braid to smaller leader knot question

[ryanlcomer]

I've used the FG knot with a ton of success saltwater fishing for a couple years.  I'm using spinning gear and 20lb. suffix to 20lb. vanish fluorocarbon.  But I'm having slipping and breaking with my bass setups.  I just re-watched saltstrongs video on the FG knot and at the end Jon says NOT to use the FG when using a smaller leader.  I think this may be the problem.  For spinning i'm using 20lb. suffix to 8lb. invisx.  Many times I have to retie to have the braid bite and change color showing its cinched in.  For casting I'm mostly using Shimano SLX combos with 30lb. suffix 832 with either 14lb. trilene xl or vanish 20lb.  Most of my breaks are during casting or when snagged .  I use about 6ft. of leader so the knot is never next to the tip while casting.  Everything I'm throwing well within the rod specs.  These breaks can occur after a few casts or a couple hours.  The breaks happen at or near the knot on the leader side.  Any ideas?

[king fisher]

I have used FG knot for salt water for many years.  For lighter line, I prefer to use the Crazy Alberto.  I used Double Uni for years, and it worked well too.  I did do some knot tests with a scale, and found the FG to be the strongest, next was the Crazy Albert.  , Double uni, and double nail knot tested equal, with blood and triple surgeons coming in last.  Tests were done with many different pound tests.  In the real world of fishing I have had success with all knots listed.  Because of my tests results, and others I have seen on U Tube,  I do not use blood or surgeons knots for braid.  Again, I'm not saying they don't work, just prefer taking my test results  and applying the knowledge to my fishing.   I use the FG with any leader over 20 lbs. as long as the braid is less diameter than the leader. With lighter line I am very happy with the Alberto, not as strong, or as small as the FG but close in size and strength. Double Uni is easy to tie, holds well, but is bulky especially if using a heavy or stiff leader.  The past year I have used braid, less than in the past, and usually don't use any leader at all. When I don't want to tie braid direct to the lure, I'm  more likely to just use straight mono or floro.  Salt water I have gone to hollow braid spliced, avoiding knots all together.

[waymont]

You want to have an awesome spinning set up? I use 8 and 10lb PP braid with 8lb invizx all the time, and it makes a perfectly balanced combination. You will be able to cast so far, and it has so little drag in the water you will love it. I always tie an FG with zero issues. Won’t hurt to try it out.

It is true that the FG works best when the leader is a thicker diameter than the braid.

[J Francho]

What I think is awesome is not using a leader at all, and going straight fluoro.

[ryanlcomer]

I agree, 10lb. braid would be better.  I’m using my light inshore spinning setup for double duty and need the 20lb.  It’s a custom Laguna rod ml-mf  with the Shimano ci4+.

[NHBull]

If you choose to use a smaller diameter leader and the FG is slipping, loo, at the PR.Its incredibly strong and smaller.  That said, a Rizzoto (sp) finish on the FG helps

[Bassattackr]

Alberto is a good alternative.   Works well for all line ratios.

[Deleted account]

4 hours ago, waymont said:

You want to have an awesome spinning set up? I use 8 and 10lb PP braid with 8lb invizx all the time, and it makes a perfectly balanced combination. You will be able to cast so far, and it has so little drag in the water you will love it. I always tie an FG with zero issues. Won’t hurt to try it out.

It is true that the FG works best when the leader is a thicker diameter than the braid.

This ^.  A spinning rod with 10 lb braid and no leader, or a leader anywhere from 10 -15 lb mono will cover a lot of ground. When I'm running and gunning from shore, specially in the late winter/early spring, that's all I bring.

[CountryboyinDC]

I've never done experiments like @king fisher, but I only use the Crazy Alberto, mainly because the FG or bobbin knot take more time.  I didn't know the FG was failure-prone if the braid was thicker than the leader.  The times I break off, it's always down the leader, usually at the terminal knot.

