Big Bass Commentary

[WRB]

When I was in my 20's hunting trophy mule deer in the White mountain range on the Caifornia Nevada border east of Bishop where a herd of extrodinary bucks lived that were very wary of man. If you walked the mountains you rarely saw any deer unless glassing them with spotting scopes or binoculars. If you were on horseback the deer didn't seem to recognize a horse as being a treat until you dismounted, then they disappeared like ghosts. Average shooting range in the Whites was 250-300 yards if you got a shot at all.

The terrian is very steep with a pinyon pines, mostly rocky canyons at very high alitutde  between 8,000 to 12,000 feet where these big trophy bucks lived. Why these deer knew a 2 legged man was harmful and a rider on a horse wasn't is a good question, a man was a lot quieter then a horse. The Whites are very isolated with few humans other then hunters being up there.

The only thing I can associate it to is survival instincts. it's same with trophy bass that have learned man should be avoided, they just instinctively know.

Tom

[Catt]

7 hours ago, WRB said:

The terrian is very steep with a pinyon pines, mostly rocky canyons at very high alitutde  between 8,000 to 12,000 feet where these big trophy bucks lived. Why these deer knew a 2 legged man was harmful and a rider on a horse wasn't is a good question, a man was a lot quieter then a horse

 

Goes back to what I mentioned about deer being aware of something in their environment.

 

How many creatures standing upright on two legs do you think the deer encounter at those altitudes?

 

They may not "know" man is harmful but they are aware he don't belong there.

[Paul Roberts]

I do believe that deer do learn to recognize humans as dangerous predators, to be avoided on sight. How much they control they have over that concept is tough to get at.

 

Interestingly, they respond to human predation in a very similar way to how they respond to wolf predation, by changing home range use, activity times, and by holing up in cover for extended periods. These are behaviors we hunters, and rural folk, tend to think of as "normal" deer behavior. However, it's not, where the threat of predation is low. Urban, and National Park, deer are prime examples. Point being, their responses to human predators have a much older history.

 

Again, it's tough to discern where "instinct" (mere reflexive response) leaves off and executive control begins. We just can't get in there. But that is changing rapidly, with the explosive growth in neuroscience. We are going to know a lot more in coming years.

[Chowderhead]

On 8/2/2019 at 10:39 PM, WRB said:

I can't open the article but do vaguely recall it now that it's been pointed out to me.

I am using my memory and sometimes isn't as sharp as it may have been.

Tom

 

WRB - my link wasn’t meant to question any of your prior comments - hope you didn’t take it that way. Just wanted to add to the discussion the article. 

 

[WRB]

3 hours ago, Chowderhead said:

 

WRB - my link wasn’t meant to question any of your prior comments - hope you didn’t take it that way. Just wanted to add to the discussion the article. 

 

It was good you posted the link. I didn't remember Homer Circle comming out west and meeting Mike Lembeck. Mike like Bill Murphy were ghost on and off the water, very low key.

Tom

[Harold Scoggins]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 1:54 PM, WRB said:

The more we know about bass the more we realize we don't know as much as we thought. I do know giant bass are very special fish after spending a life time learning how to catch them.

Tom

Oh, how true this statement is! I've really enjoyed reading this thread, I hope it continues.

[OCdockskipper]

My brother has a place in Breckenridge Colorado, at about 10,000 ft altitude.  Every year in the fall a week or so before hunting season begins, herds of Elk move from the lower elevations where they spend most of the year to the highest elevations where there are no people.  They pass by & through my brothers property when they do this.  Then, when the short hunting season ends, they descend back down.

 

I don't know if hunting season was instituted to follow this migration, or if the migration was a result of the animals reaction to a consistent threat at the same time every year, but it is similar to some of the other reactions posted in this thread.

[Paul Roberts]

On 8/2/2019 at 9:43 PM, Paul Roberts said:

Homer Circle, for Outdoor Life (2007):

...

