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[MN Fisher]

7 minutes ago, Choporoz said:

I've got a pretty solid libertarian bent.  So, I don't necessarily mind adults who chose not to wear a PFD after 'honestly' considering the risks. 

I'm fairly libertarian as well, but when you consider the social costs it's more than just personal choice. I mean they have seatbelt laws now and you can get fined for not wearing one..isn't that interfering with personal choice?

 

I wouldn't be against a PFD law long as it was thought out...wearing a PFD when you're on a 50' dinner cruiser (we have those on Minnetonka) is a bit much, but otherwise I'd be for it.

[Choporoz]

5 minutes ago, MN Fisher said:

I mean they have seatbelt laws now and you can get fined for not wearing one..isn't that interfering with personal choice?

Absolutely.  I'd have no problem leaving that requirement to the insurance companies to mandate, if they chose. 

[PAbasser927]

In my state (PA) it is only a requirement to have a PFD in the vessel.  The amount of kayak fishermen I see with their PFD on the deck still amazes me.  

 

Outside of the obvious safety benefits, it seems foolish to me (from a fishing standpoint) to have a PFD taking up space on the deck.  I have spent so much time figuring out how to maximize working space in the yak that even a pair of pliers has its proper place.  Having a PFD to store some of my gear on my person has been a huge win in space management for me.

[MN Fisher]

In regards to the child in the pics above - there is a Federal regulation that exists when no state regulation is in force.

 

"33 CFR 175.15(c) provides that no person may operate a recreational vessel underway with any child under 13 years old aboard unless each such child is either wearing an appropriate PFD approved by the Coast Guard or below decks or in an enclosed cabin. If the child is observed above deck without a PFD, then a violation has occurred. If the child was below decks with no PFD, then no violation has occurred."

 

https://www.uscg.mil/Portals/0/Headquarters/Legal/CGHO/Civil Penalty Articles/COMMERCIAL VESSEL SAFETY EQUIPMENT/CHILD WEAR OF PERSONAL FLOTATION DEVICE1.pdf

 

If there's a state reg, then it takes precedence over the federal reg. In Minnesota, the age is under 10 years of age for the requirement. So a child of 11 not wearing a PFD in MN is still in compliance.

 

[J Francho]

Since when would a state law override a federal law?

[MN Fisher]

4 minutes ago, J Francho said:

Since when would a state law override a federal law?

It's not a 'law' but a 'regulation' - and the next paragraph in the link says that the state Reg applies IF there are state regs, otherwise the Federal reg applies.

 

"33 CFR 175.25 provides that where a State has established by statute that children aboard a recreational vessel of a certain age wear an appropriate PFD approved by the Coast Guard, that requirement applies on the waters subject to the State’s jurisdiction. For example, the State of Ohio has established by statute that children under the age of 10 years old wear a PFD. A violation would not exist if a child of 11 years was not wearing a PFD aboard a recreational vessel on waters subject to Ohio jurisdiction."

[Choporoz]

Not so much an override.  The fed law simply states that if states don't have any law explicit to kids and pfd's, then fed regs prevail.  So, if a state does have a law, there isn't a fed reg that applies and can be over-ridden.  I think it's a good compromise to bow to states' rights to make their own rules, but if they don't....well, then the feds get it done

[NHBull]

10 minutes ago, J Francho said:

Since when would a state law override a federal law?

I believe the fed statute says that in the event of no state law, the federal law, is law.  The wording allows for states to require as they see fit

[J Francho]

I bet the water itself matters, too.  I mean ours are federally controlled and policed by USCG, along with ICE/Border Patrol and the Sheriff.

[haggard]

 

[NHBull]

I am all for boater safety and it hurts to see this happen, especially in my back yard.  That said, I don't think it's the governments role to tell adults what they have to do.  We don't require helmets when riding motorcycles ( over 18) and think this falls into the same category.  We all assume responsibility for our decisions, I am not going to tell another man they have to wear a PFD in a kayak, if they don't thanks on a paddle board.

 

[haggard]

35 minutes ago, NHBull said:

I am all for boater safety and it hurts to see this happen, especially in my back yard.  That said, I don't think it's the governments role to tell adults what they have to do.  We don't require helmets when riding motorcycles ( over 18) and think this falls into the same category.  We all assume responsibility for our decisions, I am not going to tell another man they have to wear a PFD in a kayak, if they don't thanks on a paddle board.

 

Agreed, as far as PFDs and helmets go.

 

Seat belts and (motorcycle) eye protection are different - they're about prevention, keeping you on the controls... safety of others, not just self. As a former NH resident I always appreciated they mandate motorcycle eye protection but not helmets. Live free or die.

 

 

[LadiMopar]

On 6/14/2019 at 8:24 PM, haggard said:

Agreed, as far as PFDs and helmets go.

