What makes a good (sensative) rod/blank? What's the difference between $100 rod and $800 rod

[clemsondds]

Just wanting to learn more about rods/blanks.  I was just in the store and the fishing section manager was going on and on about how Favorite rods are way better than anything else right now in their store (g.loomis, dobins, st croix,..). I asked him to explain and he said that they are japanese blanks and are much higher quality.  Then he started talking about the composition of the various rods and why favorite starts with higher quality blanks. Anyway, all that to say, I realized I really know nothing about the materials of a good blank and why one cost more than the other.  I understand the basics, but can anyone give me a good rundown of why Dobyns rods (in general) are better than say ugly stick, and megabass rods are better than dobyns rods in general.  I understand there's a lot of difference in the rods...just looking to learn what those differences are.  I also realize there's a ton of different types of rods out there.  Just looking for a basic education on the different materials they use to create blanks.  Thanks! 

[Glaucus]

I know very little about how a rod is made. I just know higher quality, more expensive rods are generally lighter, better balanced, and actions are truer (cheap rods tend to be more parabolic). 

 

I'm chiming in to say that Favorite rods are garbage and I would never shop anywhere where staff is pimping them as the best thing. The Googan Squad popularized them, but even they've moved away from them. Saying Favorite is better than Loomis, Dobyns, Croix, etc is like trying to convince someone this year's Dolphins team is better than the Patriots. It's laughable and blatantly false.

[Pfisher]

I'm not sure either but in the last three months I have fished the Gloomis IMX pro and GLX in the same model/action.  In baitcasting I can't tell a ton of difference, especially since I use braid most of the time.  In spinning models though I can tell a huge difference in the sensitivity.  I know own 4 GLX spinning rods and might as well leave the others at home ?

 

Considering their is only a $100 difference I was really surprised in the difference.  

[jimmyjoe]

55 minutes ago, clemsondds said:

going on and on about how Favorite rods are way better than anything else right now in their store (g.loomis, dobins, st croix,..).

   I was drinking coffee when I read that part of your post. I've just now got done cleaning the keyboard. Please warn me when you're gonna print that kind of stuff again, ok?   Thank you!    jj

[FishTank]

I can't speak a whole lot about the difference between one material or the next when it comes to rods but I do know what I like to fish and what a rod should feel like in hand. 

 

When I took a look at the Favorite rod display at DSG, I was not impressed.  I had seen pictures of them before and pretty much already made up my mind that these were more gimmick than substance.  When I put one in my hand, saying they were gimmicky definitely didn't sum it up.  I would add that they are way, way over hyped and really not very well made.  I do give them credit for doing a great job of marketing. 

[Boomstick]

1 hour ago, Glaucus said:

I know very little about how a rod is made. I just know higher quality, more expensive rods are generally lighter, better balanced, and actions are truer (cheap rods tend to be more parabolic). 

 

I'm chiming in to say that Favorite rods are garbage and I would never shop anywhere where staff is pimping them as the best thing. The Googan Squad popularized them, but even they've moved away from them. Saying Favorite is better than Loomis, Dobyns, Croix, etc is like trying to convince someone this year's Dolphins team is better than the Patriots. It's laughable and blatantly false.

Of the Googan squad, I think LunkersTV is the only one that uses his rod 90% of the time. Flair and Jon B appear to use whatever, and LakeForGuy usually uses Dobyns rods and Shimano reels.

 

They are definitely not the best rods out there -- or the best rods for the price. Go in the store and light tap the tip on something (preferably moderately soft) and see if you can even feel it -- I bet you won't. I can honestly feel vibrations in the tip of my glass rods long before I could with Favorite rods. And since you're in a store, do the same with Dobyns Fury or Sierra or a St. Croix Mojo Bass or a G Loomis E6X and feel the difference. And if they have any super expensive rods, see if you can feel the difference there. The sensitivity per dollar seems to drop quite a bit after the $150 mark or so, but that isn't to say there isn't any but most of my rods are $130-150.

 

The most expensive rod I have is a $200 St. Croix Avid X, 6'9" ML/XF spinning rod that I use for finesse presentations. I got my youngest son a much cheaper rod for the same presentations, and it's not actually too bad, but you definitely can tell a difference.

[clemsondds]

Thank you for all the replies.  Forget I said anything about Favorite rods  . That was just an analogy.  I just want specifics on rod composition and design...what's the actual difference between eg  megabass destroyer line and g loomis glx..) What is it in the blanks that make up a high end rod?  I know it's a pretty technical question...but I know there are plenty of guys on here that could educate us.  Thanks

[Choporoz]

Great questions,  @clemsondds.  Like those above,  I haven't had enough desire to really understand the technical side.  I know what I like when I fish it.

