Ambassadeur c4 vs Revo Beast vs Cardif A

[Tennessee Boy]

@WRB you said what it better than I can.  There is a difference between a brand and a company.  I have some Abu reels that my grandfather owned.  I don’t use them but I pull them out occasionally and admire them. I don’t think the Abu Garcia heritage is completely dead. I know some of the old style reels are still made in Sweden.  People tend to be very brand loyal when they should be loyal to the people that built the brand.  The new owners of Pure Fishing are under no obligation to maintain the Swedish tradition of Abu Garcia.   

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

If you look closely I think the Ambassaduers are now described as Swedish “Engineered”. 

[FishTank]

I like the C4 but the Cardiff is just a better reel.  If you are actually looking between a $140 and a $280 reel, I would suggest looking at the Shimano Calcutta>smooth and built like a tank. 

[redmeansdistortion]

15 hours ago, WRB said:

Growth via Acquisition was and is a method to add deversity and profit to the bottom line. The 80's & 90's was a time period when acquisitions were common and most had some synergy to the management and products being acquired. Somewhere along the line synergy became lost and profits for the share holders rules.

Garcia company who purchased the Abu Ambassador reels made in Sweden no longer exist as a manufacturing facility, it's a assembly plant. The round style baitcasting reel added low profile made in China, followed by the round reels  being made in China to reduce production cost increasing profits. The first thing that goes is quality control because it's added cost, the customer becomes QA department.

The next item that goes away are high end metals replaced by less expensive materials the original reels used that developed the companies reputation.

Today Garcia Abu Ambassador reels are a brand name that is outsourced. Shimano and Daiwa are both still a companies that stands behind their products, have quality control departments and maintain inventory of parts and service.

Tom

Abu still makes many reels in Sweden but outside of the C3, C4, and Pro Rocket, we don't see their other Swedish models stateside unless you buy from a company that imports them.  The Ambassadeur 7000 is made in Taiwan, while the BCX, S, SX, and STX are the Chinese made round reels.  I own some of those international market reels (4500CS Rocket, 5500CS Pro Rocket, 6500CS Rocket) and they are fantastic.  The international reels are mainly marketed towards the European and Japanese markets, and are fine reels just like those made in the 20th century.  Like Daiwa and Shimano, Abu maintains a parts inventory and stands behind their Swedish reels.  This is why many people love them, because they still make parts for reels long out of production.  

[OkobojiEagle]

Where are the Morrums made?

 

oe

[dodgeguy]

20 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Shimano is a company with a long history of building quality innovative reels.  Abu Garcia was a company with a similar history that was bought by Pure Fishing which was bought by the company that makes Rubbermaid products and was recently sold to a company whose greatest success is in Cold Water Creek women’s clothing stores.  History is important to me so I buy my reels from Shimano and my panties from Cold Water Creek. ?

Can we see pictures of your panties ? 

1 hour ago, OkobojiEagle said:

Where are the Morrums made?

 

oe

Sweden

[hwright38]

5 hours ago, FishTank said:

I like the C4 but the Cardiff is just a better reel.  If you are actually looking between a $140 and a $280 reel, I would suggest looking at the Shimano Calcutta>smooth and built like a tank. 

I don't know if I'd spend that much on a round reel the first time around. I only included the Beast as it was a low-profile (something I'm much more used to). I may just have to pony up the cash for it a Calcutta (though after a cursory glance at TW, they don't have the size I'd need in a left handed reel), but as it stands I can get a C4 or a Cardiff for under $100.

[Tennessee Boy]

18 hours ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

If you look closely I think the Ambassaduers are now described as Swedish “Engineered”. 

I’ve seen that term used before. I do think a few of their reels like the C3 are made there.  Tackle Warehouse says “Made In Sweden” on 5 round models.  

[redmeansdistortion]

22 hours ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

If you look closely I think the Ambassaduers are now described as Swedish “Engineered”. 

That's what it says on the package of most of their reels made in SE Asia.  The C3, C4, CS Rocket, and Morrum are all made and assembled in Sweden, even all of their parts are.  There's a good video on YouTube that shows a tour of their Svangsta plant.  It shows the frames and side plates being made, gears being hobbed, smaller metal parts being stamped, you name it.  

 

[kenmitch]

5 minutes ago, redmeansdistortion said:

That's what it says on the package of most of their reels made in SE Asia.  The C3, C4, CS Rocket, and Morrum are all made and assembled in Sweden, even all of their parts are.  There's a good video on YouTube that shows a tour of their Svangsta plant.  It shows the frames and side plates being made, gears being hobbed, smaller metal parts being stamped, you name it.  

 

Abu for life!

 

Is that in the really long video that shows the history of Abu?

