Is a 5' UL rod too small for bank fishing?

[JBT1981]

Hi,

I bought a 5' UL Ugly Stik and paired it with a Pflueger Trion 120 and some 4# mono. I wanted a rig dedicated to bluegill, sunfish and crappie that was easy to maneuver with through trees etc.

On the bank last night, I landed some bluegill, but I also missed a lot. I began thinking that either

1) I just need more practice (I've only been fishing for a few months),

2) My 5' rod may not be long enough to give me decent leverage, or

3) the ultralight action doesn't 'snap' home as fast when I try to set the hook.

 

Do the rod and reel seem like the issue here?

 

 

[LionHeart]

An ultra light is pretty flimsy but then again so are blue gill.  What type of hooks are you using?

 

Question #2 is a myth that keeps getting perpetuated in the fresh water fishing community.  A longer rod gives you less leverage, not more. 

 

Do you mean it feels like you are not moving enough line during hook set?

[MN Fisher]

Up until this year, my UL rig was an old Pflueger 640 on a 5' Ugly Stick and never had an issue with setting the hook. One thing to make sure of - make sure they're quality hooks and touch them up with a sharpener to make sure they're needle-sharp.

[JBT1981]

I'm using some cheap #6 hooks that came in a kit. Not the best hooks, for sure.

I think part of it might be my hookset. I've read that panfish, especially crappie, can have a hook tear right through their lip on a strong set. I initially just tried to 'pull' or swing my rod to the side. I wasn't being gentle but I wasn't trying to slam the hook home. The few times I was aggressive with the set, the hook would come flying out of the water!

[MN Fisher]

VMC or Gamakatsu hooks - worth the money.

 

Don't need much of a sweep to set the hook on panfish. If your rod is pointed at 11 O'Clock when you want to set, just a gentle sweep to 9 O'Clock (or 1 and 3 if you sweep to the right).

[Heartland]

36 minutes ago, LionHeart said:

An ultra light is pretty flimsy but then again so are blue gill.  What type of hooks are you using?

 

Question #2 is a myth that keeps getting perpetuated in the fresh water fishing community.  A longer rod gives you less leverage, not more. 

 

Do you mean it feels like you are not moving enough line during hook set?

Question 2 depends a lot on where you believe the fulcrum is.  Some think the hand is the fulcrum, others believe it is the part of the rod that goes from action to power.  Not an engineer so I can't swear to either.  I think the best example that I can think of off hand is that you do not often see saltwater sport fisherman fishing tuna or marlin on a 5ft rod.

 

[LionHeart]

12 minutes ago, Heartland said:

Question 2 depends a lot on where you believe the fulcrum is.  Some think the hand is the fulcrum, others believe it is the part of the rod that goes from action to power.  Not an engineer so I can't swear to either.  I think the best example that I can think of off hand is that you do not often see saltwater sport fisherman fishing tuna or marlin on a 5ft rod.

 

Nah man, it isn't a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact.  A longer rod gives a greater moment (pulling force) to the fish.

 

Think of it like a pry bar.

[WRB]

Just reel and lift the rod, rod hook sets are not needed. Get a diamond hook sharpening hone for a few dollars and sharpen the bait holder hooks you have.

What are you using for bait?

Tom

[JBT1981]

2 minutes ago, WRB said:

Just reel and lift the rod, rod hook sets are not needed. Get a diamond hook sharpening hone for a few dollars and sharpen the bait holder hooks you have.

What are you using for bait?

Tom

Gulp! Minnows, both 1" and 2.5". They seem to love them!

[NYWayfarer]

I have caught LMB in the 2lb range on 4# test mono using a size 6 Eagle Claw Aberdeen hook meant for panfish. 

 

It’s all in playing the fish until you get him to shore. Using drag, keeping constant tension and fighting the urge to horse the fish in and you can land almost any fish. 

 

I watch Professional and YouTube anglers waterski a fish on the surface and think I know why they do it but where is the fun. 

 

Landing a big fish on light tackle is one of life’s great joys.

[WRB]

Wait a longer until the fish move off with the bait then reel and lift, it's a timing issue.

The 4" pocket diamond hook hone will sharpen any hook and last until to lose it, about $2.50-$3 at BPS or wherever.

Tom

[Heartland]

23 minutes ago, LionHeart said:

Nah man, it isn't a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact.  A longer rod gives a greater moment (pulling force) to the fish.

