depends on the ability to locate active bass during the time on the water.

In general a 5 bass limit weighing 15 lbs made up with 3 lb or 18" bass on average gets a check in most tournaments and that is the pro goal.

If the format is total weight of the days catch with unlimited number of bass caught targeting the highest population density of 12" to 15" bass that weigh on average 2 lbs, 10 bass wiegh 20 lbs and gets the angler to the next event.

I would say it takes an equal amount of skill for either format.

Very few pro's or recreational bass anglers can consistantly catch 25" to 29" LMB regardless of the amount of time spent on the water, the population is too low on nearly every lake.

Tom

[Logan S]

It's possible to see consistency in either format....But each format favors a different type of angler (in general).  A smaller number of guys will (and have been) consistently successful in both, while most of the others will be consistently successful in one or the other.  

 

Don't forget that the MLF/BPT format of counting every fish is still very new to pretty much every angler on that tour.  Even the original MLF pros that have been doing it for years are new to doing it full time - Prior to 2019 their primary focus was still with 5 bass limits, the MLF thing was sort of a sideshow for them until now.  As long as the MLF/BPT format sticks around long term, I think you'll see more guys adapt to it.

[WRB]

The tournament anglers I have known over the years will always answer the question "how did it go today for you?" with I caught X number of bass today. In other words 5 bass limit anglers count the number of fish they catch, it's important to them. If your pattern or patterns is producing numbers you feel dialed in. A good consistant tournament angler should be able to excel at either format.

I am a trophy bass angler and target the smallest population of bass when fishing alone, rarely with a partner. When fun fishing with tournament pro's or recreation anglers as a partner I have no problem being competitive by catching numbers of bass using presentations to target numbers. 

The only exception I see is bed fishing specialist during the spawn, not every tournament angler is equally skilled at sight fishing bed bass.

Tom

[jbsoonerfan]

24 minutes ago, WRB said:

The tournament anglers I have known over the years will always answer the question "how did it go today for you?" with I caught X number of bass today. In other words 5 bass limit anglers count the number of fish they catch, it's important to them. If your pattern or patterns is producing numbers you feel dialed in. A good consistant tournament angler should be able to excel at either format.

I am a trophy bass angler and target the smallest population of bass when fishing alone, rarely with a partner. When fun fishing with tournament pro's or recreation anglers as a partner I have no problem being competitive by catching numbers of bass using presentations to target numbers. 

The only exception I see is bed fishing specialist during the spawn, not every tournament angler is equally skilled at sight fishing bed bass.

Tom

Excellent point, Tom. Every weigh in I have ever been to you hear the guys say "We caught a bunch, just couldn't get any size." To me, catching 5 of the biggest ones weighed in is more luck than catching a bunch and not getting any size. You can fish a good spot and catch a 3 and two hours later someone may come along and pull a 6 from there. I have been lucky and only caught 5 fish all day and it put me in the money and I have caught 20 + in a day and not even bothered weighing in because I may not have even had 5 fish over the length limit lol.

[Tennessee Boy]

The new Heavy Hitters tournament will add an interesting twist to the BPT next year.  Hopefully we’ll get to see some guys targeting bigger fish now.

[J Francho]

These aren't the only two formats out there for competitive fishing.  I'm including any level.  Time and time again, it's a few of the same few that are always at the top, whether it be BPT, BASS, FLW, KBF, or even local team format opens.  You always see the same names at the top.  This tells me that the better anglers are able to adapt and conform to the format, and be successful.  It's up to the organizers to decide what they're selling, and who's buying, and see what shakes out.  You can watch a much faster tournament evolution play out if you follow kayak fishing tournaments for the past decade.  BASS/BPT/FLW are too big to make sweeping changes.  Small adjustments, and see what happens.  Bottom line, you don't see bass nailed to a "leader board" anymore, and that's a good thing.

[Jim- Indiana]

49 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

The new Heavy Hitters tournament will add an interesting twist to the BPT next year.  Hopefully we’ll get to see some guys targeting bigger fish now.

I 100% agree, although I am more into the strategies, and hearing it play out in the anglers mind, rather than the fish size. Hearing when and why it is the time to larger fish, and to see what changes are made.

    Sort of off topic, but MLF has been reluctant to make several of the proposed changes, and I can understand their reasoning. For their target audience .... some changes would take away from what they feel they need to project. The heavy hitter should be welcomed on either side. I don't like their "tiebreaker" rule, which will be a larger factor with the heavy hitter employment. The existing rule rewards catching smaller fish, in that whoever catches the most, wins the tiebreaker!

[Tennessee Boy]

If it was up to me,  I would use a points system that would reward bigger fish and have no limit.  I would square the weight of each fish so a 1lb fish would be worth 1 point, a 5lb fish would be worth 25 points.  That would allow the anglers to consider many different strategies to win. 

1   - 9lb fish = 81 points 

9   - 3lb fish = 81 points 

50 - ~1.27lb fish = 81 points 

 

That might be too “mathematical” for some but it’s not up to me anyway.