[redmeansdistortion]

1 minute ago, kenmitch said:

Abu for life!

 

Is that in the really long video that shows the history of Abu?

Some is in there but not the hobbing machine.  That's from a different video and I'm having a very hard time finding it.

[WRB]

Try finding parts for the legacy Ambaasador reels, most are being salvaged.

Before I retired I had my prototype shop make short run parts for these reels because no stock existed.  I don't know a single trophy bass angler in California who uses Ambassador C3 or C4 reels for swimbaits or any other lure today.

Tom

 

[redmeansdistortion]

7 minutes ago, WRB said:

Try finding parts for the legacy Ambaasador reels, most are being salvaged.

Before I retired I had my prototype shop make short run parts for these reels because no stock existed.  I don't know a single trophy bass angler in California who uses Ambassador C3 or C4 reels for swimbaits or any other lure today.

Tom

 

Lets be realistic.  Can you find a brand new OEM fender liner for a '49 Crown Victoria at the local parts house?  Probably not, no longer in production.  I'd expect any manufacturer to stop production on something long discontinued.  As far as Abu goes, there are a few shops that carry most parts.  I've never encountered a situation where I couldn't obtain a part I needed, especially on the Ultracast models that have been made the last 30 years.  Most everybody sells those parts.  Heck, Abu still makes every single part for the Pro Max/Black Max 1600 and 3600 reels.  I just bought a new drive shaft and return spring for one not long ago right from eReplacement Parts.  Those reels have been out of production for 25 years.

[WRB]

You would be surprised how extensive the auto parts after market is!

If Professional reel techs can't find parts that have all the resources why would you think they would pay a premium to have parts made if they are available anywhere in the world?

The OP's question is regarding current production C4 vs Cardiff for swimbaits and Cardiff wins with 1 Piece frame, superior drag components, 5.8:1 gear ratio and Shimano crank handle. The fact the  level wind disengages increases casting distance. Those Are a few reasons swimbait anglers prefer Shimano reels.

Abu Ambassador reels had their day, now they have a hard core following and I understand that after using those reels for 30 years.

Tom

[Catt]

15 hours ago, hwright38 said:

I don't know if I'd spend that much on a round reel the first time around. I only included the Beast as it was a low-profile (something I'm much more used to). I may just have to pony up the cash for it a Calcutta (though after a cursory glance at TW, they don't have the size I'd need in a left handed reel), but as it stands I can get a C4 or a Cardiff for under $100.

 

First let's clarify some thing, when I did this comparison it was not to establish interchangeability of parts. It was to determine why two reels with similar specifications could have $100 difference in price.

 

Being a manufacturing engineer in the aerospace industry I had access to every nondestructive inspection known and digitizing equipment capable of finding tolerances to 0.0001".

This data was feed into a computer program that compared the two and found no significant differences other than number of bearings (Calcutta 3+1 & Cardiff 4+1).

 

I'm not sure what process was used to test drag but our data showed the Cardiff lacking by 0.331 lbs.

 

The only real difference is the Cardiff is Die Cast while the Calcutta is Cold Forged, both have the same structural rigidity. Cold Forging requires less machining of final surfaces but the process is more expensive thus the price difference. To farther explain this look at the outer surfaces of the reel frames, the Calcutta is smoother than the Cardiff. That's Cold Forged compared to Die Cast!

 

Reels tested

Calcutta CT100A

Cardiff CDF100A

[redmeansdistortion]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

 

First let's clarify some thing, when I did this comparison it was not to establish interchangeability of parts. It was to determine why two reels with similar specifications could have $100 difference in price.

 

Being a manufacturing engineer in the aerospace industry I had access to every nondestructive inspection known and digitizing equipment capable of finding tolerances to 0.0001".

This data was feed into a computer program that compared the two and found no significant differences other than number of bearings (Calcutta 3+1 & Cardiff 4+1).

 

I'm not sure what process was used to test drag but our data showed the Cardiff lacking by 0.331 lbs.

 

The only real difference is the Cardiff is Die Cast while the Calcutta is Cold Forged, both have the same structural rigidity. Cold Forging requires less machining of final surfaces but the process is more expensive thus the price difference. To farther explain this look at the outer surfaces of the reel frames, the Calcutta is smoother than the Cardiff. That's Cold Forged compared to Die Cast!

 

Reels tested

Calcutta CT100A

Cardiff CDF100A

Great post, very informative.

[redmeansdistortion]

12 hours ago, WRB said:

You would be surprised how extensive the auto parts after market is!

If Professional reel techs can't find parts that have all the resources why would you think they would pay a premium to have parts made if they are available anywhere in the world?