 

Think of it like a pry bar.

Like I said originally it depends on where you believe the fulcrum is.   If it is a matter of fact, then please support it. Sorry OP, we are off topic in your thread.  My last reply on this subject.

[greentrout]

i don't fish ultralight from the bank when lily pads surround the pond ... go to a short rod 5'6"or 5'10" at least ... med. action sometimes med. heavy ... 

 

good fishing ...

 

 

 

[Heartland]

I prefer a rod of a little longer length.  I have many from 5.5 to 7.0.   Maybe a two piece rod would work in your particular situation.

[JBT1981]

So it seems that (at least after a quick Google search anyway) that most people prefer a 6'+ fishing rod, I have to wonder what uses there are for a 5' UL rod? Ice fishing? 

I thought it would be easier to maneuver along banks with trees and brush, but that seems to be a small gain for a lot of bigger losses...

[ClintIsKING]

I have a UL 5ft rod I use for trout fishing in small streams and I don't really set the hook per say more of a sweeping motion. Maybe give it an extra second or two to ensure they have the bait. From my experience with bluegill/panfish they tend to hold onto the end of the bait a lot of the "hits" versus actually swallowing it. 

[LionHeart]

3 hours ago, Heartland said:

Like I said originally it depends on where you believe the fulcrum is.   If it is a matter of fact, then please support it. Sorry OP, we are off topic in your thread.  My last reply on this subject.

That's just the thing.  The fulcrum is where it is.  Where someone believes it is, is irrelevant.

 

Support?  Arm×Weight=Moment

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

5 hours ago, Heartland said:

Like I said originally it depends on where you believe the fulcrum is.   If it is a matter of fact, then please support it. Sorry OP, we are off topic in your thread.  My last reply on this subject.

Shovel half a driveway with a 12" snowfall with a 10 foot shovel(good luck) and other half with a 4 foot shovel.

A shovel is a 3rd class lever just as a fishing rod is a 3rd class lever. The shorter the lever the more power you have.

 

http://www.softschools.com/examples/simple_machines/class_three_lever_examples/513/

[Heartland]

Lots of "techie" stuff follows...........

Answer 1 : The longer the rod the more leverage advantage the fish has & the less line tension the angler can generate for the same effort.

Answer 2 : Depends on where the angler is holding that rod ( but not practical )

As usual our simple fishing rod has a complex dynamic.
A fishing rod is not a classical lever , as they are rigid.
A fishing rod is a flexible lever.
there are 3 classes of levers.

When casting a rod it acts as a reverse Class1 lever.
- the effort is applied on the short end of the lever (the butt) & the top hand acts as the fulcrum ( yes its moving too & applying some effort , but it results in a class 1 lever action).

When fighting a fish, pulling on a rod it acts as a Class 3 lever.
- the butt of the rod acts as the fulcrum and the effort is applied at the foregrip with the "load" being line tension at the tip .

levers generate torque at the fulcrum and are explained as a 
torque-leverage-force equation.
With a rigid lever ( rod) the equation is well understood.
load x load to fulcrum distance = effort x effort to fulcrum distance.
irrespective of the class of lever the equation holds true.
- where the load & effort are not perpendicular to the rigid lever their effective force is reduced by the angle they are applied at from the perpendicular.
- the effective force at an angle is called a vectored force.

forces in a fishing rod as a lever are all vectored forces :-
a) because the rod is a flexible lever 
&
b) because none of the forces in practice are applied perpendicular to the "effective" lever.

as a fishing rod is flexible its leverage is not explained by the classical rigid lever situation, but it uses the same equations & physics/engineering.

Sooooo....... pulling on a rod:-
* its fulcrum is the rod butt in a fighting belt.
* the effective lever & length is the STRAIGHT line from the deflected tip to the butt.
* the effective load is line tension on the tip at the angle the line is relative to the effective lever ( this is a critical concept to understand in how a rod works & what the effort efficiency of different types of rods is ).
effective load leverage = line tension ( drag setting etc) x Cosine of the difference between the actual line angle to perpendicular to the EFFECTIVE load lever X the length of the EFFECTIVE load lever.
* the effective effort is angler input at the foregrip at the angle of the angler's forearm.
* the EFFECTIVE lever is the straightline from the hand on the rod at the foregrip to the butt.
the effective effort leverage = angler effort x cosine of the angle between the forearm & the perpendicular to the EFFECTIVE effort lever x the length of the EFFECTIVE effort lever

In equilibrium where the rod is deflected but not moving up or down
load leverage = effort leverage...........and this holds true irrespective of the angle the rod is being held at................as its the angles of load & effort to the EFFECTIVE levers that change with rod orientation & cause equilibrium in leverage.
the Equilibrium is resolved as a torque equation at the fulcrum as the EFFECTIVE load lever & EFFECTIVE effort lever are in different horizontal planes ( this is different to a classdical rigid lever , where both are in the same plane ).

