Palomar Knot break or Knot slip - Seaguar Blue Line Flouro Leader

[txchaser]

I hooked up with the Kraken and was totally unprepared. In particular my drag was cranked up, I hadn't checked in three days for nicks, and the last re-tie was at least three fish ago, if not more.  I'm 99% sure I didn't cross the line over itself in the hook eye, but I do notice when I tie this knot the loop part that it supposed to cinch on the top of the knot wants to flop around and be everywhere but the top of the knot when I cinch. 

 

My own fault, I had moved from ponds to a lake with some known large fish, in great conditions, and no competition because it was cold-ish and windy, so at least the chance of something big. 

 

30lb braid -> 15lb seaguar blue line leader-> mustad fastech-> z-man chatterbait

 

Strike (hard), hard hookset, 3 seconds of fight where I'm just trying to overpower it. Then the line goes limp. Sigh. 

 

When I get it back, the end of the line has a 1/2 or so of a C-shape, with a straight part going up out the top of the C. I've broken this line on a snag once before at it seemed clearly at the knot, little bend at the end of the leader. 

 

Did the knot slip? Some weird stress on the line from before make that shape?

 

[Bluebasser86]

Any particular reason for running braid to a leader for a chatterbait? And are you clipping the fastech to the snap on the chatterbait blade? 

[txchaser]

1 hour ago, Bluebasser86 said:

Any particular reason for running braid to a leader for a chatterbait? And are you clipping the fastech to the snap on the chatterbait blade? 

It was already on there from fishing the clear waters before. Fair point, that would have avoided the issue too. Cost me a big one I think. Maybe it was a ticked off catfish. 

 

The Fastech is to keep me from losing my mind swapping baits around; new locations, only two rods. 

[Catt]

3 hours ago, txchaser said:

when I tie this knot the loop part that it supposed to cinch on the top of the knot wants to flop around and be everywhere but the top of the knot when I cinch

 

Make dang certain you wet the line generously!

 

When cinching it down do you pull both ends or just the tag end?

 

Your description sounds to me like you're over heating the line. 

[txchaser]

33 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Make dang certain you wet the line generously!

 

When cinching it down do you pull both ends or just the tag end?

 

Your description sounds to me like you're over heating the line. 

I think I'm pulling the tag end, would have to go tie one to see what I'm doing. Definitely wet. Which way is it supposed to be (both or tag) on the palomar?

[NHBull]

I have had terrible luck with blue label, to the point that seaguar acknowledged the problem and replaced several spools.  I am not saying this is your problem, but crazy failures have plagued me with this line

[Catt]

 

[Brad Reid]

Interesting.  The weakest part of a line is always the first acute bend in a knot . . . assuming the line isn't otherwise flawed. Lines break at knots because the act of creating it stretches the fibers or material on one side, compresses them on the other. 

 

Flourocarbon failures owing to overheating is not the issue; fluorocarbon is less sensitive to heat than monofilament. It is just harder to form it into a tight knot that causes some failures . . . and people attribute that to line burning.

 

So, my guess is since you pulled back a "C" shape with some additional straight line beyond the "C" and toward the end, is that it didn't break in the knot . . . but slipped apart.

 

Palomar knots can slip apart, most knots can. What it lacks in friction, it makes up for by being a doubled line knot, that, and the fact that when you slip that bight over and around the hook or lure, it "anchors" the end of the knot better than knots with just a single terminating tag end clipped off.

 

It sounds to me like the knot was just old, needed re-tying.

 

I suppose a good rule is to visually check your line every so often, first, then at least visually inspect the knot, replace it after "X" number of fish are caught and certainly after a big fight with a large one, then always retie junction and terminal knots between fishing trips.

 

Brad

[Catt]

25 minutes ago, Brad Reid said:

Flourocarbon failures owing to overheating is not the issue; fluorocarbon is less sensitive to heat than monofilament. It is just harder to form it into a tight knot that causes some failures . . . and people attribute that to line burning.

 

Interesting since I just watched videos with Denny Brauer, Gary Klein, & KVD in which they all stated it does.

[junyer357]

Try a diffrent knot. Im a fan of a polamar on braid amd mono, but for flouro i prefer the "shaw grigsby youtube" knot. Also with flouro, slobber it up good, cinch it down snug, but dont pull the devil out of it, that will weaken it too. 