[ryanlcomer]

I guess my more specific question is how well are people using the FG on casting reel when most use 30lb. braid or more for the main line and use a 10-20 mono/fluro leader?  I got a half day of fishing in yesterday.  For casting rods I went back to the double uni and hand no problems.  It was loud going thru the guides but the knots looked fine.  For spinning I used the FG but on 20lb. fluro.  Not a single failure.

 

Dink-I think the issue is strength and not diameter.  The FG knot puts a load on the leader.  Plus 30lb. braid is equivalent to 8lb. mono.

[MassYak85]

Are they actual breaks or just the line slipping? If it's slipping it could be that you are using too few or too many turns in the knot. Too many and all of the turns are not going to bite, like you said you want all of the turns to darken when you tighten the knot. Too few and you won't have enough bite to hold the leader. I found 16-18 turns was good for me generally. 

 

Personally, I settled on the Alberto knot or the blood knot (bigger diameter lines I prefer the blood knot). I liked the FG knot but I just couldn't put 100% trust into the finishing methods to keep it from unraveling. I like the Alberto and Blood knot cause if I screw up the knot at all I can see it immediately. You said sometimes they break hours into it, could it be that your finishing hitches are slowly unraveling? 

 

Some may say leaders add an extra weak spot and to not use them, just go straight fluoro/mono. You know what else also adds a weak spot? Kinked line....the kind of kinked line you get when you backlash fluorocarbon and the loops bind up and now you have a weak spot 30 yards into your spool and you later snap off on a hookset at that exact spot and now need to re-spool $20 dollars of line in the middle of a fishing trip or else decommission the setup for the day. Ask me how I know. At the end of the day it's what you have the most confidence in and what you trust. If I backlash fluoro I have 0 confidence in the quality of the line going forward. If I screw up a leader knot I can just retie without losing mainline. 

 

 

[Further North]

On small diameter line to smaller mono, fluoro, or hybrid line, I increase the wraps on my FG knots.  I'll go 20, 24, whatever it takes.

 

 

[txchaser]

 

1 hour ago, MassYak85 said:

I just couldn't put 100% trust into the finishing methods to keep it from unraveling

I saw a video that helped a bunch, haven't had an unravel since - important part was wetting your fingers and protecting the knot and line, and hitting the braid tag with the blue flame part of a lighter. Balls it up a little and locks it down. Haven't had an unravel since, in what's probably 100 knots.

 

On 9/23/2019 at 12:12 PM, ryanlcomer said:

Many times I have to retie to have the braid bite and change color showing its cinched in.

Possible that you are over-tightening and stressing the flouro beyond it's point of elasticity?

For what it's worth, my experience with 6 & 8 lb leader is that it's so finicky as to be nearly unusable. My hunch is this - when the whole line is flouro there's plenty of elasticity, but the shock of the no-stretch braid is just too much for it, at least at my skill level.

 

I've also noticed that the really smooth braids are much harder to get color change or lock-in on; for a week or so I've been wetting before I cinch and it seems to be helping. Seems backwards but.. I was out of other ideas.

 

Bit of a rant but personally I'm starting to work out which rods I can ditch the braid-to-leader setup, because I'm getting tired of fiddling with it... I'm habitually throwing into the gnarliest stuff I can find (thanks BR, learned that here) because where I've been fishing, that's often where the fish are. And I've learned to check the line more often (thanks BR) and I'm often getting nicks, rough spots, teeth wear, etc. I don't really enjoy fiddling with it all the time, on or off the water. But I'm a little wary of the nasty backlash problem, which braid seems to be very forgiving about. Little by little I'm getting better at jamming my thumb down quick, but I've in no way mastered it, especially when I keep backing down the mag drag just a little. Sufix Advance Mono seems less rubber-bandy than the other lines I've tried so that's helping. 

[islandbass]

Because there are quite a few line joining knots out there that generally work well, the Albright knot is pretty much forgotten and does not appear on many people’s radar. That is unfortunate. 

 

One, it’s a kick butt knot for joining two lines and two, the kicker is that it works even when the line diameters of the two lines are on the extremes. 

 

However, you did mention vanish. You know why they call it vanish? 

 

Try the Albright knot. If the same result happens, it might sufficient to suspect the culprit is the line and not the knot. 

