Silly MLF rule

[MN Fisher]

Just now, jbsoonerfan said:

Every tournament I have fished it has said something about a lie detector possibly being used. If you sign that waiver you are agreeing to taking one. They would laugh at someone when they threatened to sue. But, it is 2019 and people will sue for anything looking for a quick payday.

That makes it easy for me...I just won't fish any tournaments. Why they decide to use a system that the courts state is unreliable enough to establish 'reasonable doubt' is beyond me.

[jbsoonerfan]

2 minutes ago, MN Fisher said:

That makes it easy for me...I just won't fish any tournaments. Why they decide to use a system that the courts state is unreliable enough to establish 'reasonable doubt' is beyond me.

They probably do it to either A. Scare people into not cheating just in case, or B. Keep people like you from fishing so they don't have to worry about a legal battle.

 

It may not be admissible in a court of law, but it is usually good enough to get someone to crack (which I am pretty sure is the intent)

[TnRiver46]

Gerald swindle had a video somewhere where he said this rule was silly when BASS first came out with it. His reasoning was every single time he interacts with fans of the sport, they want to talk about skipping a jig on guntersville or fishing a jerkbait on Champlain, just depends on what city they are in. So now he has to just cut them off when they start talking fishing. If you take “talking fishing” out of the sport, that’s why people call it “silly.” Even top pros

[Troy85]

11 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

Gerald swindle had a video somewhere where he said this rule was silly when BASS first came out with it. His reasoning was every single time he interacts with fans of the sport, they want to talk about skipping a jig on guntersville or fishing a jerkbait on Champlain, just depends on what city they are in. So now he has to just cut them off when they start talking fishing. If you take “talking fishing” out of the sport, that’s why people call it “silly.” Even top pros

I remember him saying this as well.  I agree, it does seem like a silly rule.  Then you hear Sams story about paying guys to practice for you, then the rules makes more sense.  Still ruins it though for the fans who wanna talk fishing with pros.

[Hawkeye21]

11 hours ago, MN Fisher said:

That makes it easy for me...I just won't fish any tournaments. Why they decide to use a system that the courts state is unreliable enough to establish 'reasonable doubt' is beyond me.

That's your option but when you love to fish tourneys what other option do you have?  What do you suggest these tourneys do to avoid cheating then?  A polygraph is not perfect but it can certainly help prevent a lot of cheating.  I know it's in the back of my head while fishing that if I win I'll have to take one, so I make sure I don't screw up.

[TnRiver46]

I'm guessing @MN Fisher is like me and doesn't have any desire to fish tournaments. Sure I enjoy friendly competition among friends and bragging rights are pretty funny but all these rules just seem crazy. I enjoy BASS on TV but I fished a tournament myself once and it was just not for me (especially the ride with a stranger at 70 mph part). Kind of like baseball: I love to watch on TV and play pickup in the yard but I still can't make the big leagues or verbally explain the infield fly rule to my girlfriend. As far as the polygraph thing, I'm sure the tournament organizers are just trying to prevent cheating the best they can but I was unaware that polygraphs have been proven ineffective. You would think the next step would be to find a more reliable solution but I sure don't know of one 

[MN Fisher]

8 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

is like me and doesn't have any desire to fish tournaments.

It's not that I wouldn't like to fish a tournament, but with the various rules they enforce it's not worth the headaches. Boat tournaments here basically preclude my canoe as they have a massive advantage of reaching the fishing spots from the launch points. The Kayak tournaments here - even thought the Kayak group accepts Canoe owners as members, requires their tournament fishing to be from a Kayak...period.

 

So, no tournaments for me - which is a bummer.

[TnRiver46]

1 minute ago, MN Fisher said:

It's not that I wouldn't like to fish a tournament, but with the various rules they enforce it's not worth the headaches. Boat tournaments here basically preclude my canoe as they have a massive advantage of reaching the fishing spots from the launch points. The Kayak tournaments here - even thought the Kayak group accepts Canoe owners as members, requires their tournament fishing to be from a Kayak...period.

 

So, no tournaments for me - which is a bummer.

There may some online national tournaments that allow a canoe to compete. I am also a canoe fisherman, I have an alumacraft. She's my baby........

