New Sidearm for New Police Officer

[Harold Scoggins]

Our son is a new police officer and doesn't like the Glock 40 he was issued. He is allowed to carry his own pistol and wants a 9mm. I want to buy him a pistol as an early Xmas present, but I have not touched a gun since retiring from the Army. (close to 25 years now) He is my only son and I want him to carry a pistol that will not fail him should he ever has to use it, God forbid. I just saw a reliability test on the S&W MP 2.0 on YouTube and it was impressive. Do you think it would be a good choice? Your input would be greatly appreciated.

[Gundog]

I really like the Sig Sauer p320 or 229. The 229 is expensive, ranging between $1000 to $1200 but the 320 is about $650 or less.

[BigAngus752]

I have been a Master Pistol Instructor and Master Rifle Instructor as well as a certified Armorer for numerous firearms manufacturers for over 20 years.  I also testify as an expert witness in both state and federal court regarding firearms evidence and I'm in my 27th year as a police officer in a major jurisdiction. Just to give you some info so you can decide if my advice is worth your time.  

 

Choosing a duty weapon is not a decision you can make by figuring out what is a "reliable" or "desirable" firearm or what someone else likes or prefers.  Kudos to his department for allowing him to choose his sidearm!!! I feel that is extremely important! 

Please ask your son the following:

 

1.  Why doesn't he like the Glock .40 (I assume it's a Model 22)?  The specifics of his answer is how you will search for the new sidearm.

 

2.  Has anyone ever helped him check his natural "grip angle"?  Everyone has a natural tendency to "point in" .  UNLOAD THE GLOCK.  Then check to make sure it's unloaded.  Then check AGAIN to make sure it's unloaded.  Have him hold the pistol in front of him in a two-hand grip in the "hunt" position (depressed muzzle position).  Tell him to pick a point on the wall at about eye level like a picture or wall light.  Tell him to close his eyes and visualize the point on the wall.  Have him quickly raise the pistol to a firing position WHILE KEEPING HIS EYES CLOSED.  Freeze.  Have him open his eyes and determine where his sight picture is in relation to the point on the wall.  Is the front sight way below the rear sight so his shot would go really low?  Is the front sight way above the rear sight so his shot would go really high?  Are his front and rear sights nearly level?  Different pistols have different grip angles.  Some of us naturally point in at a grip angle that matches the Glock grip angle.  Some of us naturally point in at an angle that matches a more upright grip angle such as a 1911.  Can he learn to shoot a pistol that does not match his natural inclination for grip angle?  Of course he can, but it may be easier (and more comfortable) for him to find a pistol that matches his natural "point in".  

 

3.  Is it the recoil/muzzle flip of the Glock that he doesn't care for?  He should try a 9mm Glock pistol.  Don't listen to the pop culture gun "experts" that bad mouth the 9mm.  The 9mm round in its different variants has killed more people all over the world than any other pistol round by about a multiple of 50.  I carry a Glock 17 (9mm).  No one I work with wants me to shoot at them so it must be a decent round.  All of our MFI's (Master Firearms Instructors) are trained to watch our shooters that have smaller hands or less grip/wrist/forearm strength for the tell-tale sign that the .40S&W round is not for them.  You can see that shooters with smaller hands/weaker grips will absorb the recoil from the .40 and the gun will actually twist slightly in their hands. Glocks have a right-hand twist to their polygonal rifling and a .40 round is actually hot enough to translate to the recoil causing the gun to twist as the muzzle rises if the shooter isn't strong.  In my experience it's actually more likely for a "less strong" shooter to be more comfortable with a .45ACP than a .40S&W.  The problem with the .45 becomes the size (circumference) of the grip.  If it is the recoil/muzzle flip that your son doesn't like, warn him that the polymer-framed pistols are much more forgiving than steel or aluminum-framed pistols.  Super slow-motion video shows that polymer-framed pistols bend and flex with every shot which translates to less felt recoil.  

 

4.  Is it the trigger that he doesn't like?  That's a no-brainer.  He need to try some different pistols until he finds one that he likes.  