Sooooo............ the load leverage in a rod is the tip to butt deflected length , which is always longer than the effort leverage , which is foregrip to butt deflected length so a longer rod is less effort efficient than a shorter rod.

Ha Ha I posted the equations & diagrams for this quite some time back.
If anyone is seriously interested in them I can post them again in this thread.

Now you can start to see explanations of the different effort efficiency of different rod actions.
Lets take 2 types :-
A parabolic rod & a fast taper rod of equal length & equal line class.
- a fast taper rod always has a longer EFFECTIVE lever length.
- A fast taper rod always has a smaller angle between line angle at the tip & the perpendicular to the EFFECTIVE lever...............therefore the effective load leverage is always higher.
- this means for equal angler effort the equilibrium load ( line tension ) is lower for a fast taper rod than for a parabolic rod.

The key element here is that the parabolic rod deflects further & decreases
the angle from the EFFECTIVE lever and the line............this increases the line tension that results from the same angler effort.

Wonderful thing Physics when you understand it & how to use it in engineering to your advantage.
Its complex tho & you need to apply the right physics for the particular application.
its easy to assume the wrong physics for the application & fool yourself.

It took me more than a decade of extensive research to establish the truth of how a fishing rod works as a flexible lever & what the applicable physics for them was.
Extensive testing (with rigorous 3-way validation) has developed an explanation & predictive formula which is accurate to 2% .............this is equivalent to measurement errors, not errors in the physics formulae.

BTW..............once you come to grips with the concept of EFFECTIVE levers in a deflected rod ............the physics is basically the same as in a 'pinch' bar with an angled foot, where the load & effort are not in the same horizontal plane .........despite the lever being rigid in the case of such a 'pinch' bar.
`

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

Your conclusion proves you wrong. Cant compare parabolic to fast thats apples to oranges need to compare fast to fast parabolic to parabolic and still a person using a 4' short parabolic rod will lift a 10 pound weight easier than a 10' parabolic rod all other features being equal. 

[Heartland]

Not my explanation, it was borrowed from another fishing forum where a similar question was asked.   I think the conclusion was reached long before the comparison of parabolic and fast action rods.  " A longer rod is less effort efficient than a shorter rod"    I believe the example was to just demonstrate how the action of the rod can change the equation based on the flex in the rod and the shortening of the effective load lever.

[Vilas15]

My 5' ultralight did fine with some 13" crappies this weekend. Just make sure your hooks are sharp and that you reel up slack in the line then just keep reeling and give it a light hookset. A longer rod will result in less force applied to the hook but will be applied over a larger distance for a more consistent pressure. If youre using a bobber a longer rod will help take up the slack so you can react faster. Thats why walleye slip bobber rods are 7'6" or 8'.

[WRB]

You all are barking up the wrong tree regarding Archimdedes fulcrum when discussing flexible fishing rods. Consider a very parabolic fly rod vs a ridgid steel rod, the forces are very different and non linear.

The op's 5' UL is very flexible and leverage power isn't an issue with pan fish, it's all about transportation through terrian to access fishing areas. There are some good telescoping rods and crappie poles as an option. What the op has is good for what he is doing. Also take a look at pan fish Thill slipe bobbers with bobber stops allowing the bobber to be next to the lure to cast and slides up to the stop set at whatever depth is needed, very popular with bank trout angler using micro jig in deeper water with short rods.

Just reel to hook set and lift the rod when it's bent. Reels take up line faster then a long rod can.

Tom

 

 

[JBT1981]

On 5/26/2019 at 5:36 PM, WRB said:

Just reel and lift the rod, rod hook sets are not needed. Get a diamond hook sharpening hone for a few dollars and sharpen the bait holder hooks you have.

What are you using for bait?

Tom

Gulp! Minnows, both 1" and 2.5". They seem to love them!

[WRB]

2.5" maybe too much for bluegill but crappie can engulf them ok.

Tom