What makes a good (sensative) rod/blank? What's the difference between $100 rod and $800 rod

[fin]

6 hours ago, WRB said:

There is a good article with Ken Kistler and Gary Loomis that discuses the today's high tech light weight rods.

I guess that's an article on Kistler Rods' site? I found this part interesting:

Quote

Intermediate modulus rods (33 million to 42 million) with high strain rates (700,000 or higher) still offer a lot of sensitivity and responsiveness and are quite durable. The high-modulus, high-strain-rate, extremely light rods are usually a rod manufacturer’s high-end product. These rods are the ultimate in responsiveness and sensitivity, and they cost a lot more than the average fishing rod.

It would be nice if those numbers were shared with the consumer. I think OP is looking for a tangible reason to pay for high-end rods, like that kind of specification that shows the extra cost is worth it.

 

 

[fin]

6 hours ago, clemsondds said:

It's crazy how there's such a variety of rods (eg. $50 up to $1000) but not much info on why one cost way more than another...other that the usual vague terms like sensitive and weight. Thanks again for helping me with this! Any other thoughts? 

I think it's to the industry's benefit to keep things vague. I suspect a lot of the money for the top of the line rods goes more to research & development and marketing more than the actual production cost. I also suspect there's a much higher profit margin, which is why you see such huge discounts when they do go on sale. But I'm just speculating, I don't know. I'm happy with a $25 rod. I'm sure a $400 rod is better, but I've never fished with one, and I think maybe I'm better off not knowing ?

[Columbia Craw]

Seven hundred dollars.

[Tennessee Boy]

Of the rods I use regularly,  the cheapest cost $20 in the 1980s.  The most expensive cost $400 two years ago.  By my estimate,  the $400 rod is $50 better than the $20 rod.

[MickD]

Go back and read my original response to your post.  

[clemsondds]

3 hours ago, MickD said:

Go back and read my original response to your post.  

Thanks for your response and while it was helpful...still looking for what specifically is the main contributing factor to setting the modulus of a rod? amount of carbon fiber?  also what determines strain rate?  I assume multiple factors determine this (eg cf, scrim, resin...) but just trying to get a better grasp on things.  

[Derek1]

4 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Of the rods I use regularly,  the cheapest cost $20 in the 1980s.  The most expensive cost $400 two years ago.  By my estimate,  the $400 rod is $50 better than the $20 rod.

We might be able to find the magic number from this equation. 

[kayaking_kev]

It's the sum of the parts. The blank material, the guides, the weight, the balance, the warranty, the company reputation, the reel seat, and handle type. 

 

It's definitely not just how light and stiff a rod is. I have a Dobyns Xtasy 755c that weighs 5.1 oz, made with top of the line everything that balances great. I have a Shimano SLX 7'5 Heavy that weighs less at 4.9 oz and is even stiffer, but the SLX is no where near as sensitive as the Xtasy.

 

The same with my Dobyns Xtasy 723c that weighs 4.6 and Dobyns Fury 703c that weighs 4.5, both are MH and my Shimano SLX 7'2 MH which is 2 inches longer and stiffer than both weighs less at 4.4 oz.

 

The most noticeable difference is the balance, the SLX has horrible balance compared to the Dobyns rods. And, even though the SLX are lighter, my shoulder will start to hurt after throwing them awhile and I never had that problem with a Dobyns.

 

The SLX only comes with a 1 year warranty, while the Dobyns rods come with a lifetime warranty.  

 

The AA cork on the Fury will not last as long, feel or look as good as the AAAA cork on the Xtasy.

[Choporoz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3NJhPNW0fM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXWtbRye4VU

These aren't going to answer your questions.  However, I found them fascinating....if you have even a tiny bit of interest in blank construction, take a look.

[MickD]

13 hours ago, clemsondds said:

still looking for what specifically is the main contributing factor to setting the modulus of a rod

I don't think we can define one specific factor.  Some of the newer hi tech blanks have no scrim, so that would take out a component that, while it has a function, does weigh something.  Whether the manufacturer found another way to provide the structural function of scrim that is lighter than scrim, I don't know.  But the blanks that are scrimless are expensive blanks and I do believe with blanks one tends to get what he pays for.  Considering the fact at the higher prices the incremental price increases don't provide the same incremental value increases as occurs at lower prices.  

 

If you want a slow action, many like glass, like E-glass.  But it will be heavier than graphite and graphite can give any action that glass can.  Graphite will be more sensitive.

 

If you want max sensitivity it will be high modulus graphite.  With or without scrim.

 

In all blanks design is very important.  This is the best I can do.

