Shortening Rods

[Bill Brunstad]

The more I read about this subject, the more I’m confused.  What I thought I believed was if material was trimmed from the tip, the action became faster because the flexing part moves proportionally toward the tip.  I see this when I do a figure-8 when fishing muskie baits when I pulse a pole tip during the maneuver to create a quick pulsing movement movement of the lure and then repeat.  When I pulse with a faster action rod (stiffer tip), the bait immediately follows which is desirable.  When I do this with a medium fast pole of the same brand and length, the entire tip section lags behind and the bait catches up, but noticeably slower in responding which tells me this is slower action.  I had a former medium fast action pole that I had to trim due to an accident and when I pulse the bait in a figure-8 maneuver, it now responds obviously quicker than it did before I trimmed from the tip, and is same as my fast action pole.  To me, this is a visual indication that the action is faster, yet there are many or most here and other rod boards that say that this action is slower.  What am I missing?  I just want to understand this.

[The Bassman]

48 minutes ago, Bill Brunstad said:

The more I read about this subject, the more I’m confused.  What I thought I believed was if material was trimmed from the tip, the action became faster because the flexing part moves proportionally toward the tip.  I see this when I do a figure-8 when fishing muskie baits when I pulse a pole tip during the maneuver to create a quick pulsing movement movement of the lure and then repeat.  When I pulse with a faster action rod (stiffer tip), the bait immediately follows which is desirable.  When I do this with a medium fast pole of the same brand and length, the entire tip section lags behind and the bait catches up, but noticeably slower in responding which tells me this is slower action.  I had a former medium fast action pole that I had to trim due to an accident and when I pulse the bait in a figure-8 maneuver, it now responds obviously quicker than it did before I trimmed from the tip, and is same as my fast action pole.  To me, this is a visual indication that the action is faster, yet there are many or most here and other rod boards that say that this action is slower.  What am I missing?  I just want to understand this.

Let me first welcome you to our forums. I'm like you in that I really didn't get the reasoning about this. I did the smart thing and slipped out the back door and let others hash this out.

[MickD]

If one defines action based on where the rod bends, faster if it only bends near the tip and slower if it bends farther into the blank, then when you take an existing rod/blank and shorten it from either end the action will become slower.  BUT, This is based on the CCS measurement process which gives objective data on power and action, AND it measures the blank/rod from the very ends.  Where the grip is is not part of the process and does not affect the numbers.  So that's a little quirk in the system, and how that affects what your feeling I won't hazard a guess.

 

ALSO, "fast action" does not mean a stiff tip. That is "power."  A fact that most don't realize is that if you have two blanks of the same power, meaning they will deflect the same distance for the same load, the faster the action the softer/less stiff the tip will be.  Think of it this way, if you have an extra extra extra fast action rod of quite high power it will flex mostly in the last few inches of the rod and will act like a broom stick with an ice rod on the end of it.  It will still be very powerful but you will go through the tip very easily then come up hard on the broom stick section.  Before everyone writing to tell me I'm full of bologna please take the time to try to understand the example above.  AT THE SAME POWER, AS POWER IS TRADITIONALLY MEASURED, THE FASTER THE ACTION THE SOFTER THE TIP.  IT HAS TO BE  IN ORDER FOR THE RODS TO HAVE THE SAME POWER.

 

If you want a rod that will snap a spinnerbait off weeds you need a rod of the right "power" (stiffness) to do that.  Action is not the issue.  Power is.

 

Back to the broom stick.  It is obviously very stiff, right?  It is very high power.  But what is its action?  By the definitions commonly used its action is very very very slow.  It does not bend only in the tip section; it bends over its whole length.

 

Regarding your pulsing the figure eight for muskies, you are talking about power and not action.  The mod fast action rod is actually a lower power rod than the fast that you are comparing it to.  You are right in perceiving that it is not following as directly, but it's not because of its action; it's because it is a lower power rod than the faster action one.  

 

I hope this helps.  If not, ask again and I'll have another go at it.  You might want to check out the link below.  The system was designed to evaluate fly rods, but it works for any rod.  The interaction of power and action is very complex, and hard to understand, but it helps to keep strictly to the definitions of each.  Many who discuss it do not and that causes confusion.  For example, I saw on here the other day a writer state he had a "heavy action" rod.  He surely meant heavy power, but using "action" when "power" is the right word is misleading and confusing.  It's sort of like horsepower and torque.  They are not the same and not interchangeable.

 

https://www.common-cents.info/

 

[MickD]

I have no idea why this ended up pink.

 

[Michigander]

26 minutes ago, MickD said:

I have no idea why this ended up pink.

 

I see no pink....

[MickD]

15 hours ago, Michigander said:

I see no pink....

It was to me, and I'm told it was about the link that was not recognized. 

[Michigander]

6 minutes ago, MickD said:

It was to me, and I'm told it was about the link that was not recognized. 

Oh, that makes sense if it was waiting for moderator approval.

[NOC 1]

On 12/18/2020 at 12:24 PM, Bill Brunstad said:

The more I read about this subject, the more I’m confused.  What I thought I believed was if material was trimmed from the tip, the action became faster because the flexing part moves proportionally toward the tip.  I see this when I do a figure-8 when fishing muskie baits when I pulse a pole tip during the maneuver to create a quick pulsing movement movement of the lure and then repeat.  When I pulse with a faster action rod (stiffer tip), the bait immediately follows which is desirable.  When I do this with a medium fast pole of the same brand and length, the entire tip section lags behind and the bait catches up, but noticeably slower in responding which tells me this is slower action.  I had a former medium fast action pole that I had to trim due to an accident and when I pulse the bait in a figure-8 maneuver, it now responds obviously quicker than it did before I trimmed from the tip, and is same as my fast action pole.  To me, this is a visual indication that the action is faster, yet there are many or most here and other rod boards that say that this action is slower.  What am I missing?  I just want to understand this.

To keep it simple think of the fast, as in a fast action rod, as referring to how "fast" the tip reaches it's maximum bend and so how how fast it transfers the load to the lower sections of the blank. .

 

 An XF rod has a very thin flexible tip and so requires little weight to bend it until the tip is directly pointing at the load. After that point, the tip is not bearing any additional weight and all the remaining weight is handled by the lower rod sections.

 

The same rod with a Moderate action on the other hand has a stiffer tip. It takes more weight to bend it to the same point, so it is "slower" to pass the load.

 

[MickD]

By "that same rod" you mean a rod of the same power but with a moderate action, right?

[MickD]

I'll add one thing that might help.  If one shortens a rod by cutting a couple inches off the butt to prevent snagging on clothing but does not move the reel seat AND uses one handed casting and fish fighting there will be no perceivable change in power or action.  Everything from the hand to the tip is unchanged.  The balance will be changed a little.

 

However, as soon as that second hand gets onto the butt, it is a different rod based on the objective CCS numbers since CCS measures from the ends of the rod/blank.  The difference may be so small that you don't feel it, but it's there.  

 

CCS may not be perfect, and it does not answer all questions (sensitivity for example), but it does accurately and objectively measure the power and action of the rod/blank using the descriptors (fast/slow/heavy/light/etc)  that rod manufacturers, builders, and most users have agreed to.  While a St Croix "heavy power" may be different than a Rainshadow "heavy power," when two rods have the same CCS power and action numbers they are very close to acting alike and feeling alike.  (There still can be differences in material/construction/weight/guide train/etc that can affect the feel and performance).