FL vs N LM Catchability

[Paul Roberts]

Are FL harder to catch than N?

 

FL LM's (floridanus) are often reported to be tougher to catch, "pickier", compared with N's (salmoides). Is this be a real species character trait? Or an artifact of the waters floridanus inhabit: generally shallow, clear waters.

 

Interestingly, perhaps, is that bass in FL phosphate mine pits, with green water, have been touted as easier to catch. Up here, salmoides are generally easier to dupe in reduced visibility conditions, and much tougher in higher visibility conditions, esp in mid-summer, when the sun is high in the sky up here. Add shallow water and things get even tougher.

 

I also wonder if this is true for smaller FL bass too. Are people just talking about large fish?

 

Would love to hear the take of some CA folks, too, as they may have both floridanus and salmoides. And lakes with similar conditions (water clarity, depth, ...).

 

Bottom line: Are FL harder to catch than N?

[Choporoz]

Not sure how relevant to your questions....but it makes me wonder...What makes any one fish 'harder to catch' than any other?  That is, if you remove most external variables....put one N LMB next to another N LMB...same lake, same size, age, sex...what traits (or experiences, or intelligence..??) make one more catchable than the other? 

If there was a way to know...or there are good theories...it might help get to your answers above, Paul...maybe

[TnRiver46]

I think I can offer some insight. The answer to @Paul Roberts question is yes. The answer to @Choporoz question is fishing pressure. Where do more people fish than anywhere else? FLA. All year long. I work at a resort as a fly fishing guide where we stock trout in a tiny creek. Big ones. These fish go from dumb as a hammer to genius level in a matter of 2-3 weeks. They become almost impossible to catch very quickly, impressive for a pea sized brain. It's predator avoidance, plain and simple. Sure they still have to eat and can still be caught but fishing pressure makes them very hard to catch. And it happens really fast to sterile stocked rainbows, imagine how smart they could get when passing genes down to the next generation......like FLA bass

[senile1]

 

 

55 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said:

Are FL harder to catch than N?

 

FL LM's (floridanus) are often reported to be tougher to catch, "pickier", compared with N's (salmoides). Is this be a real species character trait? Or an artifact of the waters floridanus inhabit: generally shallow, clear waters.

 

Interestingly, perhaps, is that bass in FL phosphate mine pits, with green water, have been touted as easier to catch. Up here, salmoides are generally easier to dupe in reduced visibility conditions, and much tougher in higher visibility conditions, esp in mid-summer, when the sun is high in the sky up here. Add shallow water and things get even tougher.

 

I also wonder if this is true for smaller FL bass too. Are people just talking about large fish?

 

Would love to hear the take of some CA folks, too, as they may have both floridanus and salmoides. And lakes with similar conditions (water clarity, depth, ...).

 

Bottom line: Are FL harder to catch than N?

 

I always hear that Floridanus is more difficult to catch but your post begs the question, "What is the scientific evidence?"  The link below provides some information but I would like to read the documents from the original studies to see how they eliminated other variables that could affect the outcome.

 

http://sfrc.ufl.edu/allenlab/Popular Articles/18_DrMikeAllen_Nov_11.pdf

[Scott F]

I think there are several factors that come into play. Fishing pressure is certainly a factor. In northern states, walleye and panfish that are considered excellent table fare get most of the angling pressure. Bass are just not as popular up there so the pressure on them is considerably less.

Another big factor is the shorter open water season and less available forage. During the frozen water period, the bass don’t feed much so when when the water warms and their metabolism cranks up, they feed more often to prepare for the winter slow down. The waters are generally less fertile and don’t have as much forage to choose from. They can’t afford to be as picky so they are more likely to hit artificial baits. Considering the shorter feeding season, and less available forage, it’s surprising that the bass get as large as they do. They do however, live longer lives in general than their southern cousins

[JediAmoeba]

55 minutes ago, Scott F said:

I think there are several factors that come into play. Fishing pressure is certainly a factor. In northern states, walleye and panfish that are considered excellent table fare get most of the angling pressure. Bass are just not as popular up there so the pressure on them is considerably less.

Another big factor is the shorter open water season and less available forage. During the frozen water period, the bass don’t feed much so when when the water warms and their metabolism cranks up, they feed more often to prepare for the winter slow down. The waters are generally less fertile and don’t have as much forage to choose from. They can’t afford to be as picky so they are more likely to hit artificial baits. Considering the shorter feeding season, and less available forage, it’s surprising that the bass get as large as they do. They do however, live longer lives in general than their southern cousins

I think you are spot on with the seasonal disparity.  Our northern bass are basically in suspended animation for 1/4 of the year where they aren't seeing ANY lures except maybe live bait or jigs, if anything.  The northern bass also have other predatory fish to compete against (muskie, Pike and pickerel) and with a shorter feeding window on the year need to be a little more aggressive.  