 

Most importantly, don't look for a "bargain".  There are cheap guns, there are good guns that are excellent purchases for homeowners and people with concealed carry licenses, and then there are firearms that can take the abuse of a daily duty weapon.  Keep your manufacturer shopping list short, perhaps focused only on those pistol manufacturers that have built guns to compete for military contracts, etc.  

 

I'm happy to help in any way that I can.  Feel free to PM me also if you wish.  

[NHBull]

My son is a State Cop and the glock 45 is the pistol issued and there is no choice in the matter.

Lucky for him the training is excellent and the practice rounds put down range is considerable . Since then, he swapped out all his other pistols to glock and now is second nature.  If I was you, I would not try to make this choice for your son. He needs to put a several in his hands and send some rounds down range. 

 

[Harold Scoggins]

4 hours ago, BigAngus752 said:

I have been a Master Pistol Instructor and Master Rifle Instructor as well as a certified Armorer for numerous firearms manufacturers for over 20 years.  I also testify as an expert witness in both state and federal court regarding firearms evidence and I'm in my 27th year as a police officer in a major jurisdiction. Just to give you some info so you can decide if my advice is worth your time.  

 

Choosing a duty weapon is not a decision you can make by figuring out what is a "reliable" or "desirable" firearm or what someone else likes or prefers.  Kudos to his department for allowing him to choose his sidearm!!! I feel that is extremely important! 

Please ask your son the following:

 

1.  Why doesn't he like the Glock .40 (I assume it's a Model 22)?  The specifics of his answer is how you will search for the new sidearm.

 

2.  Has anyone ever helped him check his natural "grip angle"?  Everyone has a natural tendency to "point in" .  UNLOAD THE GLOCK.  Then check to make sure it's unloaded.  Then check AGAIN to make sure it's unloaded.  Have him hold the pistol in front of him in a two-hand grip in the "hunt" position (depressed muzzle position).  Tell him to pick a point on the wall at about eye level like a picture or wall light.  Tell him to close his eyes and visualize the point on the wall.  Have him quickly raise the pistol to a firing position WHILE KEEPING HIS EYES CLOSED.  Freeze.  Have him open his eyes and determine where his sight picture is in relation to the point on the wall.  Is the front sight way below the rear sight so his shot would go really low?  Is the front sight way above the rear sight so his shot would go really high?  Are his front and rear sights nearly level?  Different pistols have different grip angles.  Some of us naturally point in at a grip angle that matches the Glock grip angle.  Some of us naturally point in at an angle that matches a more upright grip angle such as a 1911.  Can he learn to shoot a pistol that does not match his natural inclination for grip angle?  Of course he can, but it may be easier (and more comfortable) for him to find a pistol that matches his natural "point in".  

 

3.  Is it the recoil/muzzle flip of the Glock that he doesn't care for?  He should try a 9mm Glock pistol.  Don't listen to the pop culture gun "experts" that bad mouth the 9mm.  The 9mm round in its different variants has killed more people all over the world than any other pistol round by about a multiple of 50.  I carry a Glock 17 (9mm).  No one I work with wants me to shoot at them so it must be a decent round.  All of our MFI's (Master Firearms Instructors) are trained to watch our shooters that have smaller hands or less grip/wrist/forearm strength for the tell-tale sign that the .40S&W round is not for them.  You can see that shooters with smaller hands/weaker grips will absorb the recoil from the .40 and the gun will actually twist slightly in their hands. Glocks have a right-hand twist to their polygonal rifling and a .40 round is actually hot enough to translate to the recoil causing the gun to twist as the muzzle rises if the shooter isn't strong.  In my experience it's actually more likely for a "less strong" shooter to be more comfortable with a .45ACP than a .40S&W.  The problem with the .45 becomes the size (circumference) of the grip.  If it is the recoil/muzzle flip that your son doesn't like, warn him that the polymer-framed pistols are much more forgiving than steel or aluminum-framed pistols.  Super slow-motion video shows that polymer-framed pistols bend and flex with every shot which translates to less felt recoil.  

 

4.  Is it the trigger that he doesn't like?  That's a no-brainer.  He need to try some different pistols until he finds one that he likes.  

 

Most importantly, don't look for a "bargain".  There are cheap guns, there are good guns that are excellent purchases for homeowners and people with concealed carry licenses, and then there are firearms that can take the abuse of a daily duty weapon.  Keep your manufacturer shopping list short, perhaps focused only on those pistol manufacturers that have built guns to compete for military contracts, etc.  

