1987 Johnson 110 V4 just quit charging battery??

[Breakwater Bouy]

Well, I ran this outboard last weekend to test and investigate any issues before taking her out for my first lake test this weekend.

I didn't discover any problems with it at that time, except the tach didn't work and I attribute this to it being the original to the boat...so I was ready to go for my lake test... Well, some things came up and I didn't make it to the lake this week .

 

I decides to start up the outboard again today in anticipation for the lake test next weekend and she fired right up same as last time, however when I went to check the battery voltage this time.. it was 12.8 (same as last week) at start up and while the engine was running at idle and up to the fastest rpm I could out of the engine with the fast idle lever, the battery voltage never changed. I ran the engine for about 35 minutes throttling up and down only using the fast idle lever and additional battery voltage coming from the charging system of the outboard. I did remove the battery cables while the engine was running and it stayed running until i hooked cables back up

 

I have put off my lake testing until I can resolver this issue. I would appreciate any advice and guidance throughout this troubleshooting.

 

I do have an original Johnson/Evinrude service manual 88-110 and 150/175 that I use, but when it comes to the electrical system... it's not my specialty

 

I inserted a couple of images of the outboard (The newer wiring I did a while back and the battery was charging after that..the other pic is of me testing the outboard a week ago and everything was working properly, except for the tach)

 

 

  

 

 

[Way2slow]

Sounds like your motor is about to get a little more expensive. 

Tach not working, the signal for the tach comes from the rectifier/regulator.

Not charging battery, that's controlled by the rectifier/regulator.

However, before jumping in and saying the rectifier/regulator is your problem, the stator supplies the voltage to the rectifier/regulator so you have to verify stator is doing it's job, before replacing the rec/reg.

Neither of these are parts you just want to jump up and buy without trouble shooting both.  Plus it possible both might be bad.  Then you will cry.  Also, if you have to take it to the shop for troubleshooting and repair, you are really going to cry.

 You will see what I'm talking about when you start checking prices and availability.  If you motor has power tilt and trim, most likely the part number for the rec/reg is 0395391. 

You need to check the stator voltage going into it first.

The main causes of them failing is running a bad battery, jumping the motor off with jump cables or connecting the battery cable with the switch on. 

OMC's do not run a very robust charging system so when running a weak/bad battery, the charging system has to work overtime to try and charge it, causing it to overheat and fail.  NEVER think the charging will charge a weak battery, and if battery condition is questionable, replace it.  That's a lot cheaper than replacing the parts it damages.

 

I guess I could be a nice guy and say if you want to haul it a 100 miles to 25 miles southeast of Macon, I could check it for you, seeing how you live in Fayetteville and really get stuck trying to troubleshoot it yourself.  

[Breakwater Bouy]

12 minutes ago, Way2slow said:

Sounds like your motor is about to get a little more expensive.Well I have checked prices of those parts and agree with ya on that! 

Tach not working, the signal for the tach comes from the rectifier/regulator.

Not charging battery, that's controlled by the rectifier/regulator.I suspected so.

However, before jumping in and saying the rectifier/regulator is your problem, the stator supplies the voltage to the rectifier/regulator so you have to verify stator is doing it's job, before replacing the rec/reg.I will attempt to do so when I have the time to really concentrate on this troubleshooting

Neither of these are parts you just want to jump up and buy without trouble shooting both.  Plus it possible both might be bad. I agree with you and I will not know with certaintyntil I attempt the testing  Then you will cry.I WILL DO AN UGLY CRY THAT WILL SCARE MY WIFE  Also, if you have to take it to the shop for troubleshooting and repair, you are really going to cry.I WILL DO A DOUBLE UGLY CRY THAT WILL DOUBLE SCARE MY WIFE

 You will see what I'm talking about when you start checking prices and availability.  If you motor has power tilt and trim, YES it has T&T most likely the part number for the rec/reg is 0395391. Thanks for the part # 

You need to check the stator voltage going into it first.I will check the testing  procedure on that

The main causes of them failing is running a bad battery, jumping the motor off with jump cables or connecting the battery cable with the switch on.The battery is good strong and healthy, however i did put it on charge last week after leaving the main power switch on ... 

