Kayak pitching, sidearm. Rod length recommendations?

[bayvalle]

29 minutes ago, TOXIC said:

Let me make clear I do not fish from a yak.  I have but I do not do it on a regular basis.  I tutored my brother in law on bass fishing and he uses a yak only.  I set him up with 7 foot plus rods because that is what I use.  After a while he complained of lost fish.  I followed him in my boat to get a better idea of how he was fishing.  His yak is a sit-on style, he does not stand up.  When I watched him it was obvious that the longer rods really weakened his hookset.  Especially with a t-rigged senko where you need to move the hook through a lot of the bait.   Re-outfitted him with much shorter rods and his catch rate went up dramatically.  

Interesting. I found the same thing while in the seated position.

[Hook2Jaw]

@TOXIC, @bayvalle, I can't comprehend that.  A longer lever is going to move the hook at the end of the line more quickly and more powerfully.

[Brad Reid]

2 hours ago, Hook2Jaw said:

@TOXIC, @bayvalle, I can't comprehend that.  A longer lever is going to move the hook at the end of the line more quickly and more powerfully.

It is generally because if, like me, we are talking about a 5'6" rod, fishing from a kayak, using presentations with a taut line, we just don't have enough line out (rarely more than 50 feet) where the hook set is disadvantaged in terms of the speed of movement whipping the rod. And, with spinning gear, light wire hooks, most of us use sort of a sweeping hook set anyway.

 

Power? Put a 10 lbs. barbell plate on the garage floor attached to a string further attached to a 5'6" stick, then a 7' stick, see which lever has more lifting power.

 

Of course, we are speaking of less "negative" leverage as the fish is on the correct end of the wrench. If we needed power over fish, we don't often, a rod would be built like a shovel.

 

A-Jay and maybe others mentioned fishing vertically using short rods. If you are pulling a really big fish off the ocean floor, it better be short. And, you better hang on tight. 

 

In a kayak, two of our great advantages are stealth and close approaches to target areas. While we are certainly not fishing vertically most of the time, having only 30 to 50 feet of line out neutralizes many of the advantages of a 7'+ rod.

 

I do fish standing up quite a lot, still prefer the shorter rods though I'd definitely have a 7 footer on board if I am slinging for distance. 

 

Lots of good opinions here fitting rods to our circumstances!

 

Brad

[Hook2Jaw]

After a bit more research, you are most definitely correct, @Brad Reid.  I actually started googling long rods and leverage after I posted it and have decided it's a myth.  I wonder what length of handle, rod, and the optimum spread between hands on the handle provides the most efficient amount of leverage. 

 

I've actually tried fishing a relatively tight waterway here with a Zebco Dock Demon, of all things.  A 3' rod definitely doesn't move enough line to set a light wire 2/0 EWG.

 

So, while a longer rod doesn't provide leverage, it does move line quicker than a shorter rod.  This is fact.  I don't believe it takes much force to embed a sharp hook into fish flesh, which is personal opinion, but it will undoubtedly take more force than a shorter rod based on leverage.

 

All of that leads me to believe is that @TOXIC's brother in law and @bayvalle aren't getting a very powerful set due to the nature of kayaking, it's often unstable.   Also, they move much more readily than a larger craft or a man planted on the bank.  That give between the fish the the anchor point the set is arriving from will also weaken the set. I think I understand why you guys have much more success with shorter rods offering a more powerful hookset.

 

My kayak is 13'8" long, and a whopping 38" wide.  Falling into the water or flipping the platform never crosses my mind, so I haven't had much problem driving heavy gauge hooks into 30" redfish with 7'6" MHF inshore spinning rods.  I don't believe I'm going to have much trouble setting into a bass' mouth with 3"-12" longer than 7' from a kayak, but I can understand where other people would.

 

As far as stealth and the ability to get closer than a boat is concerned, @Brad Reid, I agree completely.  I'm just not willing to compromise the distance ability of longer rods to focus solely on close range fishing.  I believe I can get the best out of both worlds with rods ranging from 6'7" to 8" long.

[GeekOutdoors]

On 12/20/2018 at 4:26 PM, Hook2Jaw said:

Wow, @J Francho.  You must have excellent balance to do that on a consistent basis.  I'm regularly high above the ground balancing myself on tree limbs, but still can't manage to propel myself enough to keep me pitching at a decent clip.