One morning, after donning earphones and submerging the aquaphone receiver, Lembeck listened for a while until he signaled me that he heard a beeping signal. Then he looked at his stopwatch to measure the time between beeps so he could identify the fish transmitting the signal. He gestured toward a small treetop that had collected windblown debris in its branches. It was several yards away, but within casting distance. "The signal I'm picking up tells me it's 'Mabel.' She's five years old, weighs about six pounds and probably never will be caught, but not because fishermen don't fish here.

 

"My test shows that either Mabel is well educated about angler sounds and ignores any lures, or she is just one of those fish that takes off for deeper water whenever she suspects a dangerous intruder is in the neighborhood."

 

Tempting Mabel
At that point I decided Mabel had to be caught and I was the fisherman who would do it. Fishing around in my tackle box, I rigged up with a plastic worm and told Lembeck my plan. "I'm going to try something tricky that maybe Mabel hasn't seen." I cast the worm about 10 feet past the woody cover, reeled it slowly back until it was just outside the pile and let it sit there, doing nothing. It was only a matter of time before the curious bass came out from her hiding place and inhaled the worm...or so I thought.

 

At that moment, I saw the aquaphone rod in Lembeck's hand turn and move toward open water. "There she goes, about a hundred feet down the shore and still going," he said with a grin. "I told you, if anything comes near her hangout, big or little, Mabel takes off like a scared rabbit. She is a survivor, like a lot of bass on heavily fished lakes. Probably, she never will be fooled by a fisherman."

...

Interesting that I remembered this as a "finesse" worm, and "6lb test"! Maybe those details were in another telling? Or, I just painted in those details, owing to the gravity of the situation... knowing there's a difficult 6lb bass just a cast away! 

[WRB]

The term finesse hadn't been coined before 1974 for bass fishing by Michael Jones to discribe how Don Iovino and Dick Trask were winning tournaments until the early 80's.

Bill Murphy was stitching worms using salt water size spinning tackle with 14 lb mono line as far back as the late 60's. 

I don't believe Homer Circle was using spinning tackle back in '74, but could wrong.....agian!

Tom

[Paul Roberts]

You're probably right on all counts there. I was happily painting away, in an impressionistic style.

 

[Paul Roberts]

OK... here's a story about some potentially "smart" bass...

 

Several years ago, while shore fishing a small public res, I spotted four large LMs holding along a stretch of shoreline. This was late June –past the spawn. A couple other anglers, heading out, said that "those big ones wouldn’t bite anything".

 

So...were these “big ones” just smarter?

 

I approached quietly, but somewhat visibly, and tried several things, including a 4” wacky’d finesse worm, a plastic craw, and a swimming worm, to no avail. I noticed though that when I approached, each bass reacted to my presence, but subtly. Their erect fins would sag a bit, and they’d drop a bit lower in the water column –doing what “head-hunting" brown trout fishers call “sulking”. They saw me, and they sulked. And they wouldn't bite.

 

So… I gave them a short rest, and then rotated back through each fish. This time, after having seen them sulk at my presence, I approached low to the water’s edge, and then kept hidden behind shoreline brush. Casting was difficult from behind bushes but the bass did not see me and did not sulk. And I caught three of the four! Two tipped up for the swimming worm on the first cast, like a trout coming up for a dry fly. Number three took the worm on the second cast. She was interested but turned away on the first, and took the worm killed and twitched on the second. The fourth had moved and spotted me on my attempted approach and, apparently having had enough, she vacated. The bass I lipped were two 19s” and a 20”. These were big fish in this water.

 

Were they smarter than other bass? Tough to say. I can say that they were easily alarmed, as most bass in public waters often are, esp on bright days. If any of these were spookier than others that day, I couldn’t say. I feel I can say that some bass are spookier than others, and although this can be an individual personality trait, it can also be ecological in nature. Male bass guarding a bed full of fertile eggs, and spiked on testosterone, may be the most difficult to spook. Immature bass (and deer) can be “dunderheads”. They can’t perceive as far as larger bass, have less experience with the environment, and live in high competition for food. That’s a recipe for a Darwin award. And there are lots of other things that affect a fish’s spookiness. 