OMC's do not run a very robust charging system so when running a weak/bad battery, the charging system has to work overtime to try and charge it, causing it to overheat and fail.  NEVER think the charging will charge a weak battery, and if battery condition is questionable, replace it.  That's a lot cheaper than replacing the parts it damages.I agree and I tell some of my customers the same thing 

 

I guess I could be a nice guy and say if you want to haul it a 100 miles to 25 miles southeast of Macon, I could check it for you, seeing how you live in Fayetteville and really get stuck trying to troubleshoot it yourself.  Now that's a really, really nice offer  I just  may take you up on that if I really need to. I have been to Middle Ga for a structural framing inspector class when I was a Fayette County Building Inspector..I served them for 16 yrs and now I'm back to building semi custom homes.... which I enjoy a lot better 

thanks a lot for your input I appreciate it!

[WRB]

I am impressed with the support Keith Jones gives BR members, he always goes out of his way to help members. 

Tom

[Way2slow]

Don't mind doing it as long as the person seems to appreciate it.  It's those that make a post asking for help and never respond back that bothers me. 

 

I would like to advise people about doing something the OP said he did in his first post that is a big NO, NO, even with your automobiles.  Never disconnect or connect the battery cable with the key switch and especially with the engine running.  That can create and arc of several hundreds volts and can blow the rectifier/regulator in a cars alternator or in a boat motors charging system.  It can also damage the CPU/ECM/Power Pack in the car or boat motor.

That's an old timers test people did with cars that had generators and people would do that to see if the motor would stay running.  That was considered a quick check to see if the generator was charging or not.  Generators didn't run the solid state devices the modern charging systems run so it didn't bother them.  When they went to alternators with sold state rectifiers and regulators, that is not a very smart test.  Plus, an alternator has to have the exciter voltage to work and when you disconnect the battery, you can take away the exciter voltage, so that may not work anyway.

Using a voltmeter is the best and safest way to see if you charging system is working.

 

Also, OMC outboards run a CDI ignition system, so they don't need a battery to run.  The battery is only needed to spin the starter.  If you had a way to spin the motor over, you don't even need a battery connected to it to run.  Once it is running, the only way you can shut it down is cutting off the air or fuel supply, pulling off plug wires or grounding out the ignition system (which is what the key switch does).  The key switch opens and closes a ground in the power pack through a black/yellow wire.  If that black/yellow wire is not grounded it does not shut off, and if it is grounded, it's not starting.

[Breakwater Bouy]

17 hours ago, WRB said:

I am impressed with the support Keith Jones gives BR members, he always goes out of his way to help members. 

Tom

I agree with you on that! most times expert advise is not freely given-- and those that are fortunate to receive it-- should should really appreciate it. I know I always do

 

if anyone needs and any advice on current Building Codes, county inspections, building homes, Plans ect Don't hesitate to PM me any time with questions and I will help in any way I can

[Breakwater Bouy]

12 hours ago, Way2slow said:

Don't mind doing it as long as the person seems to appreciate it.  It's those that make a post asking for help and never respond back that bothers me. I agree with you on that

 

I would like to advise people about doing something the OP said he did in his first post that is a big NO, NO, even with your automobiles.  Never disconnect or connect the battery cable with the key switch and especially with the engine running.  That can create and arc of several hundreds volts and can blow the rectifier/regulator in a cars alternator or in a boat motors charging system.I agree with you on that--I have built many hot rods engines, and just about any other small engine and I know that is a "BIG NO NO" except for this one time when I had a VW with a GEN and disconnect from the battery-- can't remember why--I was young then  It can also damage the CPU/ECM/Power Pack in the car or boat motor. I didn't know that disconnecting the battery from that outboard would and could cause the problems you have mentioned-- my thinking was if I disconnect the battery terminals and the outboard would still run the issue could be in the regulator, however I'm not a outboard mechanic and make mistakes

That's an old timers test people did with cars that had generators and people would do that to see if the motor would stay running.  That was considered a quick check to see if the generator was charging or not. I was told to disconnect the battery from the time I was 13 and see if the engine would stay running if I thought I had a battery problem. I soon found once I started getting into heavy back yard mechanics that that would cause more issues to diagnosis Generators didn't run the solid state devices the modern charging systems run so it didn't bother them.  When they went to alternators with sold state rectifiers and regulators, that is not a very smart test.  Plus, an alternator has to have the exciter voltage to work and when you disconnect the battery, you can take away the exciter voltage, so that may not work anyway.

