flurocarbon abrasion

[riverbasser]

With all the recent threads on floro choices I just wanted to get some feedback.

 

What is your experiance with flurocarbon lines abrasion resistance?

 

I know its marketed this way and for the last 2 years it's all I've used on several setups but I've found it to be extremely finicky. I feel the need to constantly check for Knicks to avoid a break off. Is mono the same but the added stretch just somewhat mitigates the stress on weak points? (I've had many more break off with fluro than any other line)

 

What are yalls experiances?

[Heartland]

4 hours ago, riverbasser said:

With all the recent threads on floro choices I just wanted to get some feedback.

 

What is your experiance with flurocarbon lines abrasion resistance?

 

I know its marketed this way and for the last 2 years it's all I've used on several setups but I've found it to be extremely finicky. I feel the need to constantly check for Knicks to avoid a break off. Is mono the same but the added stretch just somewhat mitigates the stress on weak points? (I've had many more break off with fluro than any other line)

 

What are yalls experiances?

Quite the rabbit hole my friend.  My advice is find a line you like that supports the type of fishing you prefer. Stick with that line and balance your system (rod, reels, tackle, drag and line) to work in conjunction with one another.  Too many variables for any one line especially when you talk about them in the most general of terms, (mono, braid, FC) to suit the needs of everyone.  My .02

[papajoe222]

When targeting rocks, i prefer either original Stren or Trilene XT, mainly because I know I’ll be retying a lot. 

For shell beds, the same applies. For wood cover I prefer braid for soft plastics and fluoro for cranks and faster moving presentations. 

Also, if your break off are occuring on the hook set, check to make sure  it isn’t breaking at the knot. 

[NHBull]

Some are better than others, sniper and shooter are good examples. That said, I have found that there is usually a trade off and I don’t like wirey line

[JustJames]

I’m not sure if I can post the link to you tube where they test abrasion on both mono and fluorocarbon. Search for mono vs fluorocarbon you would see if mod delete.

 

[BoatSquirrel]

Different presentations call for different lines.  I have found quality fluoro fishes very well, just be proactive with your reties.  Its tough to make yourself retie when its game on but there is no shortcutting with it.  I think thats why a lot of guys get in trouble with fluoro as it does not always feel frayed like mono, more of a stressed feel intead.  I fish Seaguar Invizx and Abrazx, tie a double clinch knot and have pulled some enormous trees off the lake bottom trying to break off a snagged bait.  Hope this helps!

 

[Team9nine]

Generally speaking, fluoro is going to be more abrasion resistant under “fishing” conditions, and that has been my experience using it as well. Obviously there will be differences based on things like diameter, composition, formula, etc., but comparing two like lines, fluoro will come out on top more times than not.

 

The video link JustJames posted is a little misleading. His (Luke’s) initial tests were done dry, not wet, and when he did do a follow up wet test, he only soaked lines for 15 minutes. Being leader lines, they should arguably be tougher and slower to absorb water to begin with, so 15 minutes wouldn’t be enough time to bring out the difference in such a test. 

 

Tackle Tour did the same kind of comparison only their base mono was Trilene XL, a soft limp line, and in that case, a 15 minute soak yielded a 50% decrease in abrasion resistance, making it worse than every fluorocarbon line tested. So you need to try and test “apples to apples” as well as properly set up the test conditions to begin with.

 

For reference sake, ASTM standard for a water absorption test is to soak 24 hrs or until equilibrium. Even a liquid like blood takes 75-120 minutes to reach an equilibrium state with water absorption. Nylon polymers are hygroscopic, meaning they readily attract water which will then change their physical properties like tensile strength and abrasion resistance (weaken), whereas fluorocarbon is more hydrophobic, or water repellent, so it’s initial properties tend to change little after repeated water exposure.

[J Francho]

In other words, that test is total bunk.

[WRB]

Fluorocarbon and Nylon monofilament are both single filament fishing lines with very similar strength Characterics including stretch under strain and abrasion resistance.

Nylon has stronger notch strength which gives it superior knot strength and abrasion resistance everything being equal like diameter and surface hardness.

Most, not all, mono lines are about .001" larger in diameter per pound test then most FC lines. Line diameter is critical regarding both knot strength, abrasion resistance and drag going through water. Mono doesn't stretch under normal fishing conditions. What you feel as a spongy line is tightening the bow out of the line caused by line drag going through the water.

The anglers that fish areas with zebra and quagga mussels should be your best bet regarding abrasion resistance, nest would be anglers that fish rocky structure lakes.

Tom

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, J Francho said:

In other words, that test is total bunk.

Not sure I’d go that far...? I’m just not convinced it’s a real good comparison for reflecting on the water experience due to what seems like is insufficient moisture absorption. Abrasion tests are difficult in that regard, but his setup is pretty nice compared to some I’ve seen. 

[waymont]

For me I have never been able to get as good knot strength with fluorocarbon as with mono. When I use fluorocarbon leaders I go up a line size from where I would use mono. As far as abrasion resistance goes fluorocarbon seems to be a little better from my non scientific fishing experience. 