 

In general, do fish have "intelligence"? I’d say, yes. But, that comes in degrees. In working on my just released documentary (on the development of behavior in largemouths) I conversed with comparative cognitive scientists on various things “intelligence”, and the general consensus was this: "Intelligence" is ancient, and widespread. And the comparison of animals —including fish— with humans, is a matter of degree, not kind. Essentially, our roots run deep.

 

We often ascribe “intelligence” to the fish we pursue. Brown trout have been called the "wiliest of trout". Carp fishers will say that they pursue the most intelligent fish (and I've been one of them). It's easy to shoehorn human perspectives onto other creatures —to be anthropocentric— simply bc... that's what we have to work with! After coming to understand the social behavior of mule deer, I came to see that they succumb to the very same bias! Which I called “cervo-centrism”. I've been able to get deer accustomed to me, and they then begin to treat me… like other deer. I realize that they cannot do anything else. I'm either a predator, nothing of interest, or… another deer. What’s a little strange, and exposes something of their mental processing —their impressionist painting!— is that I’ve done this in camo, street clothes, and blaze orange! Are they stupid? No. They are deer.

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, Paul Roberts said:

You're probably right on all counts there. I was happily painting away, in an impressionistic style.

 

Ok, dug around my library here at the house a bit and found a few things on Lembeck's study. But first, I'm going to stake the 'finesse' label on Charlie Brewer and Charlie Ritchie (after fishing with Brewer), who both used the term in several different light tackle articles in Fishing Facts magazine throughout 1973. I have yet to find anything in print that predates their use of the term in those articles.

 

Back on Lembeck, his study was on 203 Florida strain bass, listed as equally male and female. There was one 14 pounder, one 12 pounder, four 11 pound bass, and several 8 to 10 pound bass in the study. There were numerous bullet points that came out of that study, including;

 

• Bass showed no preference for or against light, and showed no avoidance of bright light or specialized use of shade.
• He documented various levels of activity and basically documented the 'homers' and 'roamers' monickers.
• Bass moved most (most active) during the morning or the evening, but there were also several documented cases of fish moving long distances in the middle of the day. This partly led to the terming of the individuality of bass.
• Along those lines, catch rates were similar (individualistic), with some of the tagged bass being caught numerous times and others not at all, which he again attributed to the individual nature of each bass.
• Weather was a non-factor in the overall location and movements of bass.
• Lembeck also dispelled some of the cold water lethargy belief by noting that some of the bass continued to make long moves in water temps that were below 55 degrees, though these did usually occur during the middle of the day.
• Certain 'spots' seemed to be more attractive to bass during certain times of the year. What he termed "shallow structure spots away from the shoreline", while always popular, saw particularly heavy use in late summer through fall.
• B.A.S.S. supposedly financed the study.
• In most cases, bass completely ignored boat motors (gas or electric) and wouldn't move unless approached within 6 feet or so by outboard motors. In clearer water, this depth extended to closer to 10 feet or a little more.
• Bass learned quickly, and once caught, were difficult to catch again for an extended amount of time. The mention in the Homer Circle article was a common response, where bass would literally leave an area if anglers got too close to where they could cast to a location a particular fish was holding. The exception occurred when cover was particularly heavy and the fish might have felt 'safer.'
• Tracked bass suspended a lot more than most people think.
• Specific bass had specific cover preferences, some prefering brush, other rock, some weedbeds, and varying degrees of thickness or thinness, again reflecting the overall theme of individuality.

[WRB]

I learned a long time ago that you can't tease an inactive bass into striking anthing.

As a young teen we had a rock quarry with 3 lakes the owner had stocked with bass and prey fish like bluegill, green sunfish along with native suckers, crawdads and frogs.

The quarry lakes had deep clear water like a swimming pool and easy to observe the bass. When the bass were seperated and suspended just slowly moving fins to stay stabilized you could quietly drop a weightless live bait in front of them and they either didn't react or backed up slowly moving away. You knew the bass recognized the lively prey but was not interested at that time in feeding. 