[Choporoz]

There's a lot of Northern LMB waters with year round fishing, so I suspect the seasonal pressure variable could be accounted for 

[Tennessee Boy]

I know that our Tennessee Wildlife Resources agency has done a lot of research on the topic.  See this link for the details.

 

https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/twra/documents/FLMBstocking.pdf

[WRB]

I have written several times on this topic. 

When FLMB were introduced to San Diego City lakes the goal was to increase catch rate per man hour with larger size bass.  The program was monitored by Larry Bottroff fishery biologist. The study was published and could be located. The results of the program failed to meet it's goals do to the fact FLMB proved to be difficult to catch and rate per man hour dropped, however average size bass did increased.

Tom

[GReb]

We have a lake that was completely drained and restocked about a decade or so ago with FL LM. I’ve never caught a N in there at all. But compared to other fisheries who only have N it is considerably tougher to catch one. A good day there is catching 3+. But it’s also the best place to catch a 10+ lb in the state. From my experience the FL are much more finicky and are more affected by weather. 

[Shimano_1]

4 minutes ago, GReb said:

We have a lake that was completely drained and restocked about a decade or so ago with FL LM. I’ve never caught a N in there at all. But compared to other fisheries who only have N it is considerably tougher to catch one. A good day there is catching 3+. But it’s also the best place to catch a 10+ lb in the state. From my experience the FL are much more finicky and are more affected by weather. 

I would think this is likely the reality.  I've never been to Florida but have studied it all and fished a cple places with fl lb. I dont think they're necessarily harder to catch, they're just more affected by seasonal variables than N LM. Makes sense I guess if they're by nature used to warm weather that cold would affect them. That's what sets lakes like chickamauga apart.  They're hybrids that grow to the size of FL with adaptability of the N. That's my humble opinion anyway 

[Big Mike in Fl]

I didn’t know Florida strain was harder to catch... I never seemed to have a problem! That being said I’ve never fished for northern strain, so I have nothing else to compare it to.  

 

In all reality i don’t believe they’re harder to catch but rather they’re behaviors are different than northern strain, forage can be different, and the types of cover and structure are different. So someone who is used to fishing northern strain may struggle when trying to catch Florida strain for those reasons. 

 

But seriously, I’ve never had much of a problem...

[soflabasser]

I have caught both types of largemouth bass and came to the conclusion that northern strain largemouth bass are far easier to catch than Florida strain largemouth bass. There are many well known tournament anglers that struggle in Florida tournaments yet do very well in waters with northern strain largemouth bass.

1 hour ago, GReb said:

We have a lake that was completely drained and restocked about a decade or so ago with FL LM. I’ve never caught a N in there at all. But compared to other fisheries who only have N it is considerably tougher to catch one. A good day there is catching 3+. But it’s also the best place to catch a 10+ lb in the state. From my experience the FL are much more finicky and are more affected by weather. 

That lake sounds very similar to many lakes I have fished in Florida. Lots of 8 pound or better bass live in these lakes but it is hard to get them to bite. I prefer fishing these types of waters since I have a good chance at catching another 8 pound or better bass compared to northern waters where a 5-8 pounder is a personal best for most northern largemouth bass fishermen.

[Paul Roberts]

4 hours ago, Choporoz said:

Not sure how relevant to your questions....but it makes me wonder...What makes any one fish 'harder to catch' than any other?  That is, if you remove most external variables....put one N LMB next to another N LMB...same lake, same size, age, sex...what traits (or experiences, or intelligence..??) make one more catchable than the other? 

If there was a way to know...or there are good theories...it might help get to your answers above, Paul...maybe

There's quite a lot that can factor in. Beyond water body factors, "personality" is a known one. senile1's article from Dr. Mike Allen mentions this.

 

4 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

I think I can offer some insight. The answer to @Paul Roberts question is yes. The answer to @Choporoz question is fishing pressure. Where do more people fish than anywhere else? FLA. All year long. I work at a resort as a fly fishing guide where we stock trout in a tiny creek. Big ones. These fish go from dumb as a hammer to genius level in a matter of 2-3 weeks. They become almost impossible to catch very quickly, impressive for a pea sized brain. It's predator avoidance, plain and simple. Sure they still have to eat and can still be caught but fishing pressure makes them very hard to catch. And it happens really fast to sterile stocked rainbows, imagine how smart they could get when passing genes down to the next generation......like FLA bass

I've had similar experiences with trout too. It's amazing to see the difference. Same has been shown for bass too. Not sure FL waters are fished any more than N-strain waters though.