[J Francho]

Knots are a funny thing.  My lecture partner Paul always complained about fluoro and knots.  I had him tie a Palomar using 6 lb. Invisx, onto a #2 hook, and tested the break strength on a scale.  He tied a few times and could not get over 4 lbs.  I tied the same knot, same line, and all of mine were over 6 lbs.  I suspect 6 lb. Invisx probably has a break strength of around 7 lbs.  It was eye opening for the crowd.

[WRB]

Knot testing under controlled pulling force and rate results in the optimum strength.

For example when you change the pulling force rate the knot strength weakens as the speed increases. How fast a bass pulls on the line knot depends on how close the bass is to you and the rods action, power etc. too many variables to list. 

The only test that is important is how the line/knot performs under fishing conditions, it either works or it fails. I tried for decades to understand why FC line knots fail at random times and came to the conclusion that I don't know, but it happens more often then fishing with mono line.

Tom

[ResoKP]

32 minutes ago, waymont said:

For me I have never been able to get as good knot strength with fluorocarbon as with mono. When I use fluorocarbon leaders I go up a line size from where I would use mono. As far as abrasion resistance goes fluorocarbon seems to be a little better from my non scientific fishing experience. 

Are you tying palomar knot?

[roadwarrior]

2 hours ago, Team9nine said:

Generally speaking, fluoro is going to be more abrasion resistant under “fishing” conditions, and that has been my experience using it as well. Obviously there will be differences based on things like diameter, composition, formula, etc., but comparing two like lines, fluoro will come out on top more times than not.

 

The video link JustJames posted is a little misleading. His (Luke’s) initial tests were done dry, not wet, and when he did do a follow up wet test, he only soaked lines for 15 minutes. Being leader lines, they should arguably be tougher and slower to absorb water to begin with, so 15 minutes wouldn’t be enough time to bring out the difference in such a test. 

 

Tackle Tour did the same kind of comparison only their base mono was Trilene XL, a soft limp line, and in that case, a 15 minute soak yielded a 50% decrease in abrasion resistance, making it worse than every fluorocarbon line tested. So you need to try and test “apples to apples” as well as properly set up the test conditions to begin with.

 

For reference sake, ASTM standard for a water absorption test is to soak 24 hrs or until equilibrium. Even a liquid like blood takes 75-120 minutes to reach an equilibrium state with water absorption. Nylon polymers are hygroscopic, meaning they readily attract water which will then change their physical properties like tensile strength and abrasion resistance (weaken), whereas fluorocarbon is more hydrophobic, or water repellent, so it’s initial properties tend to change little after repeated water exposure.

VERY interesting...

My experience is that fluorocarbon line seems significantly more abrasion resistant than mono, but the

feature is irrelevant with most "moving" presentations. I like Tatsu for bottom contact and Sunline Armilo

for treble hooks.

 

 

[waymont]

57 minutes ago, ResoKP said:

Are you tying palomar knot?

Nope. I tie the Eugene slip and pitzen knots. I can’t seem to get super consistent knot strength. Like one out of three fail early and faster than when I tie knots w mono. I’m good  at tying knots but can’t get consistency with fluorocarbon or as strong knots. I do like the feel tho.

[WRB]

Nylon is often soaked in water after extruding to strengthen it by cross linking the polymer chain. Water absorption doesn't weaken Nylon. Teflon and fluorocarbons are also quenched in cold water after extruding to cool the materials however has no affect  on the polymer chain, both require annealing heat to cross link the polymers.

The line conditioners like KVD is to attract water to adhere to the line surface to wet it to reduce memory issues. If you use FC you should use a good line conditioner to improve casting performance.

If you detect abraided line remove it regardless of the line type, it weaken all type of lines strength. 

Personally I haven't noticed any difference in abrasion line strength between premium mono, copolymer or FC lines, they fail when abraided.

Use line you are confortable fishing with. I prefer FC for jigs and worms because it feels better to me and fully aware of the knot strength issues but will not use FC line at night.

Tom

[waymont]

3 hours ago, J Francho said:

Knots are a funny thing.  My lecture partner Paul always complained about fluoro and knots.  I had him tie a Palomar using 6 lb. Invisx, onto a #2 hook, and tested the break strength on a scale.  He tied a few times and could not get over 4 lbs.  I tied the same knot, same line, and all of mine were over 6 lbs.  I suspect 6 lb. Invisx probably has a break strength of around 7 lbs.  It was eye opening for the crowd.

Maybe some people have less slippery saliva? Who knows? All I know is after trying many knots and different strength FC lines, I can't get them as strong and consistent as mono. The Eugene slip knot has been the best for me so far.

When I tie a knot and test it, if it holds it's great. However if it doesn't I just have tie one until it's a good one.

[J Francho]

I don't bother with wetting it.  Makes no difference.

[WRB]

Abrasion and knot strength are 2 different issues. 

What affects a knots strength is deformation caused by cold flow or pressure applied over time or deformation caused by over heating from friction, both flatten the round line weakening it.

Abrasion is tears in the lines surface damaging the line.

