The Rod & Reel BALANCE Thread

[Fishingmickey]

12 hours ago, A-Jay said:

Well, that's got to be it.

I'm just an old spewer. 

 

 

10/0 Penn Senator on a heavy action Tuna Stick - balances perfectly.

Who knew. @WRB Tom Knows

A-Jay

 

 

This picture shows obviously a descendant of Hercules!

FM

[Mobasser]

I've probably caught hundreds of fish with rods/reels that are not perfectly balanced. I never gave it that much thought. Just went fishing

[WRangler506]

10 minutes ago, jbsoonerfan said:

I wouldn't dog A-Jay too much, maybe you should look at one of his threads before calling him out. He might be a decedent of Hercules. 

 

I think the reason many of us "old men" don't understand why it matters is because one inch toward the tip vs toward the reel seat isn't really going to make a difference in a fishing situation. Sure, sitting around your house and taking pics it might, but not out on the water. I'm sorry, but if anyone really gets fatigued or tired over a few ounces, maybe you should take up remote control planes or something. Never mind, the remote would probably be too heavy. 

You dont seem to understand everyone is different or have different preferences. At 38 years old, I can bench my body weight ten times still for reference, and ride 30 minute motos twice a week on an MX track. Its not about not being strong enough, sometimes there are other circumstances. Everyone is different. Thanks for the plane idea....

 

Maybe those that actually get fatigued dont want to fly an RC plane. Way to chase them off a FISHING forum.

[LionHeart]

What if I told you the weight of your reel does not affect balance of your bait casting rod when you are palming the reel?

[A-Jay]

While the majority of what I've added to this thread has been tongue & cheek, this is not.

I totally understand the concept of balanced gear.

Additionally, the notion that everyone is different and or has different preferences does not illude me. 

Since I was one of the first responders here, seems I may have placed a spin on this thread that was not exactly inline with what the OP was intending or hoping for; in fact it's been quite the opposite. 

A classic hi-jack.

So to @ResoKP - I'd like to humbly apologize.

I've learned from it and going forward will certainly make an effort to refrain from such reckless behavior.

A-Jay

 

 

[Choporoz]

What is the weight of the spooled line in each pic above?

[fissure_man]

For those concerned about tip heaviness, balance point is simply the wrong measure to compare setups.

 

Take @ResoKP's example.  The balance point shifted butt-ward maybe 1” with the addition of a few quarters to the butt (Option A).  The exact same balance point could have also been achieved by switching to a heavier reel (Option B).

 

Having achieved equal balance points, would both of these options have resulted in the same ‘feel’ in terms of tip heaviness?  The answer is no, unless @ResoKP actually holds the rod/reel at the locking nut (i.e. at the balance point) in operation.  Assuming the user’s grip is aligned with the reel’s center of mass or slightly ahead, Option A is less tip heavy than Option B.  If the grip is centered behind the reel’s center of mass, Option A still gives the least tip-weight, and the tip-heaviness of Option B would actually be worse than doing nothing at all (despite ‘improving’ the location of the balance point).  Both options result in an increase to overall setup weight, Option B in particular.

 

Considering the above, why would we expect the balance points of different rod/reel combos, which are not aligned with our grip location, to be reliable indicators of tip weight (or at least, reliable enough for the level of hair-splitting desired in this thread)?

[Jaderose]

16 hours ago, ResoKP said:

Often overlooked, let's see some of your favourite spinning and baitcasting combos and how they balance.

Post up some pictures of their balancing points.

 

Megabass Destroyer FMJ & Daiwa morethan PE 1000XHL

How do you like that Morethan?

 

[fishballer06]

[ResoKP]

20 minutes ago, BaitFinesse said:

My last gen Perfect Pitch balances out with an IP68 (7.55oz) like your last pic.  Did you own any of the gen 1 Orochi XX rods?

No, unfortunately I did not get a chance to handle the gen 1 Orochi XX's. I got the 2nd gen PP after seeing a lot of positive reviews regarding the first gen. I would've liked to compare between the two gens, but it looks like I won't be able to.