We have some extremely talented rod builders on here and I look forward to their replies.   Also, you can learn a lot from @Batson,  a sponsor and quality blank source.  Their web pages are somewhat instructive,  and a lot of their older posts here are also educational. Lots of other good info on the web, but admittedly,  I got tired of trying to weed out the useless noise when trying to learn.

[LCG]

I would find a new place to shop with the poor advice you received at that store. Gloomis, st croix, Shimano, and other high end offerings have quality and customer service that are head and shoulders above favorite products. That sales manager is pushing stock they have Thats all and he is being dishonest with you. I would shop elsewhere. 

[Tim Kelly]

Favorite make some great rods that are available in Europe. Not sure they import them to the States though.

 

To answer your question, the quality of the blank and fittings make a big difference. A high quality blank with cheaper heavier guides will spoil a good blank and a cheaper blank with lighter guides will seem better than it would otherwise.

If you get a well made quality blank in one hand and a lesser rod in the other and tap the tip against the ceiling you will immediately feel the crisper sensation of the better blank in your hand. The rod recovers it's shape faster and wobbles less which gives you a crisper feel.

[MickD]

Weight is the enemy of sensitivity, so heavy is bad, light is good.  Which leads to small and light guides, because weight way out there on the blank has much more effect on sensitivity than weight in the butt.  Small, light guides contribute not only to sensitivity but to balance because most blanks over about 6 feet are tip heavy.  

 

Achieving lighter weight leads generally to manufacturers using higher modulus materials in their blanks, the higher modulus resulting in lighter blanks for the same power.  Which leads to better sensitivity.  

 

BUT. . . A very important ingredient in a really outstanding blank is design.  For example one of my favorite blanks is a 7 foot medium light RX7 blank that costs well under $100.  When I built one for my son his first reaction on fishing it was that it is "really sensitive."  He uses it for tubes for smb, an application that I think it is a little underpowered for, but he loves it for tubes even though he has two SCV St Croix's of the right power.  The finished rod weighs 3.6 oz, if I remember correctly.

 

How one determines how all this mixes together is not easy, but if I wanted to buy the most sensitive finished rod of a certain power and action, I would look to the reputations of the manufacturers and the highest levels of their rods.  I know of no way to measure sensitivity.  One thing you cannot do with modern high quality rods is evaluate them by twitching/wiggling them. (exc maybe fly rods)  They don't wiggle with their hi mod materials and light guides.  They leave many who are not familiar with this level of quality thinking they are too stiff.  One thing you can do that will tell some of the story is to take a miniature scale to the store and weight different rods.  Scales are cheap  on Ebay or Amazon, and are very accurate.  Weight doesn't tell the whole story, but if you're confused about the merits of one rod vs another, and one weighs in under 4 oz and the other is 5, it's very difficult to get a 5 oz rod (unless it's quite long or very powerful) to be really sensitive  The old 7 foot spin Ugli Sticks weighed about 5.3.

 

I don't think it takes a retail price of $800 to deliver a great rod.  I haven't been in the rod market (I build my own) lately, so am not sure what the top of the line (or close to the top) Loomis and St Croix rods go for, but I'll be you can get a great rod for about half that, or a little more than half. 

 

The price-value relationship that we are used to in many products works for rods, too.  Meaning that as you get pricier and pricier the incremental value added per dollar spent is less and less.  Finding the sweet spot that meets your needs is the challenge. 

[Oregon Native]

I too believe in the weight thing....when I put a rod together with a reel I want the outfit to be an extension of my arm.  I don't want to feel like I'm holding a hammer.  I have had inexpensive rods to very expensive rods feel like this...

It takes time...to match rods and reels but then you have something "BEAUTIFUL"....(Sorry)

Many hasteful put together 's now are in friends or other peoples hands.....!!!!

Take an hour or two....go in a well stocked store...match up and compare...would do this early in day as to get more help....Christmas probably is not the best of times.....good luck

[TBAG]

LOL, Favorite better than Loomis, St. Croix or Dobyns?

 

I need some of what he's smoking.

[MN Fisher]

4 minutes ago, TBAG said:

LOL, Favorite better than Loomis, St. Croix or Dobyns?

 

I need some of what he's smoking.