[J Francho]

Lie detector results are inadmissible as evidence in criminal proceedings.  That doesn't make them ineffective.  They are still used by law enforcement, especially in cases to exonerate or rule out a suspect.  The reason is that interpreting the results is subjective.  They're basically comparing baselines when telling the truth and intentionally lying.  Then ask specific questions that have simple answers, and compare to the baselines.

 

The bottom line, it's a silly reason NOT to participate in a tournament, and you're not suing anyone for it, since you agree to the rules when entering.  As far as rules go by the way, I've found anything different than a regular day of fishing other than the safety and livewell check, and having to be back at the launch at a certain time.  I only fish team format anymore, so the two people in the boat are working together.  It's no different to me than meeting up with a buddy at the ramp.  Sometimes it's my boat, other times it's theirs.  It's just fishing all the same to me.

[MN Fisher]

Sorry @J Francho, given the truly subjective nature of Polygraph tests and this quote from the link I provided before - "For now, although the idea of a lie detector may be comforting, the most practical advice is to remain skeptical about any conclusion wrung from a polygraph." - any rules that state a Polygraph may be given is reason enough for me to not enter.

[Team9nine]

Obviously it is up to each individual to choose whether to enter an event or not, but the polygraph requirement in most major events isn’t going away anytime soon. The legality behind them, the rules and compliance’s in the entry form you sign, and the discretion of the tourney director have been legally upheld in court, so precedent has been set. You fail the polygraph, you lose. It’s really that simple.

[jbsoonerfan]

4 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

That's your option but when you love to fish tourneys what other option do you have?  What do you suggest these tourneys do to avoid cheating then?  A polygraph is not perfect but it can certainly help prevent a lot of cheating.  I know it's in the back of my head while fishing that if I win I'll have to take one, so I make sure I don't screw up.

That's your option but when you love to fish tourneys what other option do you have?  What do you suggest these tourneys do to avoid cheating then?  A polygraph is not perfect but it can certainly help prevent a lot of cheating.  I know it's in the back of my head while fishing that if I win I'll have to take one, so I make sure I don't win. LOL

 

Just had to change the end of your post to best suit my needs. ?

[J Francho]

The big issue with the lie detector test is that it can be beaten, not that they're unreliable.  Check out the countermeasures and use sections here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph

 

Their effectiveness being highly debated within the medical and research community says to me that trusting one link to a single medical organization may not yield all the useful information to make an informed decision.  That said, I'm not discounting you're distrust of the device.  Just seems like a strange thing to fuss over.  It's been standard practice for decades.

[Logan S]

3 hours ago, MN Fisher said:

It's not that I wouldn't like to fish a tournament, but with the various rules they enforce it's not worth the headaches. Boat tournaments here basically preclude my canoe as they have a massive advantage of reaching the fishing spots from the launch points. The Kayak tournaments here - even thought the Kayak group accepts Canoe owners as members, requires their tournament fishing to be from a Kayak...period.

 

So, no tournaments for me - which is a bummer.

Regular tournaments have rules and minimum requirements for boats for legitimate reasons.  Safety, livewells, ability to accommodate a co-angler, etc.  

 

I don't kayak fish, but I can see where a canoe likely has larger storage capacity than kayaks...Probably some other legitimate/competitive reasons too.  

 

You could always fish a tournament as a co-angler if you actually want to try them.  

[lo n slo]

4 hours ago, MN Fisher said:

Sorry @J Francho, given the truly subjective nature of Polygraph tests and this quote from the link I provided before - "For now, although the idea of a lie detector may be comforting, the most practical advice is to remain skeptical about any conclusion wrung from a polygraph." - any rules that state a Polygraph may be given is reason enough for me to not enter.

if you’re ever down this way brother you can fish with me in the next tournament without any fear of having to take a polygraph.....heck we may call it a day a couple hours early an save ourselves some embarrassment at the weigh in. ???