Prior to FC line very few new knots were being used by bass anglers. Improved clinch and Paloma dominated fresh water fishing knots. I can't even count the number of knots being promoted for FC line today. The 1 factor these new knots have is they don't apply direct pressure on the line so doesn't deform, the verity of coils cushion the main line.

If the line crosses over itself when tightened it creates heat like 2 sticks being rubbed together under pressure flattening the line, thus weakening it.

With practice and care any knot can be tied without weakening the line, a developed skill. The complicated the knot is the higher the risk of failure, especially under fishing conditions. If you can't tie a knot correctly while fishing the knot is worthless IMO.

The reason I will not use FC at night is because I can't tie 100% perfect knots in the dark and FC is unforgiving if a knot isn't perfect every time.

Wetting does reduce friction but doesn't prevent line cross over or poorly tied knot form failing. I always wet the line before clinching the knot tight.

Tom

PS, you must be very careful preventing the line from contacting today's sharp hook barbs or knife point edges, they cut notches in the line, especially on the boat deck when the boat running.

 

 

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, WRB said:

Nylon is often soaked in water after extruding to strengthen it by cross linking the polymer chain. Water absorption doesn't weaken Nylon. Teflon and fluorocarbons are also quenched in cold water after extruding to cool the materials however has no affect  on the polymer chain, both require annealing heat to cross link the polymers.

The line conditioners like KVD is to attract water to adhere to the line surface to wet it to reduce memory issues. If you use FC you should use a good line conditioner to improve casting performance.

If you detect abraided line remove it regardless of the line type, it weaken all type of lines strength. 

Personally I haven't noticed any difference in abrasion line strength between premium mono, copolymer or FC lines, they fail when abraided.

Use line you are confortable fishing with. I prefer FC for jigs and worms because it feels better to me and fully aware of the knot strength issues but will not use FC line at night.

Tom

Creating lines is a different animal. Unless we’re just dealing with a difference in terminology and talking around the same points, you can go to several line manufacturers websites (Berkley, Toray, for example) where they will confirm that water absorption by nylon lines reduces abrasion resistance, tensile and shock strength, not to mention the numerous studies published confirming this fact. It’s also why the IGFA only tests these lines after soaking them.

[MIbassyaker]

Edit: Wrong thread....Here's what I want to say for this thread:

 

I keep thinking I'm going to try Fluorocarbon again sometime, but I can't get over the price difference between it and a good mono like Big Game.  The advantages of Fluro seem just don't seem to offset that difference, especially considering the added need to ensure my knots are always perfect.

 

[WRB]

1 hour ago, Team9nine said:

Creating lines is a different animal. Unless we’re just dealing with a difference in terminology and talking around the same points, you can go to several line manufacturers websites (Berkley, Toray, for example) where they will confirm that water absorption by nylon lines reduces abrasion resistance, tensile and shock strength, not to mention the numerous studies published confirming this fact. It’s also why the IGFA only tests these lines after soaking them.

I believe with Nylon without blends of polyester, polyurethane or UV inhibitors water abosorption alone doesn't weaken mono line. IGFA test vary after water soaking from increasing and decreasing line strength, works both ways. If you every submit to the IGFA for a line class record be aware they do require 100' of line or fly line triplet to test. Ideally Nylon is cross linked by radiation to further increase tensile properties. Your are correct we are discussing fishing line and abrasion resistance and I don't know of any data that proves mono, Coploy or FC is superior over one or the others in that regard. There are abrasion testing proceedures for filament line used to make protect sleeves in the aerospace business. The softer the line surface the higher damage abrasive surface will cause and fishing must be strong underwater are facts I think we can agree on. 

Tom

 

 

[Boomstick]

From my experience, if I abrasion resistant flurocarbon line then I will use Seaguar's AbrasX. For mono, I have been extremely impressed with Sufix Siege line, not only does it cast and handle extremely well but it's proven more abrasion resistant than most flurocarbon.

 

I usually use Berkley trilene flurocarbon on my cranking setups. I find that knots hold up as good as any other line but the downside is it is not very abrasion resistant. So if I want an abrasion resistant flurocarbon for maybe throwing jigs around rocks, I would go with something like Seaguar's AbrasX (even Invisx is a little better in this regard). If I am going with mono, I've an overwhelmingly positive experience with Sufix Siege. That stuff holds up as good as any other line I have ever used.

2 hours ago, MIbassyaker said:

Edit: Wrong thread....Here's what I want to say for this thread:

 

I keep thinking I'm going to try Fluorocarbon again sometime, but I can't get over the price difference between it and a good mono like Big Game.  The advantages of Fluro seem just don't seem to offset that difference, especially considering the added need to ensure my knots are always perfect.

 

You know, for the same reason I was debating going back to mono. Big Game is okay, but my mono of choice is Sufix Siege. When I'm fishing from a boat or in deeper water, the extra sink of the flurocarbon is definitely nice but I don't own a boat and a lot of my fishing is done shallow and sometimes I will find I am basically dragging my line across the bottom instead of hopping my lure off the bottom and have to hold my rod tip higher.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

4 hours ago, J Francho said:

I don't bother with wetting it.  Makes no difference.

Rebel.