I believe it is important to accept the fact you can't catch inactive bass. These bass are not smarter, they are inactive at the moment. Same bass suspended but with move fin movement and alert you drop the same live bait and the bass strikes it before it gets close. 

Your timing is very important in fact may be the most important factor with everything else in place, right lure presentation and location.

I mentioned the mule deer of the White mountains because the eccosystem is unique like a trophy bass lake. When you travel through the Ownes Valley the beautiful High Sierra Mountains to the west side with snow cover rocky peaks and pine forest below 8,000 feet and Alpine trees like Popular and Aspin above are very popular for hiking, camping and fishing drawing a lot of people into them. Conversely the White from the valley floor look brown and rounded without rocky peaks visible. The high alitutde above 8,000 feet has few Alpine trees with Bristle cone and pinion pines and below 8,000 feet mostly  sage brush and a few stands of pine. The mountains are very old with large flat areas over 10,000 feet and 3 peaks over 14,000 feet; White, Boundary and Montgomery, mounts you probably never heard of! Few people venture into the White mountains although there is a lot of creeks with running water they are not stocked with trout. Camping isn't popular do in part to limited access and high winds. All this adds up to ideal big trophy mule deer bucks because of low hunting pressure. The same elements we try to find when trophy bass fishing, a lake with a population of big bass. The problem is the lakes are well known and heavily fished. 

To repeat myself if a bass doesn't learn to survive it will not become a big bass, they must isolate themselves from harms way.

Tom

 

[The Bassman]

3 hours ago, Paul Roberts said:

You're probably right on all counts there. I was happily painting away, in an impressionistic style.

 

And since then I've been unhappily painting away. Not sure if I've impressed anyone. LOL

[Paul Roberts]

Thanks @Team9nine. I remember some of that stuff. I believe from magazine articles. I never have found his original published papers. I wonder if he had published those results in a journal? Since it was financed by BASS, it may not have been fit for peer review? This appeared to be the case for John Hope's work tracking bass in TX. 

 

3 hours ago, The Bassman said:

And since then I've been unhappily painting away. Not sure if I've impressed anyone. LOL

 

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, Paul Roberts said:

Thanks @Team9nine. I remember some of that stuff. I believe from magazine articles. I never have found his original published papers. I wonder if he had published those results in a journal? Since it was financed by BASS, it may not have been fit for peer review? This appeared to be the case for John Hope's work tracking bass in TX. 

 

 

Not published in any technical journals to my knowledge. The closest, the one referenced all the time in other technical writings was a 1978 piece he wrote with Larry Bottroff that appeard in California Fish & Game. Beyond that, I've got a few newspaper articles on the study from 77/79 era. Still looking though.

[Deleted account]

12 hours ago, Team9nine said:

Not published in any technical journals to my knowledge. The closest, the one referenced all the time in other technical writings was a 1978 piece he wrote with Larry Bottroff that appeard in California Fish & Game. Beyond that, I've got a few newspaper articles on the study from 77/79 era. Still looking though.

Yeah, I'd be curious to peruse the raw data and methodology, I'm thinking there may be some confirmation bias, and or some misinterpretation of the results as it got passed down. It's hard to square "catch all sizes at the same rate" with "fish are individuals doing their own thing". Not saying that is the case, just that it makes me wonder a tad.

[bostonsox2904]

Looking for some input on this Homer Circle article.

"bass display no preference regarding sunlight."

"bigger bass-those in the 6- to 10-pound class-usually stay sequestered in one hangout away from the bank most of the year except when they move into the shallows to spawn or when a special feeding opportunity presents itself."

 

How do we connect the dots here.. It's not true that bass display no preference regarding sunlight. It's just that sometimes there's an opportunity too good to pass up. When the bluegills are spawning in the shallows, they'll tolerate the midday sun for the hunting opportunity. Otherwise, they stay in their offshore hangouts in less bright light.

 

I don't want to pick apart Lembeck's takeaways, but there's a handful that raise some questions.