Palomar Knot break or Knot slip - Seaguar Blue Line Flouro Leader

[Brad Reid]

3 hours ago, NHBull said:

There is a reason this topic comes up a lot......for many, Palomar and FC don't to play well.  I just don't understand  why folks continue to use it when there so many options.

 

 

 

Good observation, NHBull. I tie Palomar knots frequently because I drop shot often and it creates a good knot , size-wise, for passing back through the hook eye to get the hook to stand out perpendicular to the line. And, I tie them correctly.

 

But, for those who have trouble using with them with fluoro, heck, just use a different knot. Lots of options. Not because of a bad knot, I just greatly prefer a Uni knot for most applications . . . other than a drop shot.

 

Your best knot is the one that you tie well.

 

Brad

[Team9nine]

3 hours ago, NHBull said:

There is a reason this topic comes up a lot......for many, Palomar and FC don't to play well.  I just don't understand  why folks continue to use it when there so many options.

 

 

 

Because life is simpler when you only need one connecting knot for every outfit you own. The Palomar has been tested and proven as one of strongest knots you can tie no matter the line type being used. It's not as difficult as we sometimes make it sound in these forum discussions.

 

[Catt]

The Palomar is the only knot I use for monofilament, fluorocarbon, & braid...never had an issue.

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

3 hours ago, Team9nine said:

Because life is simpler when you only need one connecting knot for every outfit you own. The Palomar has been tested and proven as one of strongest knots you can tie no matter the line type being used. It's not as difficult as we sometimes make it sound in these forum discussions.

 

FishnFool a little better though on all three lines and uses less line to tie. Ease of tying well if quite a few people have issues maybe its not all that easy to tie correctly. A person having tied it for years it should be easy. Both knots are very easy for me to tie but the FnF knot has tested stronger for me than the palomar with all my lines.

 I use light line often nanofil 6-8# so using a knot that gives me 3-4 pounds 50% more strength is quite significant. 

 

Here another chart

15 pound test mono

14 pound test braid

15 pound fluoro

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, QUAKEnSHAKE said:

FishnFool a little better though on all three lines and uses less line to tie. Ease of tying well if quite a few people have issues maybe its not all that easy to tie correctly. A person having tied it for years it should be easy. Both knots are very easy for me to tie but the FnF knot has tested stronger for me than the palomar with all my lines.

 I use light line often nanofil 6-8# so using a knot that gives me 3-4 pounds 50% more strength is quite significant. 

 

Here another chart

15 pound test mono

14 pound test braid

15 pound fluoro

All depends on whose data you want to believe  According to this chart, F&F is slightly worse than Palomar with braid and fluoro. Both average nearly identical.

 

EDIT: Actually, looking at all the data points in your chart where they are claiming that the majority of the knots tested with 15# fluorocarbon broke higher than the rated test line with the knots tied in them, I'd say is highly questionable at best...and the data points showing near 20# break strength are borderline bogus. Something isn't right with that data set.

 

[MickD]

On 12/28/2018 at 8:42 AM, Brad Reid said:

Fluorocarbon has less heat conductivity than monofilament. It does. So, to the extent that burning is an issue, it'd be more so with monofilament.

If true, the heat generated by tying the knot would be held more by FC (and therefore have more opportunity damage the leader ) than mono, which would conduct more heat away from the knot.  i'm not sure the conclusion is true, or if true, significant.  Just another opinion.

[NHBull]

........it's Winter ?

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

2 hours ago, Team9nine said:

All depends on whose data you want to believe  According to this chart, F&F is slightly worse than Palomar with braid and fluoro. Both average nearly identical.

 

EDIT: Actually, looking at all the data points in your chart where they are claiming that the majority of the knots tested with 15# fluorocarbon broke higher than the rated test line with the knots tied in them, I'd say is highly questionable at best...and the data points showing near 20# break strength are borderline bogus. Something isn't right with that data set.

 

Those are knot wars numbers. Maybe the actual strength of the line is greater than rated strength.

[Team9nine]

25 minutes ago, QUAKEnSHAKE said:

Those are knot wars numbers. Maybe the actual strength of the line is greater than rated strength.

I'm guessing typo in their data set. No doubt the line tests somewhat above its rated strength, but you're not getting 30% greater line strength than rated with a knot tied in your fluoro. That flies in the face of about every other piece of data you can find in this regard...and I've seen a bunch of it. If instead that was 20# or even 17# fluoro they tested on (instead of 15#), then I say, 'OK, plausible." Just a quick browse of the extensive data Tackle Tour has amassed with fluoro knots, tensile strengths and so many lines tested should tell you something is wrong. That said, I did see where the Berkley braid knot beat the FnF knot in their final showdown, whatever year that was 

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

19 minutes ago, Team9nine said:

I'm guessing typo in their data set. No doubt the line tests somewhat above its rated strength, but you're not getting 30% greater line strength than rated with a knot tied in your fluoro. That flies in the face of about every other piece of data you can find in this regard...and I've seen a bunch of it. If instead that was 20# or even 17# fluoro they tested on (instead of 15#), then I say, 'OK, plausible." Just a quick browse of the extensive data Tackle Tour has amassed with fluoro knots, tensile strengths and so many lines tested should tell you something is wrong. That said, I did see where the Berkley braid knot beat the FnF knot in their final showdown, whatever year that was 

Yeah in the chart berkley knot better with FC not as good with braid mono. I use mostly braid and mono only for backing so good for me. 