 

Excellent review of that rod, as well.  I'm sure it is as much a pleasure in your hand as you make it out to be.  Attaining a heavy stick with the sort of two stage action you describe is a bit out of my price range, I do believe.  My budget regulates me to less than 100 dollar offerings.  I have a feeling it will bite me one day, and I will probably step into more expensive rods like the rest of you guys eventually.

 

After further thought, I think the 7'4" heavy frog rod will be much more accurate with my sidearmed pitches.  Sweeping 7'11" sideways sounds like a smoothbore musket shot, as I won't be able to line the upward sweep up with my target.

 

I think you're correct, though, in that I should add the longer rod to my arsenal for pitching apart big laydowns and pad fields from a more stationary position.  I'll be able to stand for that type of fishing.  I'll also undoubtedly need it for punching.

 

Thanks, man.

 

@TBAG, I understand the shorter rod concept.  They pass under overhanging obstacles much more easily.  I'm trying to devise a way to have my crate mounted rod holders swivel to a horizontal, out the rear of the boat setting so I can more freely bomb overhead casts.  For the time being I accomplish it by casting at a diagonal.  Still, I find the benefits of casting distance and leverage far outweigh any cons a long rod presents in a kayak.

I put my milk Crate with its rod Holder right behind the seat, they tangle less this way. Also, my second triple Rod holder is behind my left arm since im a righty. To store them horizontally I saw the new yakattack Rod holders are with that "setting" embedded with rod locked. Those are track-mountable also.

[Hook2Jaw]

8 hours ago, GeekFisher said:

I put my milk Crate with its rod Holder right behind the seat, they tangle less this way. Also, my second triple Rod holder is behind my left arm since im a righty. To store them horizontally I saw the new yakattack Rod holders are with that "setting" embedded with rod locked. Those are track-mountable also.

Mine is directly behind me as well, and will eventually carry up to 9 rods.  I'm eventually covering my crate with hard plastic to keep the sun and water out, building a lid, and retiring my current plano boxes for 3771 models.  They're much thinner than a typical 3700 but can still hold large crankbaits.

 

Once the plastic sides are on I've tinkered with the idea of adding brackets to the crate.  For instance, this guy:

By adding one vertically and another horizontally, I think I could dremel out the attachment hardware to connect to the Yak-Attack triple rod tube.

 

With such a setup I could face the three rods to my right and left on the box backwards, as well as moving the holders from the rear of the box to the top. 

[Brad Reid]

10 hours ago, Hook2Jaw said:

After a bit more research, you are most definitely correct, @Brad Reid.  I actually started googling long rods and leverage after I posted it and have decided it's a myth.  I wonder what length of handle, rod, and the optimum spread between hands on the handle provides the most efficient amount of leverage. 

 

I've actually tried fishing a relatively tight waterway here with a Zebco Dock Demon, of all things.  A 3' rod definitely doesn't move enough line to set a light wire 2/0 EWG.

 

So, while a longer rod doesn't provide leverage, it does move line quicker than a shorter rod.  This is fact.  I don't believe it takes much force to embed a sharp hook into fish flesh, which is personal opinion, but it will undoubtedly take more force than a shorter rod based on leverage.

 

All of that leads me to believe is that @TOXIC's brother in law and @bayvalle aren't getting a very powerful set due to the nature of kayaking, it's often unstable.   Also, they move much more readily than a larger craft or a man planted on the bank.  That give between the fish the the anchor point the set is arriving from will also weaken the set. I think I understand why you guys have much more success with shorter rods offering a more powerful hookset.

 

My kayak is 13'8" long, and a whopping 38" wide.  Falling into the water or flipping the platform never crosses my mind, so I haven't had much problem driving heavy gauge hooks into 30" redfish with 7'6" MHF inshore spinning rods.  I don't believe I'm going to have much trouble setting into a bass' mouth with 3"-12" longer than 7' from a kayak, but I can understand where other people would.

 

As far as stealth and the ability to get closer than a boat is concerned, @Brad Reid, I agree completely.  I'm just not willing to compromise the distance ability of longer rods to focus solely on close range fishing.  I believe I can get the best out of both worlds with rods ranging from 6'7" to 8" long.

For sure!