[WRB]

^^^ this^^^

The 3M company invented new nano resins that several rod makers used about 7 years ago to make scrimless rod blanks. My custom ALX rods use scrimless banks no longer availble from Lamiglas. Pure Fishing licensed 3M's nano technology limiting who could use the resins for making fishing rods.

There isn't any one element in making a reliable light weight high modulus flexible rod blank. All the components are expensive and labor intense used to make today's state of the art fishing rods. 

The graphite and or boron fibers used to make rod blanks haven't changedin the past 25 years, it's the technology, resins and components that have evolved.

Tom

[FrogMann]

On 12/17/2019 at 10:41 AM, WRB said:

There is a good article with Ken Kistler and Gary Loomis that discuses the today's high tech light weight rods. The history is interesting and some of us lived it.

We owe Gary Loomis our gratitude for solving the complex problem of high strength with flexibity we have today in bass fishing rods.

Tom

Just so you know. Gary Loomis didn't solve this. The engineers in conjuction with Gary Loomis were. Steve Rajeff was a major influencer and largely responsible. Still today Rajeff is whom we should thank as well

[clemsondds]

Soo...you guys that are very knowledgeable about blanks. Is there something you look for in a rod (materials wise) or do you go straight to just sensitivity and weight...and you don’t care about what the makeup is? Thanks! 

[Tim Kelly]

Reputation and price are better indicators than claimed modulus numbers.

[webertime]

19 hours ago, clemsondds said:

Soo...you guys that are very knowledgeable about blanks. Is there something you look for in a rod (materials wise) or do you go straight to just sensitivity and weight...and you don’t care about what the makeup is? Thanks! 

Feel in my hand when a spooled reel is attached.  Company reputation for standing behind their products.  That's it.

I've got a $100 discontinued Lamiglas rod that is nicer (to me) than a current Dobyns Champion in the same configuration.   Is it "technically" better than the Dobyns?  Heck no but I love it.

 

Just like any tool or piece of equipment, it's the relationship you have with it that determines how "good" it is.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

On 12/17/2019 at 9:39 PM, clemsondds said:

Thanks for your response and while it was helpful...still looking for what specifically is the main contributing factor to setting the modulus of a rod? amount of carbon fiber?  also what determines strain rate?  I assume multiple factors determine this (eg cf, scrim, resin...) but just trying to get a better grasp on things.  

Modulus is an aspect of the graphite material used. Scrim, resin, mandrels affect the finished product but not the modulus. In addition multiple modulus graphite’s are commonly used in an individual blank. You’re banging your head against a wall that isn’t going to give. There is no material spec or industry standard for you to compare apples to apples. Trial and error and on the water results is the only way to know. Feedback from trusted sources like our members is better insight than any “spec” or marketing claim. Only you can decide if an extra expense is worth it. Imo the point of diminishing returns on a factory rod is around $300. Any more than that I’d at least consider a custom built exactly the way you want it. 

[WRB]

Look up Young's modulus of elasticity if you want stress to stain defined.

Tom

[The Maestro]

The nature of your questions/probing leads me to think that you were either tasked with trying to get this information from your employer or you're trying to build your own rod/blank business.

[jimmyjoe]

   In the most basic, unscientific terms, modulus is "power", and strain rate is "speed". And although that description might be handy, it is an extreme over-simplification. Here's why:

   Let's say you walk into a room where a manufacturer assembles engines, and you ask him, "What's the Brinell hardness of your engine?"   He can't reply, because there is no such quality. The engine is made up of the block, which is a low hardness, a crank, which is harder, and tappets and cams and lifters which are different hardnesses again. But not the whole engine. Only the parts.

   In the same way, "modulus" describes the materials (or parts) in a rod, but not (usually) the total, finished product.

   That's what @Mick D means when he says design makes the difference. Take those engine parts again; the same hardness of springs, tappets and crank, et. al., can be used to make a racing engine that will turn 30,000 RPM .....or a pump for irrigation that turns 1,600 RPM. Big difference.

   Same with rods.

   So when you ask what SPECIFICALLY is the major contributing factor to whichever characteristic a rod has, it's like asking what SPECIFICALLY is the major contributing factor to the working characteristics of such-and-such motor. No answer. Non sequitur.

   And every manufacturer who makes a motor to do a certain specific task will design it differently. All of those motors from all those different manufacturers will do that certain task, whatever it is, but they'll be different motors.

   Same with rods.

   Clear as mud now?  ?    jj

  

[clemsondds]

3 hours ago, The Maestro said:

The nature of your questions/probing leads me to think that you were either tasked with trying to get this information from your employer or you're trying to build your own rod/blank business.