 

5 minutes ago, Jaderose said:

How do you like that Morethan?

 

I've only went out with it once so I can't say much of how it performs yet. Very smooth and feels solid in hand. Weight difference is noticeable compared to Steez A, but very small. It's also got a thick layer of clear coat on the finish. Feels completely different to the touch compared to Steez SV/A. Not a fan of the clear coat feeling but that's just nitpicking and not deal breaker for me. It would probably add to the durability if anything. I haven't seen anyone else mention that aspect so thought I'd add. Likely going to be one of the reels I'll keep forever.

[jbsoonerfan]

Okay, so someone break this down for a dumb Okie on why it matters when fishing. I have asked that question with no answer. Is it just when casting? Working a soft plastic or jig? Walking the dog? Rolling a spinnerbait? Cranking a lipless? If I am using a spinnerbait my rod tip is pointed to the water. A soft plastic or jig it is pointed about 10:00. So do I want it to be more tip heavy with the spinnerbait and butt heavy with the soft plastic. Sorry, I am looking for real world answers here and how it pertains to actual fishing. Like I said, I have never thought about it so I am looking for reasons why it matters to those that have actually put some thought into it.

[Jigfishn10]

3 hours ago, J Francho said:

It either feels right or not.

Couldn't agree more.

@ResoKP I "like" your OP, it appears that's what your looking for, but no need to call out a respected member.

 

BTW, it's a sweet rig you got

 

 

[Jrob78]

25 minutes ago, BaitFinesse said:

A combo that balances out close to the reel seat will be less tip heavy when palming than one that balances out down the blank far from the reel seat.  We all know this.  Is there some inside joke about balance where we all pretend to be stupid that I am not aware of.

You are correct. This topic comes up pretty frequently and people love to argue over it, call each other "weight weinees" some even say the reel has nothing to do with balance, which is absurd. I think people just get bored waiting for spring. 

 

I've only ever had one rod that I felt I needed to add weight, it balanced out way ahead of the reel seat and was a tip up technique rod. Adding a cap with weights in the butt made the combo much more pleasurable to fish even though it added several ounces to the overall weight of the combo.

 

I've never worried too much about balance as most of my setups are custom and I build them with what I consider acceptable balance based on the technique they are intended.  I never worry about it for tip down, cast and retrieve presentations as it doesn't really matter (to me.) Tip up presentations it becomes more critical (to me) but as long as the tip heaviness isn't extreme, I'm good with it and will use a heavier reel to act as a counterbalance if necessary.

[ResoKP]

54 minutes ago, Jigfishn10 said:

Couldn't agree more.

@ResoKP I "like" your OP, it appears that's what your looking for, but no need to call out a respected member.

 

BTW, it's a sweet rig you got

 

 

So if someone with a 20k post count and is worshiped like a god around here comes in to tell me that I should quit fishing and take up knitting instead, I should just stay quiet?

 

Not to mention he completely missed the point regarding the topic while coming off condescending and making assumptions that I was looking to reduce weight when in fact I did just the opposite.

 

I tried to be nice in the beginning but seems like you can't have a productive discussion around here when you've got a few people pushing their post counts around and continue derailing the topic.

 

Anyways, still have a ton of respect for A-Jay. I've read lots of his insightful posts in the past so it's all good haha

[J Francho]

1 minute ago, ResoKP said:

Anyways, still have a ton of respect for A-Jay.

It isn't post count, it's the content that has earned the respect.

[Jigfishn10]

17 minutes ago, ResoKP said:

So if someone with a 20k post count and is worshiped like a god around here comes in to tell me that I should quit fishing and take up knitting instead, I should just stay quiet?

 

Not to mention he completely missed the point regarding the topic while coming off condescending and making assumptions that I was looking to reduce weight when in fact I did just the opposite.

 

I tried to be nice in the beginning but seems like you can't have a productive discussion around here when you've got a few people pushing their post counts around and continue derailing the topic.

