changing gear ratios with amount of spooled line?

[Hammer 4]

My Brain hurts.....

[J Francho]

Omg, there’s more. 

 

Actually, these threads are awesome. I’ve been known to be a measurebator on occasion

[dodgeguy]

11 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

It looks like we've got a good ole fashion physics argument going here.  

 

I agree that changing the amount of line on a reel does not change the gear ratio.  That's a number that applies only to gears in the reel.  Changing the amount of line on the reel does change the level of effort required to turn the handle.

 

Using the vehicle example.  Low gear does give you more power and less speed but increasing the size of the wheels would give you more speed and less power.  It's all part of the equation.  Changing the amount of line on a spool is the same as changing the size of the wheels and it does matter.

Absolutely correct.

[Dennis1972]

so is the final answer that it takes the same amount of effort to turn the 7 speed reel handle with less line as it takes to turn a 6 speed reel handle with a full spool? im ready to order and dont want to regret the purchase.

[Glenn]

Well, now for something different...

 

Casting a baitcaster that's less than 70% full can make it more difficult to cast. You could get more backlashes, less accuracy, and less casting distance (because you'll need to tighten down on the cast controls to prevent backlashing).

 

Just another fly in the ointment. 

 

[Dennis1972]

23 minutes ago, Glenn said:

Well, now for something different...

 

Casting a baitcaster that's less than 70% full can make it more difficult to cast. You could get more backlashes, less accuracy, and less casting distance (because you'll need to tighten down on the cast controls to prevent backlashing).

 

Just another fly in the ointment. 

 

but on the other hand i should get more casting distance due to the lighter spool that takes less inertia it get it spinning.....lots of flies in my ointment today

[CountryboyinDC]

Wow, I thought the bit about the gear ratio/tire size would be the kind of thing to bring folks to the same page.  Guess not.  @Dennis1972, why don't you just buy a reel for cranking?  25 IPT may be okay, or you might like a BB1 (probably closer to 20 IPT) or something else really slow.  I don't want to go even farther down in the weeds, but if you take off line, there'll be even more difference in the retrieve speed (assuming you turn the handle the same revolutions per unit time) between the end of your cast and when you've finished your retrieve than if you casted from a full spool. 

[Dennis1972]

well like i said earlier, i dont ever deep crank, the new reel will be used to fish squarebills, spinnerbaits, and buzzbaits only. all of my other set ups are dedicated rods/reels and are perfect for their jobs. but yesterday i was throwing squarebills and buzzbaits and i mentioned to my friend i was getting worn out after about 3 hours.... i did get 2 nice smallies for my efforts. i was reeling pretty fast with my 7 speed that is short lined to be slower, but i still got wore out. i do have a pretty much brand new 5 speed reel {deep cranking} sitting in my fishing gear room, but i think thats too slow for buzzbaits and square bills.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Dennis1972

[Deleted account]

10 hours ago, Dennis1972 said:

so is the final answer that it takes the same amount of effort to turn the 7 speed reel handle with less line as it takes to turn a 6 speed reel handle with a full spool? im ready to order and dont want to regret the purchase.

No, but assuming you are talking about the same reel with different gear ratios (or models with identical relevant dimensions) then yes, at some point of spool fill. The IPT will vary as the diameter of the line of the spool, so using the formula for the circumference of a circle, the IPT will be the diameter x pi. So yes, a half filled spool WILL have 1/2 the IPT.

 

For shallow to mid cranking with smaller baits, square bills and the like, it won't matter much. If you are going to be deep cranking with larger baits that pull hard, get the slowest reel you can find.

[fissure_man]

Stripping 20 yds of line for a 20% reduction in IPT (31 to 25) seems unlikely unless the OP is fishing with rope. 

 

Assuming ‘7 speed’ means 7.0:1 ratio, the reported IPT loss would correspond to a proportional decrease in ‘effective’ spool diameter from around 1.41” to around 1.14”. By volume, this outer 0.27” (~20%) of the filled spool should contain a minimum of 35% of the spool’s total line capacity, even if we assume the volume of the spool arbor is negligible. So if the stripped line (20 yds) made up 35% or more of the total line capacity, then the total capacity would have been less than 60 yds…?

 

This doesn’t jive with the later comment that the reel still has 100 yds left. I’m guessing the OP’s spool wasn’t totally filled to begin with, and/or the 31 IPT was never correct, and/or the actual line stripped was much more than 20 yards.  Dennis, is this close?

 

In any case, it is true and easily demonstrated that either stripping line or swapping gears to a lower ratio will have the same effect on ‘felt resistance’ and handle RPM for a given retrieval force and rate, if the resulting IPT is the same. If you close your eyes, there is no difference. 