[Team9nine]

If tied correctly, Palomar knots don't slip. You also don't need to lubricate (though never a bad thing if you do) because there is no friction with one tied properly. It's the only connecting knot I've used in every type of line for over 20 years. 

 

What does happen though is that certain lines don't tie well with certain knots, for whatever reason. This is fairly common with many lines. And there is always the chance you tied a slightly improper knot - it happens. As such, you might test some other knots with your current spool of line to see if they all perform similarly, or retie a few Palomars. That would tell you whether it's the knot or the line. 

[Catt]

9 minutes ago, Team9nine said:

You also don't need to lubricate (though never a bad thing if you do) because there is no friction with one tied properly.

 

OK that's enough of that!

 

This is the second time I was typing the exact same thing & your answer pops up!

 

All 3 Pro stressed repeatedly tying a Palomar correctly is key.

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

 

OK that's enough of that!

 

This is the second time I was typing the exact same thing & your answer pops up!

 

All 3 Pro stressed repeatedly tying a Palomar correctly is key.

Tying ANY knot correctly is the key. And if you are tying it correctly (Palomar), there is no need to lubricate. I stopped doing it years ago...and don't cross the base lines  So far I've found two lines that don't like Palomars regardless.

[txchaser]

15 hours ago, Brad Reid said:

the fact that when you slip that bight over and around the hook or lure, it "anchors" the end of the knot better than knots with just a single terminating tag end clipped off.

 

Hmm, that's the part of tying that I was wrestling with anyway, the bight sitting on top of the knot. 

 

14 hours ago, Team9nine said:

or retie a few Palomars.

Great idea. I'll get some practice and I'll also do a pull test to see how much it can really take, at least on a fresh knot.

 

I've come to the conclusion that much like a plane crash, a big pile of small avoidable errors piled up. Poorly set drag and heavy stress over multiple fish eventually showed the failure to tie the knot well. 

 

Somewhat related:

1) has anyone done shock testing on knots and line, vs slow pull?

 

2) is there a definitive well-tested source for knots by line/brand/type/use? Seems important, but I could only find one source that did any meaningful amounts of testing, and that was only five runs per bracket (salt water site).  

 

Thank you all!

[Jcj90]

i use this line as leader material inshore fishing and never had any issues with 20 or 25lb. i use a clinch or improved clinch knot

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

2 hours ago, txchaser said:

Hmm, that's the part of tying that I was wrestling with anyway, the bight sitting on top of the knot. 

 

Great idea. I'll get some practice and I'll also do a pull test to see how much it can really take, at least on a fresh knot.

 

I've come to the conclusion that much like a plane crash, a big pile of small avoidable errors piled up. Poorly set drag and heavy stress over multiple fish eventually showed the failure to tie the knot well. 

 

Somewhat related:

1) has anyone done shock testing on knots and line, vs slow pull?

 

2) is there a definitive well-tested source for knots by line/brand/type/use? Seems important, but I could only find one source that did any meaningful amounts of testing, and that was only five runs per bracket (salt water site).  

 

Thank you all!

2) Definitive-- No

But there is KNOT WARS that tests knots head to head using mono FC and Braid

Example FISHnFOOL knot tested head to head against Miller knot --Grinner Knot-- and Palomar knot

 

[Brad Reid]

23 hours ago, Catt said:

 

Interesting since I just watched videos with Denny Brauer, Gary Klein, & KVD in which they all stated it does.

Well, they can certainly "out fish" me any day; doesn't mean, though, they are scientifically correct.

 

Fluorocarbon has less heat conductivity than monofilament. It does. So, to the extent that burning is an issue, it'd be more so with monofilament. 

 

Other than lubricating the line to assist in getting a knot properly tightened, water (spit, too) has a thermal conductivity 3X greater than that of fluorocarbon . . . so it absorbs and wicks away any heat issues. 

 

When you singe the end of a rope to keep its fibers from unfurling? Many of us lick our index finger and thumb, then tamp the burnt end to cool it off, terminate the heat.

 

Anyway, no, fluorocarbon is less, not more, sensitive to heat than mono.

 

Brad

 

 

[Brad Reid]

Gosh, I hope I am not "beating a dead horse" here but I want to explain why tying a knot, any knot, correctly is important.