Using a voltmeter is the best and safest way to see if you charging system is working.Yes I agree and use my often for such troubleshooting ect

 

Also, OMC outboards run a CDI ignition system, so they don't need a battery to run.  The battery is only needed to spin the starter.  If you had a way to spin the motor over, you don't even need a battery connected to it to run.  Once it is running, the only way you can shut it down is cutting off the air or fuel supply, pulling off plug wires or grounding out the ignition system (which is what the key switch does).  The key switch opens and closes a ground in the power pack through a black/yellow wire.  If that black/yellow wire is not grounded it does not shut off, and if it is grounded, it's not starting. so since the electrical charging system is self producing in this outboard-- I wonder if I damaged the CDI on this one...I'm thinking not, however i'm unsure at thos point

Thank you for all your info and as always I really do appreciate it!

[Way2slow]

The stator does several things, charging the battery is only part of it and those coils are separate.  There are two other coils in the stator that provide the initial exciter voltage to the power pack.  Depending on the model, there is also a coil for the quick start function.  So, it's possible to fry the charging coils on the stator and not do anything to those others.  It's also possible for the others to fail and not do anything to the charging system.  However, the coils are usually not replaceable independently, so not matter which fails, you have to buy the whole stator. 

Usually if the charging coils on the stator are fried, it's very visible.  They are usually a deep red, copper color, and turn black and burnt looking when over heated. 

If you decide you need to look at the stator, the nut is held on with about 130# of torque.  A harmonic balance puller will usually bolt onto the flywheel and break it loose, (as long as it's a good one and not one of those Harbor Freight one).  Just be careful with the bolt length you use, too long and they can going through the flywheel and into parts under it you really don't want to screw up.  You should not have to pull the flywheel just to trouble shoot the problem though.

[Breakwater Bouy]

6 minutes ago, Way2slow said:

The stator does several things, charging the battery is only part of it and those coils are separate.  There are two other coils in the stator that provide the initial exciter voltage to the power pack.  Depending on the model, there is also a coil for the quick start function.  So, it's possible to fry the charging coils on the stator and not do anything to those others.  It's also possible for the others to fail and not do anything to the charging system.  However, the coils are usually not replaceable independently, so not matter which fails, you have to buy the whole stator. 

Usually if the charging coils on the stator are fried, it's very visible.  They are usually a deep red, copper color, and turn black and burnt looking when over heated. 

If you decide you need to look at the stator, the nut is held on with about 130# of torque.  A harmonic balance puller will usually bolt onto the flywheel and break it loose, (as long as it's a good one and not one of those Harbor Freight one).  Just be careful with the bolt length you use, too long and they can going through the flywheel and into parts under it you really don't want to screw up.  You should not have to pull the flywheel just to trouble shoot the problem though.

Good info  and I will start with the basics first, check all connections for any looseness, check all grounds, check for any wire corrosion, check grounds, check load test the battery and then start testing the move forward from there. I will do a visual of all charging components and look for the signs that you posted about. I will then test the components before removal..I just have to read a bit more of my shop manual on the testing of each component---not my specialty--but I have pushed through electrical issues before, however I know my limits and when to ask for help.

 

I do have som pretty hefty flywheel pullers and they are old-- passed down from my Dad

 

just FYT the engine serial number is      J110TLCUR

[Breakwater Bouy]

Well, I finally got to troubleshoot the charging system on my outboard today (yesterday was yard work:).

 

My first phase of troubleshooting started with disconnecting all the battery terminals from the battery. I then started locating all my engine grounds.  I then removed each bolt and ring connectors and used a dremel tool with wire wheel, to removed all the corrosion from the ring connectors (both sides), block boss and bolts. I did this for all the grounding points on the engine block.

 

My second phase of troubleshooting started with removing all the wiring harness wire ties (all ring terminals connected at this point to respective component) and getting the old electrical tape removed that was wrapped by the PO, cleaned all the sticky off the wires. I then separated all the wires and checked the insulation along the length of each wire looking for any dry rotted insulation, nicks in the insulation that could cause a short and found none.