 

I'm happy to help in any way that I can.  Feel free to PM me also if you wish.  

I thank you for your reply. His complaint with the Glock 40 is the recoil and he would prefer a 9mm. He was talking to me yesterday about the S&W MP 9mm 2.0 and told me that some of the other officers are carrying them. He had the opportunity to fire one at a range this past week and he really liked it. I'm not sure if he knows what a "grip angle" is but I am going to copy your reply and msg him tonight. He qualified with a 9mm at the academy and he received a high score, so the 9mm would probably make more sense. I fully understand the "desirable" and going along with the crowd thing. That being said, reliability is an issue for me and I hope it is for my son too. I spent over 20 years in combat arms on every continent but two, and I know the sick feeling a soldier gets in his stomach when he doubts the reliability of his weapon. (First version of the M16 and poor ammo) I don't expect him to ever have to crawl through the mud, but should he ever have to retrieve his sidearm from the mud, I want his weapon to be able to perform without having to take time to clean it first...like I mentioned earlier, he is my only son.

 

You appear to be very knowledgeable when it comes to service weapons, so I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain as decides upon his choice.

[NHBull]

59 minutes ago, Harold Scoggins said:

I thank you for your reply. His complaint with the Glock 40 is the recoil and he would prefer a 9mm. He was talking to me yesterday about the S&W MP 9mm 2.0 and told me that some of the other officers are carrying them. He had the opportunity to fire one at a range this past week and he really liked it. I'm not sure if he knows what a "grip angle" is but I am going to copy your reply and msg him tonight. He qualified with a 9mm at the academy and he received a high score, so the 9mm would probably make more sense. I fully understand the "desirable" and going along with the crowd thing. That being said, reliability is an issue for me and I hope it is for my son too. I spent over 20 years in combat arms on every continent but two, and I know the sick feeling a soldier gets in his stomach when he doubts the reliability of his weapon. (First version of the M16 and poor ammo) I don't expect him to ever have to crawl through the mud, but should he ever have to retrieve his sidearm from the mud, I want his weapon to be able to perform without having to take time to clean it first...like I mentioned earlier, he is my only son.

 

You appear to be very knowledgeable when it comes to service weapons, so I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain as decides upon his choice.

I have several S&W 9's and have never had a malfunction.......never!  The trigger would need some work, but it's a small price to pay for confidence in a weapon

[BigAngus752]

1 hour ago, Harold Scoggins said:

I know the sick feeling a soldier gets in his stomach when he doubts the reliability of his weapon

X2 on that.  Fortunately most progressive police departments are now allowing officers to choose their own sidearm in addition to offering them excellent issue weapons like the Glock.  I consider the S&W pistols to be well designed and highly reliable.  The fact that he has shot one and felt comfortable with it is all you really need to know.  If he feels comfort and confidence then he will do well with it.  

 

Funny that you mention the first M16s...our department purchased 24 surplus M16s from D.O.D. for just a few bucks each.  We received them and found that they were all M16-A1s manufactured prior to 1968.  They were all full-auto (not burst triggers) but they still had the pencil barrels and shiny plastic stocks (and they were beat to crap).  Those pencil barrels are just shy of worthless.  We stripped them down and threw everything into a big junk box except the lowers.  We bought everything else new and built short-barreled entry guns on those lowers for the SWAT team.  Really didn't save any money....and I kept thinking about the guys stuck in that heck-hole Vietnam with those original AR15/M16s after their reliable, accurate, powerful infantry rifles were taken way from them.  

 

Message me anytime.  I'm happy to help, but I think he's got a decision made in his head already and it sounds like a perfectly reasonable, reliable choice to me.  

[sfpalatka]

I have been a Deputy Sheriff for over thirty years. I Retired once and got back in it. My first duty weapon was a 357 magnum. Then went to a 9mm glock. I love the glock, but not the performance of the 9mm ammo back then. The poor performance of the ammo caused me to go back to the 357 magnum. Later on down the line the Department bought us Glock 22 40cal. We kept them far a long time with good results. Now our Department just went back to the Glock 17. They tell us that the 9mm ammunition has came a long ways. As for the glock, I love it and never have had a problem with it. If you look at most of your firearm manufactures, the all make some sort of copy of a glock. 

