Taking things to the next level.

[rejesterd]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

 

 

His findings were simply that bass have the ability to learn and remember.  Putting bass in an aquarium doesn't change their brain capacity.  He didn't say "they'll never bite the same lure twice", but their memory does factor into it.  That's why fishing pressure is considered a thing by pros.  That's why KVD and others will talk about how important it is to "trigger the bite".  If bigger bass acted no different during the day vs night, everyone who fishes small ponds would be catching monsters every day they go out.. because you don't have to search for them in those places.  

[Catt]

32 minutes ago, rejesterd said:

Putting bass in an aquarium doesn't change their brain capacity

 

He's forcing an outcome ?

 

The bass has no choice but to see the lure presented to them every single time it's presented.

 

Even on highly pressured bodies of water how often does that same bass see a lure repeatedly?

[Mobasser]

I used to read a lot of stuff from Doug Hannon. He stated that the one bait that bass can't seem to remember is a plastic worm. Myself, I believe this.Also this has been a good, productive thread, and as I've read through, the thing that keeps coming back to me is location.If your throwing cranks and the bite shuts down, being able to locate a new spot and catch fish, regardless of what lure you use, is the hardest part of bass fishing.Doing this quickly- especially in tournament fishing is what makes a winner. But all of this applies to the weekend fisherman too

[Team9nine]

Ponder this: Do bass remember your lures?
Excerpt from Illinois Outdoor News
February 6, 2014  by  Ralph Loos Editor  

...studies by Keith Jones, director of research at the Berkley Fish Research Center, suggests that largemouth bass are “conditioned” in various ways. Along with memory research, Jones took a look at whether a fish becomes conditioned to avoid certain lures they might see swimming by over and over.

 

“There are certainly trends on the bass tours that would seem to suggest that,” Jones said of his study. “For example, spinnerbaits, once a dominant presentation for top pros, seem a useless bait today.

 

Swimbaits, frogs and other newer trends have replaced old lures.”

 

Jones, widely regarded as one of the world’s foremost bass experts, writes about that in his book “Knowing Bass: The Scientific Approach To Catching More Fish.”

 

Four types of learning

 

According to Jones, the four main methods of learning are associated learning, habitation, spatial and prey images.

He says to think of associated learning as “trial-and-error” learning.

 

“The fact that bass are capable of associative learning is proven by laboratory experiments where the animal is taught to link two types of stimuli, such as a certain colored light with an ensuing electric shock,”

 

Jones writes. “Bass readily learn these associations, both in the lab and in the field, although not as fast as some other species.”

 

Spatial learning involves bass learning to move around their environments, recognize landmarks or objects and stake out their territories. According to Jones, bass in his studies have been able to find their way through an underwater maze to reach a desired point.

 

Habituation learning involves bass gradually becoming less sensitive to specific stimulations. Jones says examples of this learning would include fish in an aquarium that no longer shy from people who walk by, or bass that learn to ignore boat traffic on a busy lake.

 

The fourth type of bass learning, prey images, is the ability to develop and recognize a shad or crawfish as prey.

“Given enough positive experience with a certain prey type, a bass will gradually come to actively seek out that specific prey,” Jones noted. “Prey species, for their part, often counter the bass’ efforts by changing their signature stimuli, often through the use of camouflage.”

 

Like humans, bass are capable of different types of learning, but individual bass learn at different rates.

Jones even cited a four-year study by the University of Illinois that documented recapture rates of largemouth bass. The average bass was caught twice each season, but some bass were caught up to 16 times in a single season.

Bass memory for lures

 

...Jones meticulously tested bass memory for lures, and his study suggests that indeed, bass do remember.

In the study, bass were allowed to strike a minnow lure for a five-minute test period. In the beginning, most strikes came in the first one to three minutes. By the end of the five-minute period, the bass had learned to ignore the lure because it provided no positive reward – meaning there was no food to be had by striking the lure. The bass were then divided into two groups, with no additional testing, for different lengths of time.

 

After two weeks, the bass in one group were re-exposed to the same lure, again for five minutes. The response of those bass was about one-tenth of what it was in the initial exposure. According to Jones, that indicated that the bass had retained a strong memory of the lure during the two-week interval. And it was a negative memory.

 

After two months, the second group of bass still tested below the original response level.

 

“The results show that under some circumstances, bass can remember lures for at least up to three months and perhaps much, much longer,” Jones concluded.

[Tennessee Boy]

There has been a ton of research on learning in Bass and other species in addition to Dr Jones work.  Everything I've read suggest fish can learn to avoid a hook to some degree.  None of it suggest they become uncatchable.  Fish react, they don't reason and a fish may learn to react with fear to a lure to some small degree.  That doesn't make them uncatchable,  it just makes them a little harder to catch.  

 

I went to the Cheesecake Factory last Saturday.  Even though I was stuffed I couldn't resist getting a big piece of cheesecake for dessert.  I was miserable for the next 10 hours and didn't go to sleep until 4:00AM.  I learned my lesson and will never do it again....and I say this every time I go to the Cheesecake Factory.  I repeat the same mistakes and I like to think I'm smarter than most bass.  The desire to eat is hard to overcome.  