 

Seat belts and (motorcycle) eye protection are different - they're about prevention, keeping you on the controls... safety of others, not just self. As a former NH resident I always appreciated they mandate motorcycle eye protection but not helmets. Live free or die.

Motorcycle Eye Protection, absolutely!

Helmets, never! A survey done in the U.K. some years ago proved there were more fatalities among those wearing helmets than those who did not. The reasoning was simple, less ability to hear, less peripheral vision, and a false sense of security.

As for the seatbelts, to each his own. I never wear one for a host of reasons, but primarily I just don't like the government trying to protect me from myself.

The PFD I always wear because with age comes a little less endurance, and it's good to know ones limitations.

And shouldn't the NH state moto be something like Live, Freeze and Die? Seems like that's what most folks I know who live there seem to think.?

[Log Catcher]

Before many of you were born back in the 1960s they did pass a law requiring motorcycle riders to wear helmets. They threw such a fit about it they finally repealed it. How come nobody had mass protest about having to wear seat belts? With helmets or seat belts it is still about individual choice. I wear a PFD even though the waters I normally fish are not heavily patrolled.

[NHBull]

1 hour ago, Log Catcher said:

Before many of you were born back in the 1960s they did pass a law requiring motorcycle riders to wear helmets. They threw such a fit about it they finally repealed it. How come nobody had mass protest about having to wear seat belts? With helmets or seat belts it is still about individual choice. I wear a PFD even though the waters I normally fish are not heavily patrolled.

Seatbelt laws differ from state to state.  It's a states right issue.  I believe all require them for kids below a certain age, many don't require them for adults..This is the same for helmets.

[flyfisher]

44 minutes ago, NHBull said:

Seatbelt laws differ from state to state.  It's a states right issue.  I believe all require them for kids below a certain age, many don't require them for adults..This is the same for helmets.

https://www.ghsa.org/state-laws/issues/Seat-Belts

Only one that doesn't have a primary or secondary law on the books for adults is New Hampshire.

[NHBull]

27 minutes ago, flyfisher said:

https://www.ghsa.org/state-laws/issues/Seat-Belts

Only one that doesn't have a primary or secondary law on the books for adults is New Hampshire.

Yup, and I live in central NH “live free or die”

 

keep in mind, that it is still a stated right, not Feds.  The way feds have manipulated the States is usually by withholding some type of fund.  That got the drinking age to 21 based on withholding highway funds

[haggard]

2 hours ago, Log Catcher said:

How come nobody had mass protest about having to wear seat belts? With helmets or seat belts it is still about individual choice.

Not the same. Seat belts keep you in control of brakes and steering, possibly the two most important controls on a vehicle. If someone gets hit, or even if simply swerves or makes a minor "off road excursion", they'll probably find themselves out of control of 5,000+ lb of vehicular matter :D  

 

Then there's that part about getting ejected through the windshield, but that's more about personal choice because the rig has probably already come to an abrupt stop at that point.

 

6 minutes ago, NHBull said:

The way feds have manipulated the States is usually by withholding some type of fund.

Or by imposing some type of fee :D

 

[Harold Scoggins]

I had wanted this thread to promote kayak safety and it seems to be morphing into something else.  Is it time to lock, @J Francho?

[flyfisher]

2 minutes ago, Harold Scoggins said:

I had wanted this thread to promote kayak safety and it seems to be morphing into something else.  Is it time to lock, @J Francho?

why?  It is talking about the individual rights of people and what they choose or do not choose to do and other examples are given that are similar.  

no need to lock something that isn't out of hand just because it took a turn somewhere you didn't want it to go.

[LadiMopar]

4 minutes ago, Harold Scoggins said:

I had wanted this thread to promote kayak safety and it seems to be morphing into something else.  Is it time to lock, @J Francho?

 

Speaking only for myself @Harold Scoggins I apologize for getting off the topic of kayak safety, which I appreciate you taking the time to remind us all of. 

As I stated before, I always wear my PFD and was thankful my hubby had his on this season too. His first (and most likely last) attempt at kayaking resulted in him flipping over a 70# kayak in maybe 15 ft of very chilly 55° water. Granted we were not terribly far from the ramp when this occurred and there was a small island he could reach easily, but this lake also has a large amount of submerged rocks and stumps, so things could have turned out quite differently. 

[Sam]

On 4/2/2019 at 10:03 AM, Happybeerbuzz said:

Don’t forget your kill switch cord as well for the boaters out there. 

X2

[Harold Scoggins]

It is our moral responsibility to set an example for the newer kayak anglers.

[Big Rick]

On 6/14/2019 at 11:53 AM, J Francho said:

Since when would a state law override a federal law?

Since marijuana became popular again.....

[Harold Scoggins]