 

Keep us posted. 

[cyclops2]

New line slips like crazy...………. SO...……… I put a single loop near the end of each line to be joined. Pull each tight. Then I tie a loose Improved Trilene knot on each line...…….. Start pulling the 2 lines together slowly. DO NOT let that tiny bump slide past the line knots. Stop the bump about 1/8" from the almost tight Trilines.  You want the bumps to stop just before each real knot...……… Final tighten each knot...…. The BUMPS are a positive stop. The knots can not slip  !!  The bumps prevent slippage of any pound test.  I am doing 4 pound test mono & 8 pound braid.  Plus no leaders.  

those little loops prevent line slipping.

[Smalls]

18 hours ago, Further North said:

On small diameter line to smaller mono, fluoro, or hybrid line, I increase the wraps on my FG knots.  I'll go 20, 24, whatever it takes.

 

 

This is actually counter productive. While you need enough wraps to prevent slipping, the less wraps you have, the more the braid bites into the leader.

 

You’ll never tighten it all the way to where it should be with your hands. It’s a knot that tightens down on itself the more you use it. 

[NHBull]

If your having problems with the FG......

 

After you do you first 1/2 hitch, cut the leader, light a match and blow out the flame....touch the match to the leader creating a mushroom.

Wet and pull. The mushroom will prevent further slipping.

Finish with Rizzoto (sp).

[Further North]

19 hours ago, Smalls said:

This is actually counter productive. While you need enough wraps to prevent slipping, the less wraps you have, the more the braid bites into the leader.

 

You’ll never tighten it all the way to where it should be with your hands. It’s a knot that tightens down on itself the more you use it. 

Interesting.  I've found the opposite, and I use the knot all the time.

19 hours ago, NHBull said:

If your having problems with the FG......

 

After you do you first 1/2 hitch, cut the leader, light a match and blow out the flame....touch the match to the leader creating a mushroom.

Wet and pull. The mushroom will prevent further slipping.

Finish with Rizzoto (sp).

I Like the mushroom!

[Smalls]

2 hours ago, Further North said:

Interesting.  I've found the opposite, and I use the knot all the time.

It constantly cinches down on itself. It’s easier for 12 wraps to cinch down than 20. 

 

I remember the guy from Salt Strong even mentions it in one his 400 FG knot instructional videos. 

[Yumeya]

Lately I've been using 15lb seaguar but usually use 10lb pline tcb8, on my spinning rods I run 8lb flourocarbon 

using a FG knot but have never had a issue.

 

Never had a problem with Sufix 832 either.

 

I did have some issues with duel hardcore super 8 slipping.

[ryanlcomer]

Thanks for the great input.  I've been lucky and have had a couple days of fishing this week.  I'm still interested to know how people are using casting reels with 30lb. braid and 12lb. leader.  I usually do the 20 turn version recommended by Luke at staltstrong.  I have also read that fewer turns tend to bite down better on thin line.  I ran my standard 20 turn on my spinning setup but with 20lb. fluro and it worked flawlessly.  The water was heavily stained and the bottom was nasty otherwise i would of used straight braid.  I used the good old uni-uni but it slammed hard thru my Shimano SLX guides.  The knots looked perfect at the end of the day and held great.

[MickD]

If you're using almost any pound test braid with an 8 pound test leader there is no need to use the FG.  A double uni is a piece of cake to tie, hard to tie wrong, is reliable, and with the lighter leaders will go through almost any guides cleanly if that is necessary.

 

For some reason, I've never found the popular and "always" successful Crazy Alberto to be reliable.  Something I'm doing wrong that I cannot figure out.

[ryanlcomer]

I have gone back to the double uni for spinning.  Still my question remains if anyone is having problems using the FG with casting reels on 30lb. braid to 14lb fluro or mono.  I just ordered a spool of 14lb. sniper.  I was having problems with 14lb. trilene mono and vanish 20lb. main line and leader.  I'm pretty confident in my FG not tying but who knows.  I've casted it thousands of times for saltwater with little issue but with spinning gear.  I think the better leader will help.