I'm afraid it'd result in permanent 'drain bamaging'. (twitch-twitch)

[MickD]

2 hours ago, TBAG said:

LOL, Favorite better than Loomis, St. Croix or Dobyns?

If you're asking me, I wrote "favorite," not Favorite.  I've never even heard of Favorite before.  The blank I was referring to is a Rainshadow.  I have two Loomis rods , built by me, and they are very good rods , and I've built many St Croix SCV and Avids.    My Loomis's are casting rods and the St Croix and Rodgeeks are spin.  I will say that the Rainshadow  is certainly competitive with the Loomis and St Croix (and Rodgeeks) that I've built on, and at a price point just under the Rodgeeks, about half the St Croix, and less than half of the Loomis's before they were no longer offerred as blanks.  It is interesting that many on this forum state their favorite spin rod is a St Croix SCV 7 foot medium lite power, fast action  The Rainshadow appears to be about the same power but with a little slower action.  The point of my mentioning that rod was to illustrate how important design is.  Here is a rod about two levels of modulus below the SCV and Loomis, and it's a great rod.

[WRB]

How to choose a bass rod.

1. Customer service and warranty, you want to buy from a rod maker who stands behind what they sell.

2. Select a rod that feels right to you. Put a reel on the rod with line and cast it using a practice weight you plan to use. Only you know what feels right for you.

3. What is light weight? Today a 7' baitcasting rod medium heavy fast action should weigh less then 4 oz. to be considered light weight.

4. Sensitivety is the dampening affect of the rod. When you test it (#2) feel the vibrations the practice casting plug feeds back when retrieved. The higher the rods material modulus are the more vibration you will be able to feel. All the rods components affect how the rod feels to you.

If the reel seat, guides and rod blank for example cost $100 the finished rod must sell for higher price point to make a profit to cover labor and operating cost. Rod blanks require hand labor and not mass produced by automated machines. Labor costs are lowered by going off shore verses making anything in Amercia or Japan where labor costs are higher.

Tom

[TigerBassAU]

Wow.... what a lot of good info you have already got, so I will try to add to it without beating a dead horse! 

 

So in a nut shell.....Higher dollar rods are usually lighter, have better components, and can vary in price based on labor cost (where made) and warranty! The rod blanks are also usually softer without sacrificing sensitivity due to various building materials and techniques which increase cost. 

 

Sensitivity..... I consider braid line the great equalizer for sensitivity. So if sensitivity is all you are concerned about buy a quality $100+ rod and figure out how to use braid for your fishing style. I say $100+ because that is usually the range where you get components that will last with braid line.

 

 I tested my "dead to most" E6X gen 1 models (803 & 893) vs my new GLX (853) using same reel and lure with braid and mono. Short story, very little difference to me with braid, but mono was a different story. GLX was only slightly less sensitive with mono compared to braid unlike the E6X models. FWIW, the 803 was slightly more sensitive with mono than 893 but nowhere near the glx. Think HD tv vs SD. I can feel the bottom rock but not near as clear. 

 

I think of sensitivity like sound volumes...at some point loud is loud regardless of decibels but turn it down and you can tell a major difference! 

 

But if you want it all.... Lightest rods with premium components and warranty...gotta pay to play!!

Edited December 16, 2019 by TigerBassAU

[TBAG]

1 hour ago, MickD said:

If you're asking me, I wrote "favorite," not Favorite.  I've never even heard of Favorite before.  The blank I was referring to is a Rainshadow.  I have two Loomis rods , built by me, and they are very good rods , and I've built many St Croix SCV and Avids.    My Loomis's are casting rods and the St Croix and Rodgeeks are spin.  I will say that the Rainshadow  is certainly competitive with the Loomis and St Croix (and Rodgeeks) that I've built on, and at a price point just under the Rodgeeks, about half the St Croix, and less than half of the Loomis's before they were no longer offerred as blanks.  It is interesting that many on this forum state their favorite spin rod is a St Croix SCV 7 foot medium lite power, fast action  The Rainshadow appears to be about the same power but with a little slower action.  The point of my mentioning that rod was to illustrate how important design is.  Here is a rod about two levels of modulus below the SCV and Loomis, and it's a great rod.

 

Nope, I was referring to what the idiot manager at the store told the OP.

 

 

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

Its not about higher price to get lighter weight. There are a number of rods in the $150 price point that are much lighter than comparable length power and action rods 3-4 times the price.