[rejesterd]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

 

He's forcing an outcome ?

 

The bass has no choice but to see the lure presented to them every single time it's presented.

 

Even on highly pressured bodies of water how often does that same bass see a lure repeatedly?

But that outcome isn't fake.

 

No one knows how often bass see the same lure, but the point is, fishing pressure is considered real by pros for a simple reason: bigger bass won't hit the same lure over and over again throughout the day.  Throughout the year?  Yes, of course they do.  But memory and learning do factor into how they act.  It's not like they think critically about anything, but they're smart enough not to bite the same thing over and over when it doesn't fill their belly and pulls them out of the water.  And again, my main point isn't about fishing pressure, it's about bass becoming more nocturnal over time.  They learn that it's easier to ambush prey in lower light conditions.  So during the day, you generally have to trigger them more into biting.

[Catt]

When you're controlling all of the stimuli your forcing an outcome.

 

The bass has no choice but to be where is, it has no choice but to see the lure repeatedly put in front of it.

 

I do believe there are things in the wild that condition certain behavior. Weekend warriors absolutely effect behavior, bass are far easy to catch during the middle of the week than on weekends.

 

 

[Mobasser]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

When you're controlling all of the stimuli your forcing an outcome.

 

The bass has no choice but to be where is, it has no choice but to see the lure repeatedly put in front of it.

 

I do believe there are things in the wild that condition certain behavior. Weekend warriors absolutely effect behavior, bass are far easy to catch during the middle of the week than on weekends.

 

 

Yes. In 1989 I caught a bass of almost 9lbs.A grape Mann's 6" jelly worm Texas rigged.Its the only fish I ever mounted. When the taxidermest opened this fish, there were 3 2" crawfish in her stomach- 2 were partially decomposed. Also, a 2" piece of plastic worm, no hook or line attached. Even with all this, that fish still ate my plastic worm.But, the big question is why? Was this just the normal feeding habit of this bass. Was she still hungry, or just being an opportunist? Obviously, she had eaten plastic worms before - at least once.But how much time elapsed between this?For all these years, when I look at my old mount I still wonder about this. One of the ultimate questions in bass fishing for sure.I too think the there are some things in nature that condition behavior too. 

[Choporoz]

Science and experimentation without controls is another name for guessing

[Catt]

11 minutes ago, Choporoz said:

Science and experimentation without controls is another name for guessing

 

I do have a minor degree in the Philosophy of science, currently studying Epistemology & Empiricism.

 

While I aint a marine biologist I do understand scientific research.

[mattkenzer]

9 minutes ago, Catt said:

currently studying Epistemology & Empiricism

Don't think for one minute i didn't have to Google that ....

[greentrout]

Smart Bass? Dumb Bass?

By Ronald F. Dodson, Ph.D.

 

https://www.bassresource.com/fishing/smart_bass.html

 

In Mississippi's small lakes Florida strain are stocked with the number 1 goal to grow trophy class LMB...

 

good fishing...

[J Francho]

30 minutes ago, Choporoz said:

Science and experimentation without controls is another name for guessing

Therein lies the rub.  You can't always apply a theory to wild fish due to all the variables, and isolation of those variables removes the wild aspect.  All we can learn from lab experiments is that the results are possible, but that doesn't mean it's actually happening in the wild.

 

Pretty cool discussion.

 

 

Also, I'm qualified to answer because I have a degree in hard knocks.

[Tennessee Boy]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

I do have a minor degree in the Philosophy of science, currently studying Epistemology & Empiricism.

Now I don't see any possible way that studying epistemology can help you catch more fish.  Empiricism....maybe if you believe in my time on the water theory. ?

[J Francho]

15 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Now I don't see any possible way that studying epistemology can help you catch more fish.

I'm skeptical.

[OCdockskipper]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

While I aint a marine biologist I do understand scientific research.

...And you slept at a Holiday Inn last night...?

[Mobasser]

4 hours ago, Team9nine said:

Ponder this: Do bass remember your lures?
Excerpt from Illinois Outdoor News
February 6, 2014  by  Ralph Loos Editor  

...studies by Keith Jones, director of research at the Berkley Fish Research Center, suggests that largemouth bass are “conditioned” in various ways. Along with memory research, Jones took a look at whether a fish becomes conditioned to avoid certain lures they might see swimming by over and over.

 

“There are certainly trends on the bass tours that would seem to suggest that,” Jones said of his study. “For example, spinnerbaits, once a dominant presentation for top pros, seem a useless bait today.

 

Swimbaits, frogs and other newer trends have replaced old lures.”

 

Jones, widely regarded as one of the world’s foremost bass experts, writes about that in his book “Knowing Bass: The Scientific Approach To Catching More Fish.”

 

Four types of learning

 

According to Jones, the four main methods of learning are associated learning, habitation, spatial and prey images.

He says to think of associated learning as “trial-and-error” learning.

 

“The fact that bass are capable of associative learning is proven by laboratory experiments where the animal is taught to link two types of stimuli, such as a certain colored light with an ensuing electric shock,”

 

Jones writes. “Bass readily learn these associations, both in the lab and in the field, although not as fast as some other species.”