 

My "second" rod to carry out would likely be a long caster for tossing toward schooling bass we have here on Lake Athens.

 

I'm speaking of all the times we do short work in kayaks/canoes, taut line presentations when I speak of short rod advantages. When you float up to a boathouse, want to cast 10 or 20 feet under it, back into the shady parts, you just have to try a short rod to feel the difference.

 

I should add on the "power" topic that a parabolic or moderate tip is more "powerful" than a fast or extra-fast tip. As a big bass battles you on a moderate or more parabolic rod, the rod bends farther down and nearer the hands. In effect, its lever becomes shorter and shorter. I think most anglers think a softer, spongier action is less powerful. No. The harder that bass pulls against you, the more the rod's lifting point shortens. You gain more leverage than you do with a fast tip. 

 

Fast tips have "other" attributes. Power isn't one of them.

 

Yes, a kayak/canoe is less "anchored" in position so it moves a bit toward a hooked fish. All the more reason to want a rod that loads up well, and deep, to maintain pressure on the fish. We lose more fish when the rod straightens out, pressure comes off the line.

 

At least several experts recommend using one rod power down when fishing from a kayak for this very reason, to keep the rod more fully loaded. Where a MH might be best from the bank or a boat, a M might be better from a kayak. I have found this to be true.

 

For sure on hook setting. Proof? When you see someone, or get hooked yourself in a finger or thumb, it doesn't take much force or effort to penetrate human skin. Same for some areas of a fish's mouth . . . though there are some areas that are denser bone and cartilage. When you see rather violent hook sets, say for some jig presentations, at least part of the reason is they are trying to respond very fast before the fish spits it out. It is often more about time than force.

 

Brad

[Hook2Jaw]

33 minutes ago, Brad Reid said:

At least several experts recommend using one rod power down when fishing from a kayak for this very reason, to keep the rod more fully loaded. Where a MH might be best from the bank or a boat, a M might be better from a kayak. I have found this to be true.

Dragging a 1/2oz Chatterbait and a trailer is already enough of a chore with a 7' MHF rated to 1oz, the moment I step into the same model of rod a power lower, I'm only rated to 5/8oz.  Been there, done that.  I actually broke a 7' MHF Daiwa Aird-X rated to 1oz throwing a 1 1/2oz swimbait this year on the backcast.  I've also missed fish due to an overloaded rod on the retrieve.

 

I think the "experts" are wrong.  Plain and simple.  It's easier to increase the power of your set than limit the amount of lures you can throw from your kayak.  It's much easier on the equipment and the operator to use a reel and rod designed for the technique presented.

 

As for keeping a rod loaded throughout the fight becoming a more difficult task from a kayak as well, I could understand an inexperienced kayak angler having difficulties.  I can also understand someone who prescribed to the thought process that a kayak angler should use lighter gear and bank bound techniques on a lighter scale becoming used to it.

 

Ain't gonna be limiting myself to medium action spinning gear and a weightless senko rigged wacky because some "expert" thinks kayak angling is a limited method of fishing.  I've punched through surf, taking breakers to the chest, and trolled for fish in 80', 6 miles off the beach.  Right there on top of the reef with all the 30' boats.  I've also drug 1/2oz jigs in the middle of my closest lake.

 

The only thing truly limiting my fishing in comparison to a bass boat is the fact I top out 7 mph instead of 80.

[Brad Reid]

23 hours ago, Hook2Jaw said:

Dragging a 1/2oz Chatterbait and a trailer is already enough of a chore with a 7' MHF rated to 1oz, the moment I step into the same model of rod a power lower, I'm only rated to 5/8oz.  Been there, done that.  I actually broke a 7' MHF Daiwa Aird-X rated to 1oz throwing a 1 1/2oz swimbait this year on the backcast.  I've also missed fish due to an overloaded rod on the retrieve.

 

I think the "experts" are wrong.  Plain and simple.  It's easier to increase the power of your set than limit the amount of lures you can throw from your kayak.  It's much easier on the equipment and the operator to use a reel and rod designed for the technique presented.

 

As for keeping a rod loaded throughout the fight becoming a more difficult task from a kayak as well, I could understand an inexperienced kayak angler having difficulties.  I can also understand someone who prescribed to the thought process that a kayak angler should use lighter gear and bank bound techniques on a lighter scale becoming used to it.