[blongfishing]

This rule is nothing new and pretty much all major tournament trails do this. I know even on the high school level with BASS you can't accept information. In fact, today I was looking over my rules packet for a BASS event I'm fishing coming up next week. One of the first rules says that if anyone even mentions the slightest thing about the lakes conditions, baits, or anything of that nature you have to stick your fingers in your ears and say "I am not able to accept information for this tournament". On the water while fishing you can share information with other competitors but off the water it is a "no-no"

 

Quoted from the rules:

"During Official Practice, you cannot solicit (ask) for fishing advice from anyone who isn't entered into the tournament. Example, if you are fishing down a bank and a person comes out on the dock and starts to tell you where to go or how to fish, you answer is easy. "Madam/sir, I appreciate you trying to help me but per rule I cannot get any advice from anyone who isn't fishing in the tournament." 

[buzzbaiter83]

I help run a Bass Club. It’s in our rules that suspected cheaters can be subject to polygraph. It also says that if you’re the accusing party then you agree to pay for the polygraph. We’ve never had anyone ask to administer one. 

[OCdockskipper]

I started a bass club (actually an official B.A.S.S. affiliate!) way back in the 1970's when I was 15, the Canyon Lake BassMasters.  However, I didn't know any of the other guys who fished the lake, so I listed myself as the President, my dad as VP, my mom as Treasurer and my little sister as Secretary.  My mom & dad didn't fish, so if there were any allegations of cheating between my sister & I, they would just administer a spanking...

[Jleebesaw]

The elite series guys can talk about the fishing off the water. Jacob wheeler has videos on you tube where 3 or 4 of them sit around after practice days and even during the tourney talking about where they are catching them and what lures they used. Him and 2 other guys share rooms. If they weren't allowed to talk about it, I'm sure he wouldn't be showing them doing it on you tube. In one of his newer videos during the first mlf event he comments about not being able to talk to each other after midnight. But when he was fishing bass they talked plenty.

      As someone else mentioned, I have seen the pre fishing before the elite series events too. For 2 weeks before the big derby, you can hardly find a parking spot at a launch on the st lawrence river.  They are full of trucks from out of state. A friend of mine even had something on facebook about it where he counted them all at one spot. I don't have the exact numbers but there were several truck from texas and Oklahoma. Only 2 trucks had new york plates. I'm not sure if they are allowed to do it, but they definatly have people scout for them. It can't be a coincidence.

[junyer357]

Locally here, its in the tourny rules that winners can be subjected to a polygraph. Matter of fact, the polygraph techs, make far more money on weekends from working tourneys than they do on their regular pay. Usually about once a year, you hear about someone failing and being found guilty of cheating (often guntersville).  Being found guilty also means a ban from most future tournaments, as well as a suspension of their fishing license and possible jail time and fines. 

[jbsoonerfan]

19 minutes ago, junyer357 said:

Locally here, its in the tourny rules that winners can be subjected to a polygraph. Matter of fact, the polygraph techs, make far more money on weekends from working tourneys than they do on their regular pay. Usually about once a year, you hear about someone failing and being found guilty of cheating (often guntersville).  Being found guilty also means a ban from most future tournaments, as well as a suspension of their fishing license and possible jail time and fines. 

Slow down there easy rider. Loss of fishing license? I doubt the state cares whether or not someone fails a lie detector in a fishing tournament. Possible jail time? Lie detectors are admissible in the court of law. Fines? As long as no game laws were broke, what could they be fined for?

[Scott F]

47 minutes ago, jbsoonerfan said:

Slow down there easy rider. Loss of fishing license? I doubt the state cares whether or not someone fails a lie detector in a fishing tournament. Possible jail time? Lie detectors are admissible in the court of law. Fines? As long as no game laws were broke, what could they be fined for?

It's not game laws tournament cheaters are breaking. I think the authorities consider cheating in tournaments as a type of fraud where they take money under false pretenses.

[jbsoonerfan]

8 minutes ago, Scott F said:

It's not game laws tournament cheaters are breaking. I think the authorities consider cheating in tournaments as a type of fraud where they take money under false pretenses.

That would be hard to prove in a court of law. Can't imagine it happening over a fishing tournament. Lie detectors can't be used in a murder trial but I'm supposed to believe we are using them to put guys in jail over some fish and money?

 

BTW, I understand it has happened, but there has to be evidence, not just failing a polygraph.

[junyer357]

http://www.waff.com/story/26537713/fishermen-found-guilty-of-cheating-in-tournament/

 

I  see a story like this about once a year. This was from a tue nite tourny too, not a bigger weekend one. 

[jbsoonerfan]

Nothing mentioned about a polygraph.