Big Bass Commentary

[senile1]

Some people may be confusing rate with numbers.  There are more small bass than big bass due to predation, genetics, and disease which thins the herd, so to speak, as they get older - a common occurrence for every animal species.  Using the definition of trophy bass from the study cited by @Team9nine, let's say we have a body of water with 16 bass over 8 lbs.  In addition and just pulling a number out of the sky for comparison purposes, all other bass in the lake number 1200.  If these groups of bass are caught at the same rate of 1 in 8 as mentioned by the study, the following occurs:

 

• 2 of the 16 bass 8 lbs and over will be caught which is 1/8 or 12.5 percent.  
• 150 of the 1200 bass will be caught which is also 1/8 or 12.5 percent.

In the example above, the bigger fish of 8 lbs and over are caught at the same rate of 12.5 percent as the smaller bass.  However, since there are so few bass that live to be that size the numbers of smaller bass far exceed the numbers of big bass caught.  The FWC study is stating that if the big bass were smarter the rate at which they are caught would be lower or less than the 12.5 percent of smaller fish that are caught.

 

And as @WRB stated, "The majority of bass angers do not target big bass and prefer catching numbers of bass each outing. This simple truth is anyone can catch a big bass but few can catch them consistently. It's about knowing big bass behavior and locations it isn't about being smarter."  This doesn't mean the big bass are smarter but we have to be smarter to find them.

 

Having said all of that, I, like the OP, am just explaining what I get from the study.  You can draw your own conclusions on whether you agree with it or not.

 

[WRB]

Studies that lump adult bass behavior into groups or size over look the basic bass behavior, they are individuals not schools or groups of fish. There may be occasions bass group together as adults to hunt prey because they are more effective then an individual.

If you have tagged 16 bass that weighed 8 lbs and expect to derive anything from it by the 4 fish being caught is meaningless regarding behavior. The study doesn't indicated how many times the same bass was caught, that would indicate how aggressive that bass was.

Tom

[senile1]

49 minutes ago, WRB said:

Studies that lump bass behavior into groups or size over look the basic bass behavior, they are individuals not schools or groups of fish. There may be occasions bass group together as adults to hunt prey because they are more effective then an individual.

If you have tagged 16 bass that weighed 8 lbs and expect to derive anything from it by the 4 fish being caught is meaningless regarding behavior. The study doesn't indicated how many times the same bass was caught, that would indicate how aggressive that bass was.

Tom

 

I am sure some fish in the study had to be caught multiple times, and since they were each tagged with an ID number it would appear the study could have noted aggressive behavior as well based on the number of times a particular fish was caught.  This article doesn't mention this subject though.  That is assuming the tags were left on the fish and from my reading of the article that is what I inferred.  

[Paul Roberts]

6 hours ago, senile1 said:

Some people may be confusing rate with numbers.  There are more small bass than big bass due to predation, genetics, and disease which thins the herd, so to speak, as they get older - a common occurrence for every animal species.  Using the definition of trophy bass from the study cited by @Team9nine, let's say we have a body of water with 16 bass over 8 lbs.  In addition and just pulling a number out of the sky for comparison purposes, all other bass in the lake number 1200.  If these groups of bass are caught at the same rate of 1 in 8 as mentioned by the study, the following occurs:

 

• 2 of the 16 bass 8 lbs and over will be caught which is 1/8 or 12.5 percent.  
• 150 of the 1200 bass will be caught which is also 1/8 or 12.5 percent.

In the example above, the bigger fish of 8 lbs and over are caught at the same rate of 12.5 percent as the smaller bass.  However, since there are so few bass that live to be that size the numbers of smaller bass far exceed the numbers of big bass caught.  The FWC study is stating that if the big bass were smarter the rate at which they are caught would be lower or less than the 12.5 percent of smaller fish that are caught.

 

And as @WRB stated, "The majority of bass angers do not target big bass and prefer catching numbers of bass each outing. This simple truth is anyone can catch a big bass but few can catch them consistently. It's about knowing big bass behavior and locations it isn't about being smarter."  This doesn't mean the big bass are smarter but we have to be smarter to find them.

 

Having said all of that, I, like the OP, am just explaining what I get from the study.  You can draw your own conclusions on whether you agree with it or not.

 

The fact that the majority of anglers do not target big bass, but go for numbers -that is, they take what they can get- means that those trophy bass are simply caught more or less at random, along with a lot of smaller ones. This does not mean that there aren't anglers who can up their odds of catching big bass. As @WRB suggests, this is a narrow road that most anglers are unwilling to take. What the study suggests, is that BIG bass may not be inherently harder to catch, just that they are MUCH rarer, and... few people target them effectively. Guess that's my take.