 

4 hours ago, senile1 said:

 

 

 

I always hear that Floridanus is more difficult to catch but your post begs the question, "What is the scientific evidence?"  The link below provides some information but I would like to read the documents from the original studies to see how they eliminated other variables that could affect the outcome.

 

http://sfrc.ufl.edu/allenlab/Popular Articles/18_DrMikeAllen_Nov_11.pdf

Thanks, Ed. There had to be some work out there that has looked into this. This article is a perfect jumping off point. ?

[greentrout]

Smart Bass? Dumb Bass?

By Ronald F. Dodson, Ph.D.

 

 

  This brings us to the subject at hand - do some bass hit lures more readily than others and where do the Florida strain and the crosses with native Northerns fit into the answer?
   Dr. Gary Garrett is a fishery biologist with the Texas Parks and Wildlife Research Center at Heart of the Hills facility. It is some of his research that has started the discussion and the end results may be changes in the way that stocking Florida bass are used to impact a fishery. He was not ready to buy into the concept of "dumb" or "smart" fish. He felt there was a clear difference in the aggressiveness of the Northern bass (natives) as measured by the differences between the likelihood of these hitting a lure as opposed to Floridas. Some of the data was from controlled environments with limited variables, but one project was in a more natural environment. The project he referred to was under the watchful eyes of Mr. Bobby Farquhar, a District Biologist with TPW in San Angelo.

 

https://www.bassresource.com/fishing/smart_bass.html

 

 

[N Florida Mike]

3 hours ago, Big Mike in Fl said:

 

I didn’t know Florida strain was harder to catch... I never seemed to have a problem! That being said I’ve never fished for northern strain, so I have nothing else to compare it to.  

 

 

^^^ This ^^^

[WRB]

I have 50 years of comparison fishing lakes that were all northern strain largemouth bass prior to being stocked with Floriida strain. Same lakes, same forage base, same eccosystems covers and structure. I can't imagine a better comparison to evaluate the difference between northern and Florids strains plus the intergrades. 

The study I referred to with Larry Botroff did the same with San Diego City lakes over a 20+ year time frame with over a dozen lakes. Lake Hodges was drain and all fish killed prior to refilling and restocking with pure Florids strain LMB without planted trout as a forage base, it is unique in Botroff's study.

The 1st 10 years between 1959 and 1969 the 1st generation Florida's were getting acclimated to thier new eccosystems and very difficult to catch on lures, nearly everyone believed live bait was the best choice. During this time hand poured soft plastic worms that replicated natural colors like Otay Special started to change how bass anglers fished for Florida's, presenting soft plastics like live bait by anchoring and being very quite. Nortethen LMB were caught in these lake using popular lures, the Florida's were tough to catch. 

I would catch a bass and count the lateral line scales to determine if I caught a Florids, it was a big deal back then.

As the FLMB became more popular and more lakes stocked them the same scenario repeated NLMB remain easy to catch FLMB more difficult. Hand poured worm sales exploding as a result and the birth of western finesse bass fishing started all because of FLMB. Big swimbaits were developed to replicate stocked rainbow trout as a result of FLMB.

There is no dought in my mind the NLMB are far more aggressive striking lures then FLMB or their intergrades.

Tom

[CrankFate]

I don’t know. But the northern strain bass here are beyond difficult to catch. They are pampered. They have more food than they can ever eat and are rarely hungry. I see them literally farming bluegills. In my opinion, for all fish, no matter the species or strain, is that hunger and famine are the best thing for fishermen. If the target fish are never hungry and are always surrounded by bait, they are much harder to catch.

[Bluebasser86]

The power plant lake I fish often is stocked with Fl strain largemouth. It has one of the highest densities of lmb in the state for a reservoir, yet they're some of the most difficult fish to catch hands down. 

[Glaucus]

So what I've learned is someone took all the Illinois bass and replaced them with Florida bass this year.

[813basstard]

Pull up to any lake in Polk County( that’s in central Florida)..in the middle of the week. Middle of the day in a thunderstorm..they’ll be 27 boat trailers. 

Going out on a limb and saying that’s why they’re harder to catch. Boot camp. Everyday.

Conditioning. 

This is backed up by zero scientific data but a whole bunch of field data and PBR. 

[.ghoti.]

On 7/3/2019 at 6:25 PM, greentrout said:

Smart Bass? Dumb Bass?

By Ronald F. Dodson, Ph.D.