 

My third phase of troubleshooting started with checking all the electrical components ring terminal (that have those) for any signs of looseness and corrosion. I went first to the electrical terminal block and started at the top removing the ring terminal from the component wires, and using wire wheel to clean the ring terminals and mounting plate. I did this for each terminal and also check for any looseness of the wire connected to the ring terminals. I then reconnected all them.

 

My forth phase of troubleshooting  started with the starter solenoid. I removed the first locking nut (it was snug but over tighten) and removed the wire ring terminals and checked for any corrosion on the ring terminals and there was some, so I wire brushed it off of both sides and checked the ring connectors for looseness and the were all tight.

I then started to remove the 2nd locking nut and it was loose...and there were 2 wire ring connectors under that locking nut-  The 1st ring terminal being Bat + and the 2nd ring terminal came from the Rectifier/Regulator (I thought maybe I just found my charging issue--keeping fingers crossed!) so I check them both for corrosion and wire brushed them off and the ring terminals were tight to the wires. I then reconnected all of them

 

My fifth phase of troubleshooting started with taking a voltage reading on the battery and it was @ 12.78 V. I then reconnecting the battery cables to the battery terminal with nuts (not wing nuts) . I then put my plug in the container that I use to test run the outboard in and filled the container with water. I went to the fuel line primer bulb and pushed fuel into the carbs until the primer bulb was firm. I went to connect the kill clamp inserted  the key into the switch and turned it to start the engine...she fired right up and was pumping water strongly. I then took a reading of the battery Voltage and it was at 12.78 so I let the engine run for 5 minutes at about 1500 rpms (my rpm gauge doesn't work so I went by ear on that) I checked the battery voltage again for the 2nd time engine running and to my surprise (my fingers were crossed) and I got 13.1 V  I then continued to let the engine run for another 10m and rechecked the battery voltage for the 3rd time and I got 13.88   Wow I think I fixed it !!!!?? 

 

 

Now I believe the charging system is fixed at the moment and the overheating issue I had a while back is fixed..I ran the engine at idle today for a total of 40m and no issues with battery voltage or overheating.

 

I feel now some what confident that I'm ready to go for a lake test...but before I do I will put new spark plugs in and run the engine a few times more.

 

I do appreciate all the input and advice from you folks.. I will update this thread again if things don't work out, however I'm thinking positive on this one

[Way2slow]

to check the tach, check the voltage on the grey wire, with the negative meter lead connected to battery negative with the engine running.  I seems like it should be 10-12 volts.  if the voltage is low, find the grey wire coming out of the rec/reg and check it there.   Check it on AC and DC, I can't remember now of the top of my head which it is.  Might want to check the ground and 12VDC to battery while you are checking.

[Breakwater Bouy]

18 hours ago, Way2slow said:

to check the tach, check the voltage on the grey wire, with the negative meter lead connected to battery negative with the engine running.  I seems like it should be 10-12 volts.  if the voltage is low, find the grey wire coming out of the rec/reg and check it there.   Check it on AC and DC, I can't remember now of the top of my head which it is.  Might want to check the ground and 12VDC to battery while you are checking.

yes sir, I will check that out this weekend and update this thread of my findings..

Thanks for the troubleshooting procedure on the tach 

[Breakwater Bouy]

I may and it's just possible I will have to sell this boat---Doctor appointment yesterday was somewhat depressing. I will at lease check out the other item Way2slow mentioned and get her out on the water for a test..then I will decide

[Way2slow]

Don't get too quick on what doctors tell you.  About 15 years ago I had everything in place to build me a nice 40x60 building for a shop, storage and small guest apartment.  Two days before I was to pick up the money, doctor told me my biopsy test came back positive for prostate cancer.  We'll with that facing me, I backed out of building my dream building.  Six months later they did another biopsy and said it was inconclusive.  A year later, same thing.  It was two years later when they finally said the first test was wrong, I did not have prostate cancer.  By then, other things were going on that I didn't have the time to put into building my building.  15 years later, I still don't have a building and won't have because when I retired in 2011, that put a big dent in my free spending money. 