 

Ain't gonna be limiting myself to medium action spinning gear and a weightless senko rigged wacky because some "expert" thinks kayak angling is a limited method of fishing.  I've punched through surf, taking breakers to the chest, and trolled for fish in 80', 6 miles off the beach.  Right there on top of the reef with all the 30' boats.  I've also drug 1/2oz jigs in the middle of my closest lake.

 

The only thing truly limiting my fishing in comparison to a bass boat is the fact I top out 7 mph instead of 80.

I think "all that" simply suggests, accurately, that it never pays to use a power and action that is not up to the task at hand. I agree. And, certainly if someone is breaking rods on back casts, he or she is way under-powered.

 

Most rods have rather decent lure weight ranges. Since I have mentioned the prowess of my little 5'-6" St. Croix, I'll use that rod manufacturer's data and note that its Mojo 7' MH has a range of 3/8s to 3/4s ozs.; and, its H in the same series is rated 3/8s to 1-1/2 ozs. 

 

The only thing the "experts" have said, not really all that stridently, is if you are in a kayak . . . say tossing something in the 1/2 to 3/4s ozs. range, it might be better to pick the MH over the H.

 

From there, it is just personal preference. I almost always feel more comfortable with the lowered powered rod when there is an "overlap" of acceptable rod powers for a particular presentation. I, for example, wouldn't even consider a heavy powered rod for a T-Rigged worm if it weighs 5/8s of an ounce.

 

Brad

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GeekOutdoors]

On 12/22/2018 at 6:14 AM, Hook2Jaw said:

Mine is directly behind me as well, and will eventually carry up to 9 rods.  I'm eventually covering my crate with hard plastic to keep the sun and water out, building a lid, and retiring my current plano boxes for 3771 models.  They're much thinner than a typical 3700 but can still hold large crankbaits.

 

Once the plastic sides are on I've tinkered with the idea of adding brackets to the crate.  For instance, this guy:

By adding one vertically and another horizontally, I think I could dremel out the attachment hardware to connect to the Yak-Attack triple rod tube.

 

With such a setup I could face the three rods to my right and left on the box backwards, as well as moving the holders from the rear of the box to the top. 

Here is my crate setup. Locknut in the rod holder and Bolt head inside the crate. Black zip ties take care of fastening the lower part of the Rod holders to the crate. Can carry up to 7 rods this way as I'm using one of the kayak Flush mount for another rod on my left. Right Flush mount is for my net.

[TOXIC]

Interesting discussion.  Science aside, my conclusions were drawn from actually watching him set the hook on fish with the different length of rods.  The longer rod while seated loaded up quickly and lost the snap of the hook set.  He also had much less of his body to use for leverage on the hook set.  When sitting it is waist up only and mostly isolated to his arms.  He was fishing a senko weightless on mono so there was slack line.  I saw that his hookset from the 3 o’clock position up to the 12 o’clock position was much quicker and stronger with the shorter rod.  I could have worked on his hookset technique and had him take up more slack before setting the hook or switched him to braid.....not my choice for a weightless senko.....but by simply shortening the rod length, his hookup ratio much improved.  Science be damned.?

[bayvalle]

On 12/22/2018 at 6:35 AM, Brad Reid said:

 

At least several experts recommend using one rod power down when fishing from a kayak for this very reason, to keep the rod more fully loaded. Where a MH might be best from the bank or a boat, a M might be better from a kayak. I have found this to be true.

 

Agree. Kayaks act somewhat like the drag on a reel taking pressure off the rod. Our best fisherman on the Chesapeake Bay are pulling 50" Striper on a boat with medium power rods. The key is not to high stick the rod and let the drag do the work. Used properly there is not much need for heavy powered rods on a Kayak.

[J Francho]

On 12/22/2018 at 6:35 AM, Brad Reid said:

Fast tips have "other" attributes. Power isn't one of them.

Power and taper are two completely different attributes.  My AVC70MM has LESS power than my AVC70HF.

 

As far as fishing from a kayak, shore, or boat, you would use the power and taper that matches the cover, bait weight, bait style, and technique.  If I'm pitching a 1 oz. punch rig into heavy milfoil, I'll be using my heavy cover rod, not one shade lighter because I'm in my kayak.