 

So, most fishing "knots" rely on friction to hold them together. If the wraps lie perfectly against each other along their wrap lengths, it creates more friction resistance, more drag. If a sloppy knot crosses lines, the only friction occurs at the intersections, not along long circular wraps.

 

Analogy: If you are trying to start a fire rubbing two sticks together, you rub one perpendicular to the other, you don't rub them against each other long-wise, side by side. Why? Well other than concentrating the heat generated, it is because you can push and pull two crossed sticks rather easily (less friction). If you rub two sticks long-wise, there is too much friction interference, too much contact. 

 

This is exactly what we want in our knots, the most surface area of one piece of line coming into contact with another. Poorly tied knots limit friction to small intersections, criss-crosses. They pull apart much more easily.

 

Brad

[Catt]

17 minutes ago, Brad Reid said:

doesn't mean, though, they are scientifically correct.

 

I quite positive all 3 have done a little scientific research  ?

[fin]

On 12/27/2018 at 12:08 AM, txchaser said:

When I get it back, the end of the line has a 1/2 or so of a C-shape, with a straight part going up out the top of the C.

 

To me, that sounds like a slipped knot, not a break. A break is short, like a 1/8" curl. A slip is longer.

 

I used to use fluoro for leaders. I went through two rolls of line (that's a lot of leaders) without a problem and then on the third roll I started having problems with knots breaking and slipping. It was all the same brand and type of line. I ended up switching to mono, and that solved 90% of my problems. I suspect that third roll of fluoro was defective or damaged by heat, but I don't know.

 

I still occasionally have bad knots though, and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. It seems to me I'm doing it the same every time, but I must be doing something different. It's a mystery to me. My best advice is to test your knot really good before using it, and don't cut the tag too close, just in case.

[WRB]

This was probably pointed out in the vedio's the difference between a proper and improperly tied Palomar knot. You put the line through the hook eye and back trough creating a loop. The loop is tied into a simple overhand knot, the next 2 steps are critical; pull the loop end and both the tag end and main line to tighten snug up the overhand knot, do not pull tight, now the most important step put the hook, snap or lure through the loop without rotating the loop. If the loop is rotated it creates a twist that will  over heat the crossed over line when the knot is pulled tight as KVD demonstrated.

The curled line end discribed is a classic rotated loop failure flattening the line during the tightening knot step. Always wet your line and look for crossed line when tighteneing any fishing knot.

Tom

[WRB]

Different topic but related to the OP's opening statements that he didn't retie because he uses a snap or clip to fasten his lures. 

All plastics creep with time under pressure.  Fluorocarbon line and Nylon or copolymer monofilament lines are all plastic. Knots apply high compression forces creating creep and deforms wreaking the line. Every angler should retie knots every 24 hours if they want stronge knots because every knot weakens. If you notice any nicks or abrasion while fish you should retie before continuing to fish to reduce line failures. Set your drags at 1/3rd the line lb test, leader if using it, and apply addition pressure when needed using your thumb on a bait casting reel, your index finger agianst the spool with  spinning reels.

Tom

[Big Rick]

On 12/27/2018 at 9:36 AM, Team9nine said:

and don't cross the base lines 

THIS is the biggest reason a Palomar Knot fails. Because the one of the base lines is the MAIN line and if it kinks against the other line it will break under the pressure of a hook set. Also, keeping the over-hand knot at the very top with the loop until time to cinch it down keeps everything in place as well. Practice doing that a few times and it'll become second nature. FWIW, Brandon Palaniuk, 2107 AOY, did a video stating he uses the Palomar Knot exclusively regardless of line type..

[txchaser]

12 hours ago, WRB said:

 through the loop without rotating the loop. If the loop is rotated it creates a twist that will  over heat the crossed over line when the knot is pulled tight as KVD demonstrated.

The curled line end discribed is a classic rotated loop failure flattening the line during the tightening knot step. Always wet your line and look for crossed line when tighteneing any fishing knot.

Tom

Oh this is interesting - the vids were very focused on no cross in the eye of the hook, but I don't recall hearing about this. 

[NHBull]

There is a reason this topic comes up a lot......for many, Palomar and FC don't to play well.  I just don't understand  why folks continue to use it when there so many options.