The OP's question is regarding current production C4 vs Cardiff for swimbaits and Cardiff wins with 1 Piece frame, superior drag components, 5.8:1 gear ratio and Shimano crank handle. The fact the  level wind disengages increases casting distance. Those Are a few reasons swimbait anglers prefer Shimano reels.

Abu Ambassador reels had their day, now they have a hard core following and I understand that after using those reels for 30 years.

Tom

Myself as well as many other salmon/steelhead anglers surf fish Lake Huron and Lake Michigan with live alewives, crayfish, smelt, and gizzard shad.  The reels I see most often are the Penn Squall and Abu 6500.  Often times, it can be 100yd or greater distance you need to cast and those reels really put them out there.  

[hwright38]

13 hours ago, WRB said:

The OP's question is regarding current production C4 vs Cardiff for swimbaits

Thank you for getting back on track lol. I started a little more intense discussion than I intended, eh?

Thank you @redmeansdistortion and @Catt for the information. I will have to check prices and availability again, but I think I can get the C4 for a little less than the Cardiff, and in the size/handedness that I need. It seems like for me either reel would be more than enough for the few times I need it (I live in Utah, a big bass here is 5lbs, and a big cat is maybe 15lbs; honestly I only need line capacity).

Thank you all so much for the information. I thought I knew a thing or two about reels but this is a whole new planet that I've never even caught a glimpse of until now!

[redmeansdistortion]

4 minutes ago, hwright38 said:

Thank you for getting back on track lol. I started a little more intense discussion than I intended, eh?

Thank you @redmeansdistortion and @Catt for the information. I will have to check prices and availability again, but I think I can get the C4 for a little less than the Cardiff, and in the size/handedness that I need. It seems like for me either reel would be more than enough for the few times I need it (I live in Utah, a big bass here is 5lbs, and a big cat is maybe 15lbs; honestly I only need line capacity).

Thank you all so much for the information. I thought I knew a thing or two about reels but this is a whole new planet that I've never even caught a glimpse of until now!

Yeah things can get pretty heated here when we get into brand preferences.  In all honesty, any quality new production reel should last you many years no matter the make.  Like any other industry, companies that sell garbage soon find themselves liquidated.

[Catt]

44 minutes ago, hwright38 said:

(I live in Utah, a big bass here is 5lbs, and a big cat is maybe 15lbs; honestly I only need line capacity).

 

Am I missing something?

 

Why do you feel like you need a reel the size of an Ambassadeur or Cardiff?

[WRB]

This thread asked a simple question which reel is better for swimbaits?

I answered Cardiff over C4 based on my experience. The C4 cost more $140 vs $120 using TW prices.

C4 frame is stamped brass plates supported by pressed in posts. As Catt detailed the Cardiff has a 1 piece aluminum frame. That might not seem like a big difference however the stronge frame is very important to reel performance.

It makes no difference to me what he OP buys, just sharing my extended experience both reels used to fish swimbaits.

Peace,

Tom

[hwright38]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

 

Am I missing something?

 

Why do you feel like you need a reel the size of an Ambassadeur or Cardiff?

 

2 hours ago, hwright38 said:

(I live in Utah, a big bass here is 5lbs, and a big cat is maybe 15lbs; honestly I only need line capacity).

Both the Ambassadeur and the Cardiff also come in a reel about the same size as a standard baitcaster anyways.

[redmeansdistortion]

4 minutes ago, hwright38 said:

 

Both the Ambassadeur and the Cardiff also come in a reel about the same size as a standard baitcaster anyways.

If you've never fished with a round reel, you may want to borrow one from somebody to make sure you like it first.  Especially if you're considering an Ambassadeur.  Ambassadeurs sit high on the reel seat and can't be palmed as easily as the low profile reels.  I have larger hands so I have no issue, but many others don't find them comfy for all day fishing.  The Cardiff on the other hand, sits much lower than the Ambassadeur and is almost as easily palmed as a low profile.  The Ambassadeur has been using the same basic design since it's inception.  It comes from a time when casting rods had deeply recessed reel seats.

[hwright38]

1 minute ago, redmeansdistortion said:

If you've never fished with a round reel, you may want to borrow one from somebody to make sure you like it first.  Especially if you're considering an Ambassadeur.  Ambassadeurs sit high on the reel seat and can't be palmed as easily as the low profile reels.  I have larger hands so I have no issue, but many others don't find them comfy for all day fishing.  The Cardiff on the other hand, sits much lower than the Ambassadeur and is almost as easily palmed as a low profile.  The Ambassadeur has been using the same basic design since it's inception.  It comes from a time when casting rods had deeply recessed reel seats.

I've got some plans to try them out. I was just making a point to the other guy. I'd much rather have too big of tackle than too small.