Weightless Finesse Setup (Baitcaster)?

[new2BC4bass]

1 hour ago, mrcimon said:

Thanks all for the recommendations and help.  I've made a choice, and I will take pictures and post when I receive the product!  

[TOXIC]

3 hours ago, CrankFate said:

This is true. A spinner can’t be beat here. But I swore off spinners years ago. And recommend that for everyone. As far as the braid goes, I rarely fish anything thicker than 15lb test braid on a baitcaster and go all the way down to 6lb. IMO, once you get used to braid, it fishes better than mono, co or fluoro on a baitcaster. I just never understand why people say it can’t be casted. The real problem is tying with it when it’s windy out. Super thin braid is impossible to tie if there’s any wind.

In true "finesse" applications the last thing you want is a no-stretch line like braid.  A leader doesn't give you that flexibility.  If I'm fishing finesse, I'm not making super long casts either. I get all the sensitivity I need from my setup.  Braid just does not fish my style in "finesse".  I keep putting it in quotes because everyone has a different definition of finesse.  

3 hours ago, CrankFate said:

 

 

[CrankFate]

2 hours ago, TOXIC said:

In true "finesse" applications the last thing you want is a no-stretch line like braid.  A leader doesn't give you that flexibility.  If I'm fishing finesse, I'm not making super long casts either. I get all the sensitivity I need from my setup.  Braid just does not fish my style in "finesse".  I keep putting it in quotes because everyone has a different definition of finesse.  

 

This is true. Everyone has a different definition or there are a few different definitions for “finesse.” I consider almost all of the fishing I do for fish that normally run under 5 pounds in less than 40’ of water to be “finesse” fishing, because I fish way thinner and lighter than what is recommended from the rod, to the reel, to the line, to the bait. 

[TOXIC]

21 minutes ago, BaitFinesse said:

 

Line twist.  Poor flourocarbon line mangement.  Slow ratios when burning a bait back from under a dock/target.  Swimming/cranking motions are better to baitcast gear. The one advantage of allowing the bait to fall vertically by opening the bail is now achieved with light weight spools running zero spool tension such as SV and Air spools.   

I'm not disagreeing with you but just pointing out why it doesn't work for me....

Line twist....I get minimal line twist with mono and about every 3rd trip spool it out to remove what little I do have.

Poor flourocarbon line mangement....I only use Fluro on baitcasters.  

Slow ratios when burning a bait back from under a dock/target......I don't "burn" Finesse baits.  

Swimming/cranking motions are better to baitcast gear.....I throw Flukes and that's a pretty twitchy, jerky bait on 6lb test mono.  

The one advantage of allowing the bait to fall vertically by opening the bail is now achieved with light weight spools running zero spool tension such as SV and Air spools......I'll take your word for it, I've never seen a baitcaster that can free feed line without overrunning.  

 

[fishwizzard]

I’m still having trouble working out when the line is actually free spooling off spinning reel.  Once the lure hits the water, the line is dragged down as well and will be laying on the water while the lure sinks, would not the drag from the water be the same on any kind of reel?

[fishwizzard]

I guess I’m still confused, because at no point have I ever left the bail open or the clutch disengaged when the lure is sinking, I follow the lure down with my rod tip or manually strip line If I feel like I want a little more slack before it hits bottom.  

 

I also rarely fish much deeper than say 10-15 feet, so maybe I’m just not fishing deep enough for this to be an issue at all. 

[Junger]

3 minutes ago, fishwizzard said:

I also rarely fish much deeper than say 10-15 feet, so maybe I’m just not fishing deep enough for this to be an issue at all. 

That's probably the case. There are a couple spots on my reservoir that drop down to like 30-40 feet along a bridge. I either have to use a spinning set up to let that cast get down vertically at the spot I want, or use a SV type baitcaster so that when the lure hits the water I can keep it disengaged. There's no way I can rip out line fast enough to keep up with the lure sinking without altering it's landing spot.

 

Pro Pic here: 

I would rather the position be "A" with either a spinning reel or SV type set up, instead of position "B" after ripping out line.

[fishwizzard]

Interesting.  I guess I have literally never run into that issue as I can’t think if any spot I fish where I am targeting deeper water close to where I am casting from.  When ever this has come up before I never inferred that people were leaving the bail open after the lure lands, thus my confusion. 

[TOXIC]

Being a long time senko fisherman in all of my tank seminars at Bass Pro I have shown how a baitcaster alters the fall of a weightless senko.  For "most" fishermen they can not/do not cast with a baitcaster in free spool mode.  Add to it the fact that if you peel the line off a baitcaster for a free fall you would have to keep your thumb on the spool of the baitcaster or you will over run 100% of the time if you are in freespool.  Yes there is a section of line that lays on the water with 2 entry points.  1 where your lure enters the water and 2 where your line from your rod tip lays on the water.  Side note....those are the 2 spots I line watch when senko fishing.  Using a baitcaster, while you are pulling line off manually to get the free fall, there's a good chance you will miss where you get 90% of your strikes which is on the fall.  The point is that a baitcaster pendulums the bait back to you whereas the spinning setup allows for a more vertical fall.  There will be some pendulum from a spinning setup because of the water tension as you pointed out (that's exactly why I use 6lb mono) but it will be much less than a baitcaster.  My main point is not that you can't fish it on a baitcaster but that you will miss more fish with one.  Now don't get me started on the retrieve because that presents a lot more advantages for a baitcaster.  Other finesse techniques like dropshot/shakeyhead/weightless fluke/Ned don't have the same issues but depending on how/where you are fluke fishing, sometimes you want a freefall.   

