Connection Knot...VS...Direct Tie Bait Knot...???

[ITO_ZILLION]

I like fishing Braid to a Leader all the time. With all other variables being equal or being of little concern/doubt...Which knot 'should' break first...? My braid to leader knot or my direct tie bait knot...?

 

I use 'FG' knot 100% of the time for my braid to leader knot and I use 'fish-n-fool' knot 100% of the time for my direct tie bait knot. I have tried many knots over the years but I find these to be the ones that work best for me. Plus...These knots were rated highest/strongest when compared to others out there. 

 

I am assuming the FG knot should be stronger and the fish-n-fool should break first...correct...? I really don't like testing knots out of the water, seems kind of pointless. 

[Smalls]

Any time I’ve seen a (correctly tied) FG knot break, it wasn’t actually at the knot, but just below it. I’ve never seen the actual knot break. So my guess is that your direct to bait knot will break first. 

 

Not scientific by any means, but I’m not a scientist. 

[Team9nine]

It will depend on the leader material (nylon, copoly, fluoro), size ratio between the two (braid and leader line diameter), and how well you tied both knots on any given day (always varies no matter how hard you try). "Normally" I would expect the leader knot to break first since they tend to be somewhat weaker overall, but using two of the best knots for each connection makes it more of a tossup given the mentioned variables, IMO. 

[LionHeart]

My connection knot, or leader line itself usually fails before the FG knot.  Not to say that I've never had an FG knot fail,  but it's pretty rare.

[OCdockskipper]

I switched from the FG knot to the Crazy Alberto knot for leaders to get a smaller knot for passing through the guides.  A side benefit has been I have found it to be as strong if not stronger than the FG knot.  If I ever have break offs, they are near the hook and usually from allowing the fluoro to get nicked & not retying.

 

I also like to roll the leader knot in a dollop of superglue to create a slick coating around the knot.  It seems to help protect it as it bounces against the guides on every cast.

[WRB]

If you don't have a leader knot it will never break.

Knots fail for several reasons usually deformed line that is no longer round having flatten spots. The line damage occurs during clinching the knot tight. The second failure point is notches caused from abrasion and the third that applies to all single filament lines is cold flow (deformation from pressure over time) that reduces the line diameter. Impact strength differs for pull strength, impact is loading the force in fractions of a second vs loading the force over seconds of time. Most knots fail when subjected to impact forces.

2 knots will fail 100% more the 1 knot.

If you can't tie a knot perfectly under fishing conditions don't use it.

Tom

 

[Smalls]

23 minutes ago, OCdockskipper said:

I switched from the FG knot to the Crazy Alberto knot for leaders to get a smaller knot for passing through the guides.  A side benefit has been I have found it to be as strong if not stronger than the FG knot.  

Neither of these statements make sense. The FG has been proven to be stronger and smaller than the Alberto knot. 

[OCdockskipper]

11 hours ago, Smalls said:

Neither of these statements make sense. The FG has been proven to be stronger and smaller than the Alberto knot. 

My bad, I was thinking of the double uni, not the FG.  Sorry about that.

 

The Crazy Alberto is shorter than the FG, but slightly thicker due to the double wraps.

[gilkeybr]

I'm usually running a lighter leader on the end of a heavier main line (30lb braid to 12/17lb FC or 10lb braid to 8lb FC).  I have never had a properly tied FG knot break.  Had one come unraveled.  Had one break above the leader (old main line).  All the other failures have been at the lure knot, which is either a Palomar or Improved Clinch depending on how i'm feeling. 

[TOXIC]

13 hours ago, WRB said:

If you don't have a leader knot it will never break.

Knots fail for several reasons usually deformed line that is no longer round having flatten spots. The line damage occurs during clinching the knot tight. The second failure point is notches caused from abrasion and the third that applies to all single filament lines is cold flow (deformation from pressure over time) that reduces the line diameter. Impact strength differs for pull strength, impact is loading the force in fractions of a second vs loading the force over seconds of time. Most knots fail when subjected to impact forces.

2 knots will fail 100% more the 1 knot.

If you can't tie a knot perfectly under fishing conditions don't use it.

Tom

 

Can I get an Amen?  I'm with Tom and Glenn, maybe we are just  and I know there are some advantages to braid/leader combos but nothing outweighs adding failure points to your setup.  That's the same reason I don't like snaps or swivels.  

[ITO_ZILLION]

I like the braid because of the no stretch. I live in CA so I fish a lot of pressured clear water reservoirs. That usually means staying farther away from weary fish in order to be more stealthy and fishing depths that are deep (20ft+). The braid really helps on hooksets when a fish bites 50ft deep vertically on a jig or 50ft out horizontally on a swimbait. That being said...I did do a couple tests last night and this morning.

 

FG knot [10 weave wraps - 4 half hitch locks alternated - 8 turn half hitch reverse uni lock] with 40lb braid to 6ft. long 15lb mono leader. Fish-n-fool knot [4 wraps] to a 3x Owner treble hook. Treble hook attached to a metal iron fence rod. My only failures were at the fish-n-fool knot or a couple millimeters above my FG knot. FG knot prevailed. 

 

[Further North]

On 5/30/2019 at 9:49 PM, OCdockskipper said:

I switched from the FG knot to the Crazy Alberto knot for leaders to get a smaller knot for passing through the guides.

Interesting, I've never seen an Alberto that's smaller than an FG.  The Alberto requires doubling over both lines, the FG does not.

 

On the FG, if you're weaving the braid, and setting the knot right, it's barely thicker than the leader, where the Ablerto is two thicknesses of the leader.

 

The Alberto can be shorter, and works way better with some leader material (Knot-2-Kinky wire comes to mind) but I've never seen one smaller in diameter.

[OCdockskipper]

7 hours ago, Further North said:

Interesting, I've never seen an Alberto that's smaller than an FG...

I goofed, I was thinking of the double uni, not the FG.

 

Smalls caught that error also (see above post).

[J.Vincent]

https://www.saltstrong.com/article_categories/knot-contest/

 

Most extensive resource I’ve found for knot tying and knot strength contests. 

[Further North]

15 hours ago, OCdockskipper said:

I goofed, I was thinking of the double uni, not the FG.

 

Smalls caught that error also (see above post).

Darn...I was kinda hoping you had a trick to tie Alberto's smaller.  It's a great knot and way easier to tie than the FG.

[5/0]

On 5/30/2019 at 7:56 PM, WRB said:

If you don't have a leader knot it will never break.

Knots fail for several reasons usually deformed line that is no longer round having flatten spots. The line damage occurs during clinching the knot tight. The second failure point is notches caused from abrasion and the third that applies to all single filament lines is cold flow (deformation from pressure over time) that reduces the line diameter. Impact strength differs for pull strength, impact is loading the force in fractions of a second vs loading the force over seconds of time. Most knots fail when subjected to impact forces.

2 knots will fail 100% more the 1 knot.

If you can't tie a knot perfectly under fishing conditions don't use it.

Tom

Wow, I've been pestering this forum with posts on leader connection knots, specifically flouro to braid, and I see this! This is not a knock, it's just that the light bulb just came on in my head!

So if I am understanding this correctly, I should not worry about leaders (at least until I can tie the knots correctly) and use the lines that best fit the application on my reels and fill my spools with them.

 

Thanks....Joe