[Breakwater Bouy]

22 hours ago, Way2slow said:

Don't get too quick on what doctors tell you.  About 15 years ago I had everything in place to build me a nice 40x60 building for a shop, storage and small guest apartment.  Two days before I was to pick up the money, doctor told me my biopsy test came back positive for prostate cancer.  We'll with that facing me, I backed out of building my dream building.  Six months later they did another biopsy and said it was inconclusive.  A year later, same thing.  It was two years later when they finally said the first test was wrong, I did not have prostate cancer.  By then, other things were going on that I didn't have the time to put into building my building.  15 years later, I still don't have a building and won't have because when I retired in 2011, that put a big dent in my free spending money. 

I know how you feel when you got the results of your first testing..and the emotional stresses it brings on you and the family including the financial burdens that have to be dealt with,  however once the testing turns out to to be inconclusive no one repairs you for how to feel after that either but I'm sure that you felt on top of the world at that point...I'm not sure anyone could prepare anyone with news of that nature.

 

I will say that your one of the lucky ones and my Dad was not...but we are all still above the dirt and live each day to the fullest because we're not promised tomorrow...we just have faith that it will come!

 

Thanks for sharing your story with me and it brings some comfort to me in more ways than one

[Breakwater Bouy]

now, today I decided to change the spark plug on the outboard this evening after I got homw from work to take my stress level down a few notches  

 

I will post the pics of the old ones I pulled out and if someone can possible evaluate them I would appreciate it!

 

They appear to be a bit oily on the threads and of course a bit of black wet fouling on the electrode, leads me to believe that I'm getting too much oil possible through the carba? I do get a lot of smoke once started up cold...it's been a long time since I have work on a 2 stroke outboard engine

 

These photos are not the best clarity. I'M trying to learn my new iphone after using Android for 15 yer

 

[Breakwater Bouy]

lets see if these pics are better 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Way2slow]

Once one idles for a few minutes, it wipes anything you might be able to read off the plugs. 

To get a proper reading of the plugs, you need to run it WOT (Wide Open Throttle), down the lake of course, for about five minutes.  Then, while still holding it wide open, switch the key off.  Then pull the plugs out and look at them. About eh color of a brown paper bag or a little lighter is about right  Without running EGT probes to read the exhaust temps, when they start getting white, it's too close to melt down. 

Now, with new plugs, it's hard to get a good reading on them.  Those you have will give you the best, true indication. 

It's usually better to do this while you are heading toward the ramp or some place you can get out of the boat and get to the back.  You can take the cover off, trim the motor all the way up and do it that way, just have a spare plug and wrench to put it in with.  I know of more than one that has gone to the bottom of the lake leaning over the motor.

When you do buy a new set, get Champion.

If you are still running the oil injection, I might be a little rich but a two stroke naturally idles rich. and have to be run a little rich at lower rpm.  If not, it will lean spit and cough, and cut off sometimes.  Also, a slightly rich motors makes more torque.  If you adjust carbs so it idles smooth, it will probably bog or be slow to come to get on plane.

[Breakwater Bouy]

19 hours ago, Way2slow said:

Once one idles for a few minutes, it wipes anything you might be able to read off the plugs. 

To get a proper reading of the plugs, you need to run it WOT (Wide Open Throttle), down the lake of course, for about five minutes.  Then, while still holding it wide open, switch the key off.  Then pull the plugs out and look at them. About eh color of a brown paper bag or a little lighter is about right  Without running EGT probes to read the exhaust temps, when they start getting white, it's too close to melt down. 

Now, with new plugs, it's hard to get a good reading on them.  Those you have will give you the best, true indication. 

It's usually better to do this while you are heading toward the ramp or some place you can get out of the boat and get to the back.  You can take the cover off, trim the motor all the way up and do it that way, just have a spare plug and wrench to put it in with.  I know of more than one that has gone to the bottom of the lake leaning over the motor.

When you do buy a new set, get Champion.

If you are still running the oil injection, I might be a little rich but a two stroke naturally idles rich. and have to be run a little rich at lower rpm.  If not, it will lean spit and cough, and cut off sometimes.  Also, a slightly rich motors makes more torque.  If you adjust carbs so it idles smooth, it will probably bog or be slow to come to get on plane.