[WRB]

Mike Lembeck a San Diego biologist performed a 3 year tracking study of 200 bass over a 3 year period in the early 70's. The LMB ranged from 1 1/4 lbs to 14 lbs making 800 tracking monitors. The Lembeck study would be very interesting to read today. 

The late Bill Murphy worked with Mike during the study period and mentions it in his book In Pursuit of Giant Bass.

The take away Murphy makes is bass are individuals and move around lot gathering at specific locations for short time periods. Bill mentions at San Vicente lake 7 of the radio tagged bass showed up at one location, a outside reef structure that he fished 2 days catching 5 bass limits between 28 to 35 lbs and caught 1 tagged bass during that time period. That indicates a lot of big bass gathered up on that reef.

Mike noted 1 of the DD bass lived in the marina during winter months when the lake was closed. When the lake opened the tagged bass made a bee line for the closed area behind the bouy line at the dam, about 2 miles away and stayed there the months the lake was open, every year during the 3 year study.

My point is big bass have learned to survive each year of it's life, if the fish doesn't learn it doesn't servive and will not become a big bass. Big bass are not smarter they are survivors.

Tom

[TnRiver46]

Some might say the yearly learning of how to survive is "smart" 

[BassNJake]

16 hours ago, WRB said:

 

Mike noted 1 of the DD bass lived in the marina during winter months when the lake was closed. When the lake opened the tagged bass made a bee line for the closed area behind the bouy line at the dam, about 2 miles away and stayed there the months the lake was open, every year during the 3 year study.

 

Tom

That is a very interesting bit of information there.

 

 

[Team9nine]

There was another bass in that study, a 6 pounder, that he said would never likely be caught because anytime a boat would move near or a cast would land in the area near her, she would immediately leave and head to deep open water. That was during year two of the study.

[Deleted account]

11 minutes ago, BassNJake said:

That is a very interesting bit of information there.

 

 

Maybe someone dropped a lake pamphlet and an english Rossetta stone overboard...

[WRB]

When the San Deigo lakes closed during winter in that era the boats where pulled out for maintenance and stack up on the ramp, the docks were left in the water. When the lakes opened all the boats put back, lots of activity going on to get ready to reopen. My guess is the noise and activity alarmed that particular bass and she headed for her quite sanctuary area that also had lots of prey availble.

Some individual bass are not catchable by anglers, they are too wary and seek quite areas away from boat traffic and angler activity.

I learned being very quite and approaching big bass areas knowing they could be spooked easily and making long cast increased my success. It's no different then walking around a clear water pond, the bass see or detect you are nearby they move off into deeper water. These bass have learned how to survive in their environment. 

The bass Mike Lembeck put radio trackers in were electro shocked fish and some may or may not have been caught by anglers.

The more we know about bass the more we realize we don't know as much as we thought. I do know giant bass are very special fish after spending a life time learning how to catch them.

Tom

[jbsoonerfan]

So basically some bass are introverts and some are extroverts. The introverts live longer because they aren't out sky diving and racing motorcycles. LOL

[Paul Roberts]

11 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

Some might say the yearly learning of how to survive is "smart" 

A chunk of my latest documentary, on the development of behavior in LMB, flirts with this... conundrum. While all livings things may be considered "robots" at one level or another, they are all mighty sophisticated ones. Took a lot of that "yearly learning" to reach such levels. That kind of "smart" runs through populations, to be tinkered with by individuals.

6 hours ago, Team9nine said:

There was another bass in that study, a 6 pounder, that he said would never likely be caught because anytime a boat would move near or a cast would land in the area near her, she would immediately leave and head to deep open water. That was during year two of the study.

They called her Mabel. Homer Circle threw her a finesse worm on 6lb line (knowing her position), she spooked and withdrew. Lembeck said he expected she would never be caught. Studies on personality in bass and other fishes, have shown that their are "types". Two frequent ones are "bold" and "shy" individuals, and each tend to have different tendencies when confronting novel objects, and in their hunting styles.

5 hours ago, WRB said:

The more we know about bass the more we realize we don't know as much as we thought.

This is true of just about any living thing you can name.

[WRB]

As I recall Homer a Circle worked Glen Lau, Big Mouth and Big Mouth forever, I don't recall Lembeck ever working with Homer?

My point is not every bass is catchable and every bass is a individual. We bass anglers tend to lump them into 1 behavior group. 

Tom

[Catt]

Is it just me or does anyone else notice the similarities between trophy bass & trophy deer?

 

A lot of what I've learned about trophy deer hunting I applied to trophy bass fishing.