[Brad Reid]

2 hours ago, MickD said:

If true, the heat generated by tying the knot would be held more by FC (and therefore have more opportunity damage the leader ) than mono, which would conduct more heat away from the knot.  i'm not sure the conclusion is true, or if true, significant.  Just another opinion.

Mick, no. The heat generated by the friction of snugging down a "dry" knot never rises to the level in fluorocarbon that it does in a monofilament. This is the heat conductivity part of the equation. But, when you wet a knot, of any sort, water (spit) has a much higher level of heat conductivity and conducts it away from the line. It just conducts less heat away with fluoro than mono because the fluoro never gets as hot. Advantage, fluorocarbon.

 

There are other aspects, for sure, and fluoro lines do have fractionally higher levels of thermal expansion for the same amount of heat exposure. But, the slight difference is offset  . . . because fluoro never gets as heated to begin with. Let's call this physical property a draw.

 

The real culprit is fluoro's much lower bending strength. For a given tensile strength rating of the two lines, say both can suspend 20 lbs. before breaking, fluorocarbon does less well when "flexed" (bent) and blows out or ruptures more easily. Advantage, monofilament.

 

Add this to the fact that the fluorocarbon material is just much more dense and it makes getting it set well and deep in a knot, of any kind, more difficult than with most monofilaments. Advantage, monofilament.

 

Brad 

[MickD]

If the heat (thermal) conductivity is higher for one material than another,  ANY heat will leave the area quicker.  What has higher thermal conductivity, copper or steel?  Copper.  If you heat two samples the heat will be conducted away from the source faster with higher conductivity material, copper ,faster.

 

If FC actually has a lower thermal conductivity than mono then heat will be conducted away from the source slower than with mono.  

 

 I'm not talking about what material when deformed or stretched or tied will generate more or less heat, but when the  thermal conductivity of a material is higher than another, heat will be conducted away from the source faster in that material.  

 

What all of this means to knot strength is, in my opinion, insignificant.  What is significant is that FC, as you say, is fragile when bent.  Anyone who has tried to get a backlash out of a baitcaster knows this.  I am not a fan of FC for anything other than leader material.  And I even doubt that it's coefficient of refraction advantage is significant.

 

Having said all of this, one fact is indisputable:  millions of fish have been caught with both FC and mono using many different knots.

[txchaser]

7 hours ago, Brad Reid said:

The real culprit is fluoro's much lower bending strength.

Is this helped in the (what appears to be) stiffer FC leader or made worse?

[MickD]

I find that the FC (and mono) designed for leader to be tougher, less fragile, than those designed to be line.  Leader is stiffer, which one would think  might make it more sensitive to bending problems, but I think in the formulation the stiffer/harder stuff is less fragile.  Nope, no data, just my impression.

[Brad Reid]

14 hours ago, MickD said:

If the heat (thermal) conductivity is higher for one material than another,  ANY heat will leave the area quicker.  What has higher thermal conductivity, copper or steel?  Copper.  If you heat two samples the heat will be conducted away from the source faster with higher conductivity material, copper ,faster.

 

If FC actually has a lower thermal conductivity than mono then heat will be conducted away from the source slower than with mono.  

 

 I'm not talking about what material when deformed or stretched or tied will generate more or less heat, but when the  thermal conductivity of a material is higher than another, heat will be conducted away from the source faster in that material.  

 

What all of this means to knot strength is, in my opinion, insignificant.  What is significant is that FC, as you say, is fragile when bent.  Anyone who has tried to get a backlash out of a baitcaster knows this.  I am not a fan of FC for anything other than leader material.  And I even doubt that it's coefficient of refraction advantage is significant.

 

Having said all of this, one fact is indisputable:  millions of fish have been caught with both FC and mono using many different knots.

Mick, correct on your metals analogy. A quick cinching of a "dry" knot, any resulting friction heat created, won't penetrate and move through the fluoro as fast as it would mono. There just isn't much heat to localize or otherwise spread.

 

I think we agree that it is insignificant for either line. And, it certainly is if we wet the knot though I view this as more of a lubrication than as a "heat sink." The heat conductivity of both line types is very close to begin with.

 

Yes, more about fragility of fluorocarbon.

 

I also use it solely as a leader, don't like it as a main line.

 

Brad

8 hours ago, txchaser said:

Is this helped in the (what appears to be) stiffer FC leader or made worse?

Stiffer lines are harder to "bend," tougher to draw into a tight knot, too. So, my general thought is that a stiffer line bends more poorly, suffers the consequences related to it. For sure, it is tougher to cast.

 

But, where it remains relatively un-bent, like a short piece of these tougher fluoro formulas specially-made for leaders, they have other attributes, likely stand up to abrasion better, for example.

 

I personally use 6 to 8 ft. leaders using standard fluoros like Invizx.

 

Brad