Mr Jones sir 

I will do the testing as you describe and I'm also going to bring my huge carry on tool box just in case I need to do some unforeseen maintenance on the engine while I'm out testing I had plans again to go to Lake Jackson tomorrow, however it's gonna be storming here and I'll just have to wait for another day...but one day I will finally get it wet

[Way2slow]

I've never been on Jackson but one time and that was to help a friend of my that has a shop there to trouble shoot a strange  problem he was having with a 200hp Johnson.   From what I remember, to run WOT for five minutes, you are gonna be doing a big circle

[Breakwater Bouy]

On 5/3/2019 at 7:38 PM, Way2slow said:

I've never been on Jackson but one time and that was to help a friend of my that has a shop there to trouble shoot a strange  problem he was having with a 200hp Johnson.   From what I remember, to run WOT for five minutes, you are gonna be doing a big circle

Well, I took next week off and I'm going to the lake next Monday:) darn it

[Breakwater Bouy]

Well, I thought I would update this thread with the outcome of my lake test this past Monday 5/13/19

 

The trailer tows the boat nicely and the bearing were good. We (my wife and I) got to the lake at about 11:30 am ish and got the boat launched. I flooded the carbs while trying to start the outboard on the lake for the first time(Nervous I Was)..after clearing out the excess fuel she fired up!, so I pushed off from the dock put it in Forward and and slowly got out of the no wake zone. 

 

With the engine running good and no warning buzzards of any type sounding off...I said to my wife "Hold On! it's all or nothing..so I hammered down on the control throttle..the bow went up in the air and with a few seconds she was on plane. I started to trim the engine to maximum position however the tiny temporary trim switch I have (that's not mounted into the control throttle) was a bit confusing to use. I had to look at the engine to see which way was trim Up and Down...well I finally got the the hang of it for the 30-40 minutes we were on the water. The outboard produced good power, no misfiring, no overheating, no warning buzzards and with a 15-20 mph headwind gust I managed to get 40-42 on the mph gauge and she ran good and boat road really will across the whitecaps.

 

I had 2 issues..(1)- the outboard wants to turn the bow to the right (I believe is a torque tab adjustment) (2)- needs the correct trim switch that mounts into the control throttle. 

 

 

Well, given that information about my test day...my wife and I have decided to sell the boat...she really don't like it much and I need to respect her wishes(We decided before I purchased the boat that if she don't feel conformable in it for any reason...we would sale it).. .I 'm hoping someone who buys this boat would fall in love with it and take good care of it.  I do have it advertised for sale, but for a buyer I will have to test it in a tank at home

 

I would like to thank y'all for all the help and info that has been freely offered

 

pics of that test day 5/13/19

 

 

 

 

 

[Way2slow]

The pull to the right was probably because you were going to slow or didn't have the motor trim out right.

Once you get up on plane and at a reasonable speed so the boat has some bow lift and not riding stern heavy in the water, start bumping the trim up until the boat feels more like it's sliding along on the water and not plowing through it. 

If the speed is too slow where it's riding stern heavy, the motor is having to work harder and no amount of torque tab adjustment is going to help.  

When the boat is up on the pad, skimming along and the spray coming out the sides is behind the drivers seat then you should be able to get neutral steering.  If you end up trimming it out to where you hear the motor change pitch, the tach, (if you got it working) increases but the speed doesn't (these are signs of cavitation and trimmed out too far) and the steering still has torque, then you might need to adjust trim tab.

[Breakwater Bouy]

On 5/16/2019 at 9:51 PM, Way2slow said:

The pull to the right was probably because you were going to slow or didn't have the motor trim out right.

Once you get up on plane and at a reasonable speed so the boat has some bow lift and not riding stern heavy in the water, start bumping the trim up until the boat feels more like it's sliding along on the water and not plowing through it. 

If the speed is too slow where it's riding stern heavy, the motor is having to work harder and no amount of torque tab adjustment is going to help.  

When the boat is up on the pad, skimming along and the spray coming out the sides is behind the drivers seat then you should be able to get neutral steering.  If you end up trimming it out to where you hear the motor change pitch, the tach, (if you got it working) increases but the speed doesn't (these are signs of cavitation and trimmed out too far) and the steering still has torque, then you might need to adjust trim tab.

I appreciate the sound advice sir and I would check that out but I have to sell the boat. I had an agreement with the wife that if she didn't like the boat I would sell it and find something else we can enjoy together...we can still fish from the banks though