 

 

  This brings us to the subject at hand - do some bass hit lures more readily than others and where do the Florida strain and the crosses with native Northerns fit into the answer?
   Dr. Gary Garrett is a fishery biologist with the Texas Parks and Wildlife Research Center at Heart of the Hills facility. It is some of his research that has started the discussion and the end results may be changes in the way that stocking Florida bass are used to impact a fishery. He was not ready to buy into the concept of "dumb" or "smart" fish. He felt there was a clear difference in the aggressiveness of the Northern bass (natives) as measured by the differences between the likelihood of these hitting a lure as opposed to Floridas. Some of the data was from controlled environments with limited variables, but one project was in a more natural environment. The project he referred to was under the watchful eyes of Mr. Bobby Farquhar, a District Biologist with TPW in San Angelo.

 

https://www.bassresource.com/fishing/smart_bass.html

 

 

How in the world did a picture of me get stuck in with that article?

[Paul Roberts]

LOL, I thought that was Dr. Ronald F Dobson, Ph.D.. I think Glenn just pops you in when he needs some distinguished looking silver hair in there. :)) Hey, that water looks like it could be one of my prairie lakes out here. Flat land, flat bottom lakes and ponds.

[Team9nine]

Growth and catchability of northern, Florida, and F, hybrid largemouth bass in Texas ponds

North American Journal of Fisheries Management 10 (4), 462-468, 1990

Fish from two genetically identified populations of largemouth bass Micropterus salmoides, representing the northern subspecies M. s. salmoides (N × N) and the Florida subspecies M. s. floridanus (F × F), and their reciprocal F₁ hybrids (F × N and N × F; female represented first) were stocked in 0.04–0.48‐hectare ponds and evaluated for growth, condition, and percent survival during the second year of life. Angling and seine‐capture vulnerability were also examined. The F × N cross was significantly heavier and had a significantly higher relative weight (100 [individual weight/standard weight at length]) than the other crosses at the end of the study. The F × F cross was significantly shorter, weighed less, and was in poorer condition than all other crosses. The N × N cross was generally more susceptible to angling than the F × F cross. The F × F cross was significantly less vulnerable to seine capture than the other three crosses.

 

 

Growth characteristics of the northern and Florida subspecies of largemouth bass and their hybrid, and a comparison of catchability between the subspecies

Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 105 (2), 240-243, 1976

Nine 0.04‐hectare ponds of the Alabama Agricultural Experiment Station were used to evaluate growth differences among northern largemouth bass, Micropterus salmoides salmoides (Lacepede), Florida largemouth bass, Micropterus salmoides floridanus (Lesueur), and their hybrid. Salmoides grew faster than floridanus or the hybrid during the first summer of life. Since the environments were similar the differences in growth rates were attributed to genetic factors. The first year growth, therefore, is not the factor which contributes to the larger adult size of the Florida largemouth bass. Angling records from four other ponds indicated that floridanus was significantly more difficult to catch than salmoides. The difference is probably great enough to significantly affect the catch in heavily fished bodies of water.

 

 

 

Growth comparisons and catchability of three largemouth bass strains

Fisheries 2 (5), 20-25, 1977

Florida largemouth bass, Micropterus salmoides floridanus (Le Sueur), northern largemouth bass, M.s. salmoides (Lacépède), and their F₁hybrid were stocked in a 3.64-hectare pond, and their growth rates and catchability compared. The hybrid and Florida bass were found to achieve the best growth over a 3-yr period, apparently because of genetic influences rather than environmental factors. Differences in catchability were not observed among the three strains of largemouth bass.

 

 

Catchability of northern and Florida largemouth bass in ponds

The Progressive Fish-Culturist 40 (3), 94-97, 1978

Four 0.1-ha ponds were used to evaluate differences in vulnerability to angling between 1- and 2-year-old northern largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides salmoides) and Florida largemouth bass (M. s. floridanus). In a total of 32 man-hours of fishing in two 3-day periods in June and July 1976, anglers captured 91.5% of the northern bass but only 58.3% of the Florida bass. Only a trivial difference was observed in the vulnerability of age I and age II bass of either subspecies. Of the 37 northern bass marked and released during a June fishing interval, 22% were recaptured during a July fishing interval; none of the 10 marked Florida bass were recaptured. Fishing was with plugs, spinners, and live golden shiners (Notemigonus crysoleucas). Of the Florida bass, 52% were caught with plugs, 43% with shiners, and 5% with spinners; of the northern bass, 20% were caught with plugs, 53% with minnows, and 27% with spinners.

[MassYak85]

On 7/3/2019 at 11:26 PM, Glaucus said:

So what I've learned is someone took all the Illinois bass and replaced them with Florida bass this year.

Lol this is how I feel. Super tough year for me here in MA. I haven't even broken 4 lbs this year. Probably my worst season since I started getting into bass fishing.