 

I've watched through a spotting scope many a less stealthy hunter enter an area that holds big bucks while at the same time the buck was leaving the back side.

 

Probably just a dumb Cajun's observation ?

[TnRiver46]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

Is it just me or does anyone else notice the similarities between trophy bass & trophy deer?

 

A lot of what I've learned about trophy deer hunting I applied to trophy bass fishing.

 

I've watched through a spotting scope many a less stealthy hunter enter an area that holds big bucks while at the same time the buck was leaving the back side.

 

Probably just a dumb Cajun's observation ?

I was thinking the same thing reading all this . There’s a reason you see does everyday all the time and rarely see mr. big out walking around in the daylight. It’s because most people don’t bother with a small doe and they know what/where is safe. Wildlife basically just respond to the pressure that is put on them. They may not know it in their little brains but their survival strategies are very “smart” in my opinion. And older animals are smarter than younger ones 

[Paul Roberts]

1 hour ago, WRB said:

As I recall Homer a Circle worked Glen Lau, Big Mouth and Big Mouth forever, I don't recall Lembeck ever working with Homer?

My point is not every bass is catchable and every bass is a individual. We bass anglers tend to lump them into 1 behavior group. 

Tom

Homer wrote a couple articles about Lembeck's study for Outdoor Life. He fished with Lembeck for one of them, when he fished to Mabel. I think the article is still findable. I never have found Lembeck's published research though.

[WRB]

I lost most of my paper articles during the '94 Northridge earthquake from water damage. I see Michael Jones has a column in Western Outdoor News and he may have a copy of Mike Lembeck's paper or possibly George Kramer ( Kramersez1@aol.com), both knew Lembeck and Murphy.

Tom

[Chowderhead]

14 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said:

Homer wrote a couple articles about Lembeck's study for Outdoor Life. He fished with Lembeck for one of them, when he fished to Mabel. I think the article is still findable. 

https://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/fishing/2007/09/wheres-bass/

[Paul Roberts]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

Is it just me or does anyone else notice the similarities between trophy bass & trophy deer?

 

A lot of what I've learned about trophy deer hunting I applied to trophy bass fishing.

 

I've watched through a spotting scope many a less stealthy hunter enter an area that holds big bucks while at the same time the buck was leaving the back side.

 

Probably just a dumb Cajun's observation ?

Hmmmm... Not sure. I can't see the bass usually, so it's tough to say. I think there is "more to" a deer than a bass. Deer can definitely know they are being hunted. Not so sure bass can. I could be wrong but I suspect the bass Tom mentions in Lembeck's study that used a protected area during fishing season, may simply have coincidently used that closed area as its summer home range. If it was avoiding fisherman, it would probably have been bc it was a shy individual.

 

I can say though, that I agree with Tommy that mature deer are, or can be, WAY more capable at evading hunters than younger ones. Among many such experiences, I'll describe a big muley buck that I watched through binocs from my front deck a couple years ago. It was fall, pre-rut, but he was keeping track of a group of does. All the other deer, including some smaller yearling bucks, were quite active, moving about, and quite noticeable, for deer. But when that buck materialized, he moved very little. He stood statue still between movements, for up to 20min at a time. I thought, if I were still-hunting that mountain side, his "patience" would have had me pegged. Big bucks are particularly vulnerable to mountain lions here, so I can understand his caution. Big whitetails too, can be very difficult to see too. And, it's not just the bucks. There was a doe I got to know during a season, years ago, who, once she saw me for what I was, she could recognize me, instantly, over surprising distances, anywhere: Inside a blind, even melded into an old tractor that had been in the woods for years. She simply knew who I was.

 

Can older bass do this? It's suggested that bigger bass see better than smaller ones, bc their eyes gain more vision cells as they grow. And, cognitively, they have more experience. And, it's known that bass can become much more difficult to catch after they gain experience with fishing. But, can they put 2 and 2 together, like that doe appeared to be able to do? At this point, I kind of doubt it. 

[WRB]

11 minutes ago, Chowderhead said:

https://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/fishing/2007/09/wheres-bass/

I can't open the article but do vaguely recall it now that it's been pointed out to me.

I am using my memory and sometimes isn't as sharp as it may have been.

Tom

[soflabasser]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

Is it just me or does anyone else notice the similarities between trophy bass & trophy deer?

 

A lot of what I've learned about trophy deer hunting I applied to trophy bass fishing.

 

I've watched through a spotting scope many a less stealthy hunter enter an area that holds big bucks while at the same time the buck was leaving the back side.

 

Probably just a dumb Cajun's observation ?