 

Anyways, still have a ton of respect for A-Jay. I've read lots of his insightful posts in the past so it's all good haha

I'm sorry you feel that way bud, but I read the dialog and didn't get that impression, especially the knitting statement, seems to have been made in a very general sense. I may be misinterpreting here, but it doesn't appear condescending to me?

 

And yes we can have productive dialog and you will learn that guys are very passionate about their gear and will voice their opinion. No harm is being done, just all casual banter.

 

Go fish that bad boy rig and make memories with it.

[fishwizzard]

Rod weight/balance is the same argument that is had across all hobbies that involve carried equipment.  Backpacking is maybe the worst with some people obsessing over how short they can cut the handle of their toothbrush down to save a gram or three and others who like to carry three knives, an axe and a saw and don’t even think about weighting their pack. 

 

People get really personal about this and you have a lot of guys who still love their 20lb-empty exterior frame packs and cannot fathom why someone would care about lugging all that dead weight around. 

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

2 hours ago, fissure_man said:

For those concerned about tip heaviness, balance point is simply the wrong measure to compare setups.

 

Take @ResoKP's example.  The balance point shifted butt-ward maybe 1” with the addition of a few quarters to the butt (Option A).  The exact same balance point could have also been achieved by switching to a heavier reel (Option B).

 

Having achieved equal balance points, would both of these options have resulted in the same ‘feel’ in terms of tip heaviness?  The answer is no, unless @ResoKP actually holds the rod/reel at the locking nut (i.e. at the balance point) in operation.  Assuming the user’s grip is aligned with the reel’s center of mass or slightly ahead, Option A is less tip heavy than Option B.  If the grip is centered behind the reel’s center of mass, Option A still gives the least tip-weight, and the tip-heaviness of Option B would actually be worse than doing nothing at all (despite ‘improving’ the location of the balance point).  Both options result in an increase to overall setup weight, Option B in particular.

 

Considering the above, why would we expect the balance points of different rod/reel combos, which are not aligned with our grip location, to be reliable indicators of tip weight (or at least, reliable enough for the level of hair-splitting desired in this thread)?

Option a requires much less weight to balance than option b would. 1oz added to butt section would need

around 4-5oz heavier reel to accomplish same balance.

[jbsoonerfan]

Where you hold the rod also plays a role. Look at Gary Klein, his entire hand is in front of the reel.

[WRangler506]

I can give my example of why it might matter. I HAD to switch and learn baitcasters after I tried one and felt how much better of an angle my wrist was in. A baitcaster is a FAR BETTER angle for my wrist (especially palming the reel)w 3 surgeries and pins and wires, so that was a huge improvement. Now, Im realizing that lets say a 1oz tipheavy feel is experienced. You will feel that when holding the rod, reeling the bait, working the bait on bottom, AND you get the weight of the bait.  My wrist can handle weight, but it doesnt like the palm facing inward and hand forced downward stress. Its the angle mostly thats bad.

 

One of my favorite baits is heavy spinnerbaits, but I cant even fish them anymore. Been this way since I injured my wrists at 19 years old. The wrist is at an angle, stresses the ligaments and all the hardware in my joint and I have to START with the best balance possible. For me, Im willing to bet overall weight might help too, but im not loaded with cash so I just do the best I can.

 

I can handle some harassing and stuff its no big deal its just the internet, but I really didnt get why this topic caused some of those comments. We really should not be harassing or insulting others and telling them to give up fishing. If you dont care about balance then move along, right? Thats what I do with every thread title that doesnt interest me.

[Tennessee Boy]

Leave it to @A-Jay to take the high road.  I have an engineering background and these balance threads always dive me a little crazy.  Everyone can enjoy and learn from a good debate on this forum.  Insults have no place.  My post this morning was very condescending and I apologize for that. 