[je1946]

If i were in law enforcement a 9mm would not be my choice of a weapon. Very little stopping power.  I would prefer a 45, 10mm or a 40 cal.  The State police in Ma have gone back to a SW M&P in 45. I've seen video of some big guys hit with a 9mm and although it slowed them, it didn't stop them from returning fire even after being hit. I own SW and they have never failed to function or cycle.  Another hand gun I like are the CZ handguns reliable and function quite well.

[Bluebasser86]

I carried a .40 Glock at my last department but my current department issues us 9mm Glocks and we don't have an option for on duty carry. Off duty we are allowed to choose though. The M&P Shield is a really popular sidearm with the guys here for off duty. 

 

I really like my .40 Glock (Glock 22 was what I decided to buy when I worked there). I shoot better with it, although I shoot well with both, plus it has better stopping power. 

[NHBull]

Not sure if money is a concern, but the price of ammo may enter the picture 

A day of training with a.45 takes a bite out of the wallet where 9mm can be had anywhere and cheap. I tried the 40 and found it to be a "snappy", expensive and harder to find round, which also brought  me back to the 9. 

While it is hard to argue the merits of the 45, if you don't have the perfect platform, getting the second round off quickly and on target can also challenging.......think this is why military folk have a fondness for the 1911.   That said, in today's world factoring in New bollistics, $, reliability option and the amount of bullets able to carry, one can see the benefits of 9mm

 

No intentions here of starting a caliber war, just pointing out why many municipalities have gone 9mm

[Way2slow]

I would make the same suggestion I make to anyone, even myself about picking a handgun.

Most of the larger indoor ranges have a large assortment of the popular make and models in a number of different calibers for rent.  I know of one local range that lets LE come in and try a clip or two of any one they want for free.  I've seen several that all they had to do was buy the ammo and they would let them try any gun they wanted for free.  They fully support their LE personnel.

Even if he had to rent the gun, it's only a few bucks.  So, go to a range, and start trying and shooting until a firm decision can be made.    

[NorcalBassin]

Definitely agree with the M&P recommendation and another well-respected option would be a Springfield XDs. If you want to see a really nice breakdown for either one or the side by side comparison, hickok45 does an exceptional job (1.4 million views).

 

 

[Jrob78]

Take him to a range that rents guns and let him try several to find what he likes and shoots well. There are many manufacturers that make reliable handguns these days.

[Harold Scoggins]

Well, my son settled on the S&W M&P 9mm with 5 inch barrel. He went to a range twice and fired multiple automatics before choosing the S&W. He had the best results with this gun, so I ordered it and it should be here tomorrow. I'm not too crazy about the color, (I'd prefer black.) but he's the one carrying it. Thanks to everyone who provided input.

[GReb]

FBI went back to 9 mm. 

 

Truth be told the “stopping power” between any of the 3 rounds is only contingent on shot placement. That is the most important factor followed by capacity. Theoretically a person should be more accurate on follow up shots with a 9 mm. And capacity for 9 mm is typically a few more per mag. 

 

Bottom line: carry whatever is most comfortable and performs the best for you

[NHBull]

Great choice!  I have 2.......and a little trigger work similar to what the FBI does will take it to a whole other level

[Harold Scoggins]

2 minutes ago, NHBull said:

Great choice!  I have 2.......and a little trigger work similar to what the FBI does will take it to a whole other level

The guy running the range mentioned a trigger replacement, is that what you're talking about?

[NHBull]

17 minutes ago, Harold Scoggins said:

The guy running the range mentioned a trigger replacement, is that what you're talking about?

What he is talking about will greatly improve the pull, but it is not the same as giving it to someone who specializes in it. I would do the suggested replacement and hold off on anything further......

[GReb]

2 hours ago, Harold Scoggins said:

The guy running the range mentioned a trigger replacement, is that what you're talking about?

If you’re talking about a S&W he’s talking about the Apex trigger kits. They are fantastic 

[AC870]

I have a Glock 23 in .40. It points and shoots great. 

I shot our local PD’s new Glock 17s over the summer. I want one. They’re sweet.