[GeekOutdoors]

31 minutes ago, TOXIC said:

Being a long time senko fisherman in all of my tank seminars at Bass Pro I have shown how a baitcaster alters the fall of a weightless senko.  For "most" fishermen they can not/do not cast with a baitcaster in free spool mode.  Add to it the fact that if you peel the line off a baitcaster for a free fall you would have to keep your thumb on the spool of the baitcaster or you will over run 100% of the time if you are in freespool.  Yes there is a section of line that lays on the water with 2 entry points.  1 where your lure enters the water and 2 where your line from your rod tip lays on the water.  Side note....those are the 2 spots I line watch when senko fishing.  Using a baitcaster, while you are pulling line off manually to get the free fall, there's a good chance you will miss where you get 90% of your strikes which is on the fall.  The point is that a baitcaster pendulums the bait back to you whereas the spinning setup allows for a more vertical fall.  There will be some pendulum from a spinning setup because of the water tension as you pointed out (that's exactly why I use 6lb mono) but it will be much less than a baitcaster.  My main point is not that you can't fish it on a baitcaster but that you will miss more fish with one.  Now don't get me started on the retrieve because that presents a lot more advantages for a baitcaster.  Other finesse techniques like dropshot/shakeyhead/weightless fluke/Ned don't have the same issues but depending on how/where you are fluke fishing, sometimes you want a freefall.   

That being said, you can still atenuate the retrieve disavantage of spinning by choosing 6ish:1 spinning reels. People often oversee the importance/possibility of choosing a suited ratio.

[NHBull]

15 hours ago, Junger said:

That's probably the case. There are a couple spots on my reservoir that drop down to like 30-40 feet along a bridge. I either have to use a spinning set up to let that cast get down vertically at the spot I want, or use a SV type baitcaster so that when the lure hits the water I can keep it disengaged. There's no way I can rip out line fast enough to keep up with the lure sinking without altering it's landing spot.

 

Pro Pic here: 

I would rather the position be "A" with either a spinning reel or SV type set up, instead of position "B" after ripping out line.

As your aware, we're I fish there is always wind. I think I can achieve an A- by adding loft to the cast and let nature do its thing. Surface tention will still add to the pendulum effect, but it is a reasonable compromise. Of course this only works in open water 

10 minutes ago, GeekFisher said:

That being said, you can still atenuate the retrieve disavantage of spinning by choosing 6ish:1 spinning reels. People often oversee the importance/possibility of choosing a suited ratio.

If you use your rod to move the bait instead of the real, the differences fade. There are still tons of guys that prefer slower speed BC's. I am not one, but recognize the fact. I usually use my rod to move the bait and high speed reel to pick up slack

[J Francho]

Why is the assumption that spinning reels take up less IPT than baitcasters?  You might want to look at the facts here.  My 6:1 2500 reel takes up over 35 IPT. 

[Junger]

3 hours ago, TOXIC said:

Being a long time senko fisherman in all of my tank seminars at Bass Pro I have shown how a baitcaster alters the fall of a weightless senko.  For "most" fishermen they can not/do not cast with a baitcaster in free spool mode. 

Do you have a schedule or something of your seminars? I'm very interested! Do BC's alter the fall trajectory because of the spool tension? If so is that something you think a SV spool would alleviate?

[TOXIC]

23 minutes ago, Junger said:

Do you have a schedule or something of your seminars? I'm very interested! Do BC's alter the fall trajectory because of the spool tension? If so is that something you think a SV spool would alleviate?

Any seminars I give now local are at the Cabela's in Gainsville or the Bass Pro in Hampton.  I have been in Hooker Tackle a couple of times as well.  I gave a lot of them when I was on Pro Staff for Bass Pro.  I now work for a Rep Group and get sent all over the country for both stores so I never know which location I will be at or what the schedule is.  Cabela's doesn't use their smallish tanks for demos.  I will be in the Cabela's in Gainsville, VA for their Spring Events more than likely but I will be repping products other than GYCB.  Always free to talk about them though.  

 

As for your question, yes it is the spool tension that you have to overcome by hand stripping the line out to get a straight fall.  One thing I didn't mention in my earlier post was that the line while on the water between the 2 points I mentioned will also feed horizontally dropping the lure at the point where it enters the water.  Any drag on a baitcaster spool will intensify the pendulum.   

[mrcimon]

So the gear is in, after doing some more reading.  I've spent more than I wanted but ran it by the girlfriend and she was cool (phew).  Did some more reading about the Daiwa SV spools (already have a Zillion SV TWS on another rod which I love) and there ability to toss light weight.  Read about some rods, and was looking for something incredibly sensitive, and this is what I came up with.  Bonus money well spent, all my other combo's are $400 or less.  This will be the only exception ever(for the foreseeable future at least).  Next investment is a boat.  

 

Spooled up with 8lb Seaguar InvizX

 

 

 

[Jrob78]

Nice combo!

[fishwizzard]

Very nice dude!  

[JustJames]

Congrat, super nice setup there.

[jbrew73]

You will no doubt be pleased with that setup.   Never mind all that crazy talk about spinning reels. ?

[Matt_3479]

On 9/20/2018 at 4:14 PM, mrcimon said:

So the gear is in, after doing some more reading.  I've spent more than I wanted but ran it by the girlfriend and she was cool (phew).  Did some more reading about the Daiwa SV spools (already have a Zillion SV TWS on another rod which I love) and there ability to toss light weight.  Read about some rods, and was looking for something incredibly sensitive, and this is what I came up with.  Bonus money well spent, all my other combo's are $400 or less.  This will be the only exception ever(for the foreseeable future at least).  Next investment is a boat.  

 

Spooled up with 8lb Seaguar InvizX

 

 

 

Awesome set up! Let us know what you think of the 852c. Might have a line on a 853c at a great that I was debating on pairing with the shimano aldebaran for a finesse casting set up. Little heavier but figured still might work nicely.