Lol I’m a dentist. Just curious  

[clemsondds]

2 hours ago, jimmyjoe said:

   In the most basic, unscientific terms, modulus is "power", and strain rate is "speed". And although that description might be handy, it is an extreme over-simplification. Here's why:

   Let's say you walk into a room where a manufacturer assembles engines, and you ask him, "What's the Brinell hardness of your engine?"   He can't reply, because there is no such quality. The engine is made up of the block, which is a low hardness, a crank, which is harder, and tappets and cams and lifters which are different hardnesses again. But not the whole engine. Only the parts.

   In the same way, "modulus" describes the materials (or parts) in a rod, but not (usually) the total, finished product.

   That's what @Mick D means when he says design makes the difference. Take those engine parts again; the same hardness of springs, tappets and crank, et. al., can be used to make a racing engine that will turn 30,000 RPM .....or a pump for irrigation that turns 1,600 RPM. Big difference.

   Same with rods.

   So when you ask what SPECIFICALLY is the major contributing factor to whichever characteristic a rod has, it's like asking what SPECIFICALLY is the major contributing factor to the working characteristics of such-and-such motor. No answer. Non sequitur.

   And every manufacturer who makes a motor to do a certain specific task will design it differently. All of those motors from all those different manufacturers will do that certain task, whatever it is, but they'll be different motors.

   Same with rods.

   Clear as mud now?  ?    jj

  

Ok thank you!!  That does make sense. Thank you to everyone that has contributed. Unfortunately, I don’t live close to anywhere where I can test various high end rods, so I’ll just continue to do research on a specific model and make the best educated guess. It was fun learning more about rod composition and the process. 

[Tim Kelly]

6 hours ago, clemsondds said:

Ok thank you!!  That does make sense. Thank you to everyone that has contributed. Unfortunately, I don’t live close to anywhere where I can test various high end rods, so I’ll just continue to do research on a specific model and make the best educated guess. It was fun learning more about rod composition and the process. 

Like for most of us, it's an expensive learning curve. Enjoy!

[NOC 1]

On 12/23/2019 at 5:07 PM, jimmyjoe said:

   In the most basic, unscientific terms, modulus is "power", and strain rate is "speed". And although that description might be handy, it is an extreme over-simplification. Here's why:

   Let's say you walk into a room where a manufacturer assembles engines, and you ask him, "What's the Brinell hardness of your engine?"   He can't reply, because there is no such quality. The engine is made up of the block, which is a low hardness, a crank, which is harder, and tappets and cams and lifters which are different hardnesses again. But not the whole engine. Only the parts.

   In the same way, "modulus" describes the materials (or parts) in a rod, but not (usually) the total, finished product.

   That's what @Mick D means when he says design makes the difference. Take those engine parts again; the same hardness of springs, tappets and crank, et. al., can be used to make a racing engine that will turn 30,000 RPM .....or a pump for irrigation that turns 1,600 RPM. Big difference.

   Same with rods.

   So when you ask what SPECIFICALLY is the major contributing factor to whichever characteristic a rod has, it's like asking what SPECIFICALLY is the major contributing factor to the working characteristics of such-and-such motor. No answer. Non sequitur.

   And every manufacturer who makes a motor to do a certain specific task will design it differently. All of those motors from all those different manufacturers will do that certain task, whatever it is, but they'll be different motors.

   Same with rods.

   Clear as mud now?  ?    jj

  

Great answer!

 

To add to the confusion, imagine that instead of 1 scale like "Brinell Hardness". Each maker can and does come up with their own way of describing their material. Is an IM 6 material equivalent to 30 tom fiber, 36 ton fiber..etc.

 

Add to that that the fiber can be laid in 2,3,4,5, maybe more each of which might be in a coils, horizontal, helix, double helix, 45 degree or 85 degree helix or a combination, crosshatch , and other configurations. The scrim could be sheeted, coiled tape, basket weave, missing completely or even different combinations on different sections of the same blank.

 

In spite of what some have said, there is a difference in the fiber material as well. The Toray fiber is not the same as the old graphite, and Mitsubishi fiber is different from the other brands etc.

 

Now as if all that isn't enough, no one who is making blanks is telling exactly what their formula and techniques are.

 

Then add to all that, that the exact shape of the mandrell that the carbon fiber is wound on can be almost any combination of shapes, transitions, size and whatever else.

 

As others have said, there really is no pat answer, so the best you can do is see what you like and buy that. If a $100 rod feels great to you, then that is a great rod. For someone else that great rod might cost $800...but they are both great rods.

[clemsondds]

Thank you all! Got a st croix premier spinning rod and it weights 5oz. Got a Major Craft spinning rod and it weights 2.8oz. The st croix is quite a bit more in price. I’m going to try to test them thoroughly soon. Both are pretty close to exact same spec. 

[Greenfrog]

Yes the rods are made from adding multiple layers of graphite or fiberglass to a blank. When the desired thickness is achieved the blank is done.