Dobyns, NRX ,ST croix extreme, Megabass dont have super light weight rods in the 3.3-3.5oz realm for 7' medium heavy fast action casting rods. Quantum Smoke, Okuma Helios, Phenix Feather, Powel indurance rods do weigh in that range. Smoke and Helios rods also have rather good balance even for being so light. 

[soflabasser]

You can do quite well with a decent sub $100 bass rod if you know what you are doing. Others struggle to catch lunker bass and they own several custom rods. What matters most is that you put in the time needed to improve your bass fishing game and everything else comes after. 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

Sensitivity where the blank is concerned is a function of stiffness to weight ratio, hence the high modulus graphite. Next, the guide train should consist of the smallest lightest and least number of guides that will hold up to the application, pass connections and distribute stress correctly. 

[new2BC4bass]

18 hours ago, MickD said:

If you're asking me, I wrote "favorite," not Favorite.  I've never even heard of Favorite before.  The blank I was referring to is a Rainshadow.  I have two Loomis rods , built by me, and they are very good rods , and I've built many St Croix SCV and Avids.    My Loomis's are casting rods and the St Croix and Rodgeeks are spin.  I will say that the Rainshadow  is certainly competitive with the Loomis and St Croix (and Rodgeeks) that I've built on, and at a price point just under the Rodgeeks, about half the St Croix, and less than half of the Loomis's before they were no longer offerred as blanks.  It is interesting that many on this forum state their favorite spin rod is a St Croix SCV 7 foot medium lite power, fast action  The Rainshadow appears to be about the same power but with a little slower action.  The point of my mentioning that rod was to illustrate how important design is.  Here is a rod about two levels of modulus below the SCV and Loomis, and it's a great rod.

I purchased a used custom 7' MHF RX7 Rainshadow and have to say I really like the rod a lot.  Seems quite sensitive to me.

[fin]

On 12/15/2019 at 8:46 PM, clemsondds said:

Just looking for a basic education on the different materials they use to create blanks.

Quote

Graphite (carbon fiber) is the main ingredient in a graphite fishing rod. In the case of fiberglass fishing rods the main ingredient is fiberglass. Composites are manufactured from blends of both graphite and fiberglass.

 

There is a substance called "scrim" that is either a thin fiberglass or graphite mesh, like a fabric. A thin layer of woven scrim (either graphite or usually, fiberglass) is placed over a graphite blank. Graphite fibers resist bending. The scrim is what helps prevent the rod from breaking.

 

Resin can be considered the glue or binder that holds the blank and scrim together. The type and quantity used has significant effect on the ultimate action of a rod. Today, in fact, resins are the most manipulated by technology of the three ingredients.

Good question. I don't know the answer, so I copied and edited that from another site. I think it's part of the answer you're looking for, but I think your question is kind of like asking, "What makes one chili recipe better than another?" It's somewhat subjective. The ingredients in the recipe (blank) are not the most important factor, it's how they are combined.

 

Maybe you think learning more about the materials will make it easier to shop for rods, but it's like choosing a chili based on looking at the recipe instead of tasting it. That's why nobody in this thread is really answering the question you asked, they are instead telling you what properties you should be looking for in a rod.

 

I think you are wise to ask the question though. The fact that there isn't an answer makes rods a very profitable business for some.

[clemsondds]

20 minutes ago, fin said:

Good question. I don't know the answer, so I copied and edited that from another site. I think it's part of the answer you're looking for, but I think your question is kind of like asking, "What makes one chili recipe better than another?" It's somewhat subjective. The ingredients in the recipe (blank) are not the most important factor, it's how they are combined.

 

Maybe you think learning more about the materials will make it easier to shop for rods, but it's like choosing a chili based on looking at the recipe instead of tasting it. That's why nobody in this thread is really answering the question you asked, they are instead telling you what properties you should be looking for in a rod.

 

I think you are wise to ask the question though. The fact that there isn't an answer makes rods a very profitable business for some.

YES! This is what I am looking for.  Just trying to learn more...not really looking for advice on buying a particular rod.  Just realized that I really have no idea what the various material options there are for rods, and why one is better than the other.  It's crazy how there's such a variety of rods (eg. $50 up to $1000) but not much info on why one cost way more than another...other that the usual vague terms like sensitive and weight. Thanks again for helping me with this! Any other thoughts? 

[WRB]

There is a good article with Ken Kistler and Gary Loomis that discuses the today's high tech light weight rods. The history is interesting and some of us lived it.

We owe Gary Loomis our gratitude for solving the complex problem of high strength with flexibity we have today in bass fishing rods.

Tom