[WRangler506]

3 hours ago, Mobasser said:

I've probably caught hundreds of fish with rods/reels that are not perfectly balanced. I never gave it that much thought. Just went fishing

Same here. Ive also caught fish on full cork vs split, 1 piece rods vs 2, junk rings vs good sic rings, 66 vs 7ft. Its just a preference for some people, to have something balance well. 

I even like pretty fishing rods more than ugly ones.

Im pretty new on here and might seem new, but ive been fishing for 30+ years and maybe wasnt doing all things the "right" way, but I still caught thousands of fish. Enjoying it is the most important to me.

3 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

I have an engineering background and these balance threads always dive me a little crazy.  Everyone can enjoy and learn from a good debate on this forum.

That just proves were all different. Im also an ME engineer and I find the balance threads useful haha. I may be an outlier as to why it matters though.

[fissure_man]

51 minutes ago, QUAKEnSHAKE said:

Option a requires much less weight to balance than option b would. 1oz added to butt section would need

around 4-5oz heavier reel to accomplish same balance.

Agreed - "Both options result in an increase to overall setup weight, Option B in particular. "  Kinda outside my point, though.

 

 

@Jrob78 and @BaitFinesse: While balance point is obviously not unrelated to tip heaviness, I stand by my previous post that demonstrates that it’s not always reliable for comparing the tip-heaviness of setups, and I’d challenge the belief that heavy reels cure tip-heavy rods (depending on one’s grip, of course). It’s difficult to come up with a more straightforward or relevant example than I’ve given above, but here’s another:

 

Consider two pieces of lumber: an 8’ 2x4 and an 8’ 2x2.  Weight (mass) per foot of the 2x4 is double that of the 2x2.  Both pieces of lumber balance perfectly at the 4 ft mark.

 

If you gripped both pieces of lumber (which have identical balance points) at a distance of 1 foot from the center, which one will feel more tip-heavy?  Note: this crudely simulates palming or gripping a rod behind its balance point, as is typically the case with production rods.

 

As with fishing rods, tip-heaviness here refers to the resistive torque you must supply at the grip location to prevent rotation under gravity.  Let’s assume the rods/lumber are horizontal in this test.

 

Let “m” represent the mass per foot of the 2x2.  The mass per foot of the 2x4 is therefore “2m”. 

 

For both the 2x2 and 2x4, gripped 1 ft offset from the center mark, the ‘butt’ (behind the grip location) is 3 ft long, while the ‘rod’ (ahead of the grip location) is 5 ft long.  The weight of the butt can be represented as a point load at 1.5 ft behind the grip (this is the butt’s center of mass), while the weight of the rod is a point load at 2.5 ft ahead of the grip.

 

Tip heaviness (“T”) is calculated as the difference in opposing torques supplied by the acting of gravity on the butt and rod segments.  The equations for both pieces of lumber are the same, only the butt and rod masses are different.

 

2x2:

T = (“rod torque”) – (“butt torque”)

T = (m x 5 x 2.5) – (m x 3 x 1.5)

T = 12.5m – 4.5m = 8m

 

2x4:

T = (“rod torque”) – (“butt torque”)

T = (2m x 5 x 2.5) – (2m x 3 x 1.5)

T = 25m – 9m = 16m

 

Is it surprising that the tip heaviness of the 2x4 is twice that of the 2x2, given that their balance points are identical?  Is there any reason that the same physical concepts shouldn’t apply to fishing rods? 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by fissure_man
typo

[J Francho]

23 minutes ago, WRangler506 said:

I can handle some harassing and stuff its no big deal its just the internet, but I really didnt get why this topic caused some of those comments. We really should not be harassing or insulting others and telling them to give up fishing. If you dont care about balance then move along, right? Thats what I do with every thread title that doesnt interest me.

No one in this thread told anyone to quit fishing. The OP demonstrated a fact, and formed an opinion about it.  The very nature of how these forums work is stating agreement or dissent in reply.  If you don't want to hear an opposing opinion, or can't handle a reasonable discussion, then it is you that should move on.

[jbsoonerfan]

Things just got real in here.