A trophy hunter is a trophy hunter whether he is bass fishing, deer hunting, or some other form of hunting. The regular population of a certain animal is easy to catch but the most wary ones are not. A trophy buck in a highly pressured area is difficult to catch just like a trophy bass from public waters. Yes someone can get lucky and catch a trophy bass but not many bass fishermen are consistent at catching big bass and it shows just like the less stealthy deer hunters catch less big bucks.

[Paul Roberts]

On 8/2/2019 at 9:39 PM, WRB said:

I can't open the article but do vaguely recall it now that it's been pointed out to me.

I am using my memory and sometimes isn't as sharp as it may have been.

Tom

Homer Circle, for Outdoor Life (2007):

...

One morning, after donning earphones and submerging the aquaphone receiver, Lembeck listened for a while until he signaled me that he heard a beeping signal. Then he looked at his stopwatch to measure the time between beeps so he could identify the fish transmitting the signal. He gestured toward a small treetop that had collected windblown debris in its branches. It was several yards away, but within casting distance. "The signal I'm picking up tells me it's 'Mabel.' She's five years old, weighs about six pounds and probably never will be caught, but not because fishermen don't fish here.

 

"My test shows that either Mabel is well educated about angler sounds and ignores any lures, or she is just one of those fish that takes off for deeper water whenever she suspects a dangerous intruder is in the neighborhood."

 

Tempting Mabel
At that point I decided Mabel had to be caught and I was the fisherman who would do it. Fishing around in my tackle box, I rigged up with a plastic worm and told Lembeck my plan. "I'm going to try something tricky that maybe Mabel hasn't seen." I cast the worm about 10 feet past the woody cover, reeled it slowly back until it was just outside the pile and let it sit there, doing nothing. It was only a matter of time before the curious bass came out from her hiding place and inhaled the worm...or so I thought.

 

At that moment, I saw the aquaphone rod in Lembeck's hand turn and move toward open water. "There she goes, about a hundred feet down the shore and still going," he said with a grin. "I told you, if anything comes near her hangout, big or little, Mabel takes off like a scared rabbit. She is a survivor, like a lot of bass on heavily fished lakes. Probably, she never will be fooled by a fisherman."

...

[WRB]

There are standout individuals is all species. Alex the African grey parrot for example defies what we knew about bird intellect. In the wild it's survival of the fittest or cautious cunning critters. It's hard to relate intellect to bass, it's easier to label them aggressive or cautious and the cautious critters tend to live longer.

Tom

10 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said:

...

One morning, after donning earphones and submerging the aquaphone receiver, Lembeck listened for a while until he signaled me that he heard a beeping signal. Then he looked at his stopwatch to measure the time between beeps so he could identify the fish transmitting the signal. He gestured toward a small treetop that had collected windblown debris in its branches. It was several yards away, but within casting distance. "The signal I'm picking up tells me it's 'Mabel.' She's five years old, weighs about six pounds and probably never will be caught, but not because fishermen don't fish here.

 

"My test shows that either Mabel is well educated about angler sounds and ignores any lures, or she is just one of those fish that takes off for deeper water whenever she suspects a dangerous intruder is in the neighborhood."

 

Tempting Mabel
At that point I decided Mabel had to be caught and I was the fisherman who would do it. Fishing around in my tackle box, I rigged up with a plastic worm and told Lembeck my plan. "I'm going to try something tricky that maybe Mabel hasn't seen." I cast the worm about 10 feet past the woody cover, reeled it slowly back until it was just outside the pile and let it sit there, doing nothing. It was only a matter of time before the curious bass came out from her hiding place and inhaled the worm...or so I thought.

 

At that moment, I saw the aquaphone rod in Lembeck's hand turn and move toward open water. "There she goes, about a hundred feet down the shore and still going," he said with a grin. "I told you, if anything comes near her hangout, big or little, Mabel takes off like a scared rabbit. She is a survivor, like a lot of bass on heavily fished lakes. Probably, she never will be fooled by a fisherman."

...

Thanks, I have tried to catch several Mabel's over the years and the reason I make 50 yard casts!

Tom

[Catt]

13 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said:

Deer can definitely know they are being hunted. Not so sure bass can. 

 

Don't think deer know they're being hunted anymore that a bass does.

 

They're both aware something is in their environment that doesn't belong!

[Paul Roberts]

13 hours ago, Catt said:

 

Don't think deer know they're being hunted anymore that a bass does.

 

They're both aware something is in their environment that doesn't belong!

Yeah, it's tough to know where cognition leaves off and "thinking" begins. I do not doubt though that, as Tom says, there are individuals that have figured things out more thoroughly than others. Most of us aren't fishing for those individuals though. If we were fishing for Mabel's, we'd probably end up finding something else to do with our time!