 

However, there are other downsides to fishing with an under-filled spool as listed by others. Lost casting distance is the biggest one (IMO), especially if the job of the ‘geared down’ reel is to sling crankbaits and spinnerbaits. Contrary to posts above, I find it’s easier to control an underfilled spool in terms of backlashes, for essentially the same reasons that cause the loss of casting distance:

 

a) a smaller spool needs to spin faster to release line resulting in greater braking resistance, and

b) a more rapid drop in effective spool diameter as the line peels off further slows the rate of line release toward the middle and end of the cast, and

c) less weight on the spool probably helps with inertia issues/overrun at the end of the cast

 

Because of the above, some recommend underfilled spools for skipping.  But in general (IMO), the cons outweigh the pros.  A properly filled reel with the desired gear ratio and properly set brakes is ideal.

 

27 minutes ago, BassWhole! said:

So yes, a half filled spool WILL have 1/2 the IPT.

To clarify, this would need to be "half filled" based on spool diameter, not line capacity.  Stripping 100 yds off a spool holding 200 yds will reduce its IPT, but not by half.

[CountryboyinDC]

9 hours ago, Dennis1972 said:

but yesterday i was throwing squarebills and buzzbaits and i mentioned to my friend i was getting worn out after about 3 hours

Another thing about reels made for resistance baits - they tend to have longer handles.

[Fishingmickey]

I remember back in the day a 5:1 ratio was about as fast as they made (35-40 years ago). If your planning on throwing larger double willow leaf spinnerbaits a 6:1 will perform very well.

FM

[Dennis1972]

6 hours ago, fissure_man said:

 

 

6 hours ago, fissure_man said:

Stripping 20 yds of line for a 20% reduction in IPT (31 to 25) seems unlikely unless the OP is fishing with rope. 

 

Assuming ‘7 speed’ means 7.0:1 ratio, the reported IPT loss would correspond to a proportional decrease in ‘effective’ spool diameter from around 1.41” to around 1.14”. By volume, this outer 0.27” (~20%) of the filled spool should contain a minimum of 35% of the spool’s total line capacity, even if we assume the volume of the spool arbor is negligible. So if the stripped line (20 yds) made up 35% or more of the total line capacity, then the total capacity would have been less than 60 yds…?

 

This doesn’t jive with the later comment that the reel still has 100 yds left. I’m guessing the OP’s spool wasn’t totally filled to begin with, and/or the 31 IPT was never correct, and/or the actual line stripped was much more than 20 yards.  Dennis, is this close?

 

In any case, it is true and easily demonstrated that either stripping line or swapping gears to a lower ratio will have the same effect on ‘felt resistance’ and handle RPM for a given retrieval force and rate, if the resulting IPT is the same. If you close your eyes, there is no difference. 

 

However, there are other downsides to fishing with an under-filled spool as listed by others. Lost casting distance is the biggest one (IMO), especially if the job of the ‘geared down’ reel is to sling crankbaits and spinnerbaits. Contrary to posts above, I find it’s easier to control an underfilled spool in terms of backlashes, for essentially the same reasons that cause the loss of casting distance:

 

a) a smaller spool needs to spin faster to release line resulting in greater braking resistance, and

b) a more rapid drop in effective spool diameter as the line peels off further slows the rate of line release toward the middle and end of the cast, and

c) less weight on the spool probably helps with inertia issues/overrun at the end of the cast

 

Because of the above, some recommend underfilled spools for skipping.  But in general (IMO), the cons outweigh the pros.  A properly filled reel with the desired gear ratio and properly set brakes is ideal.

 

To clarify, this would need to be "half filled" based on spool diameter, not line capacity.  Stripping 100 yds off a spool holding 200 yds will reduce its IPT, but not by half.

 i am not sure that it is exactly 20 yards off the spool. it looks like there is still at least 3/4 or 75% of the line still on the spool.  i did not measure with a full spool, i am just going by the literature that says its 31" ipt when full {120 yards}. i am assuming the factory got it right.

[Deleted account]

2 hours ago, Dennis1972 said:

 

 i am not sure that it is exactly 20 yards off the spool. it looks like there is still at least 3/4 or 75% of the line still on the spool.  i did not measure with a full spool, i am just going by the literature that says its 31" ipt when full {120 yards}. i am assuming the factory got it right.

We're still doing this? Ok then. The amount of line in yards has no bearing (pun intended). The difference in circumference of the spool as filled does. So it could be a lot of 8 lb test, or a little 25 lb test.

[Dennis1972]

well, its 12lb trilene big game line. big game is a little thicker than other lines. not that it matters, as the spool is still 3/4 full. and it casts like a dream 3/4 full. i could not belive the distance i was getting with a 1/4oz square bill till i lost it, then i switched to an even lighter one and was still bombing way out there. i think i decided on another 7 gear ratio, i will just take some line off again as the temps drop to slow it down.

[WRB]

For what it's worth I use both 10 lb and 12 lb green Big Game mono for crankbaits since the mid 80's. BG was under $8 for 1/4 lb spools for all that time period so changing it as needed wasn't an issue. Caught a lot of big bass cranking with BG mono.

The past year I have been using Sunline Diefer Armillo 11 lb, small dia with exceptional casting distance, but a lot more expensive but don't fish as often.

All the detailed thread was intended for high water resistant deep divers, medium and lipless cranks reel gear ratios or IPT are not a factor.

Tom