 

Spatial learning involves bass learning to move around their environments, recognize landmarks or objects and stake out their territories. According to Jones, bass in his studies have been able to find their way through an underwater maze to reach a desired point.

 

Habituation learning involves bass gradually becoming less sensitive to specific stimulations. Jones says examples of this learning would include fish in an aquarium that no longer shy from people who walk by, or bass that learn to ignore boat traffic on a busy lake.

 

The fourth type of bass learning, prey images, is the ability to develop and recognize a shad or crawfish as prey.

“Given enough positive experience with a certain prey type, a bass will gradually come to actively seek out that specific prey,” Jones noted. “Prey species, for their part, often counter the bass’ efforts by changing their signature stimuli, often through the use of camouflage.”

 

Like humans, bass are capable of different types of learning, but individual bass learn at different rates.

Jones even cited a four-year study by the University of Illinois that documented recapture rates of largemouth bass. The average bass was caught twice each season, but some bass were caught up to 16 times in a single season.

Bass memory for lures

 

...Jones meticulously tested bass memory for lures, and his study suggests that indeed, bass do remember.

In the study, bass were allowed to strike a minnow lure for a five-minute test period. In the beginning, most strikes came in the first one to three minutes. By the end of the five-minute period, the bass had learned to ignore the lure because it provided no positive reward – meaning there was no food to be had by striking the lure. The bass were then divided into two groups, with no additional testing, for different lengths of time.

 

After two weeks, the bass in one group were re-exposed to the same lure, again for five minutes. The response of those bass was about one-tenth of what it was in the initial exposure. According to Jones, that indicated that the bass had retained a strong memory of the lure during the two-week interval. And it was a negative memory.

 

After two months, the second group of bass still tested below the original response level.

 

“The results show that under some circumstances, bass can remember lures for at least up to three months and perhaps much, much longer,” Jones concluded.

This is interesting too. The " trends" come and go.Now "froggin" is hot. Spinnerbaits are not used as much. Have bass become conditioned to spinnerbaits, or have they just gone out of style? Can they become conditioned to frog baits? Most are fished over heavy thick cover where a bass may not even get a good look at them.Hollow frog baits are not new, having been around for decades.This is simply a popular fad in fishing now.With certain baits, it's a " now or never " strike. I don't really think bass can become conditioned to this type of bait.Maybe on a small pond, if that's all you throw, on big lakes probably not.Fast reaction strikes are different.The fish don't have as much time to look these baits over.

 

[Team9nine]

7 minutes ago, Mobasser said:

This is interesting too. The " trends" come and go.Now "froggin" is hot. Spinnerbaits are not used as much. Have bass become conditioned to spinnerbaits, or have they just gone out of style? Can they become conditioned to frog baits? Most are fished over heavy thick cover where a bass may not even get a good look at them.Hollow frog baits are not new, having been around for decades.This is simply a popular fad in fishing now.With certain baits, it's a " now or never " strike. I don't really think bass can become conditioned to this type of bait.Maybe on a small pond, if that's all you throw, on big lakes probably not.Fast reaction strikes are different.The fish don't have as much time to look these baits over.

 

Yeah, I held off buying a Chatterbait for years because I thought the bass would easily get conditioned to them within a year or two - that turned out to be a bad decision 

[J Francho]

Frogs have been hot for a decade, and in my experience, spinnerbaits always work when they do.

[Mobasser]

6 minutes ago, J Francho said:

Frogs have been hot for a decade, and in my experience, spinnerbaits always work when they do.

Yes, both have always been good

5 hours ago, Team9nine said:

 

 

[Catt]

4 hours ago, Choporoz said:

Science and experimentation without controls is another name for guessing

 

Science does have controls

 

Operational (Observational) Science: a systematic approach to understanding that uses observable, testable, repeatable, and falsifiable experimentation to understand how nature commonly behaves.

 

The role of the human is to observe not interfere ?

[Todd2]

Running a Spinnerbait repeatedly past tank fish wouldn't exactly reproduce real world scenarios but it does give some insight into Bass behavior. The problem ( which is good for us) with that is every Shad, Bream, or Crawdad they suck in "reprograms" the fish that moving objects are tasty. At least that's how I picture it working.

[Catt]

20 minutes ago, Todd2 said:

Running a Spinnerbait repeatedly past tank fish wouldn't exactly reproduce real world scenarios but it does give some insight into Bass behavior. The problem ( which is good for us) with that is every Shad, Bream, or Crawdad they suck in "reprograms" the fish that moving objects are tasty. At least that's how I picture it working.

 

That's pretty accurate  ?

 

[Mobasser]

21 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Science does have controls

 

Operational (Observational) Science: a systematic approach to understanding that uses observable, testable, repeatable, and falsifiable experimentation to understand how nature commonly behaves.

 

The role of the human is to observe not interfere ?

Agree Catt. How can you test anything without some control? Just setting up is control, before the test is even started. Performing an accurate test on how well fish can remember and reject certain lures would take a long time.

[WVU-SCPA]

There is a lot of good points in this thread.  Catt's point of knowing what is going on in body of water is spot on. 

 

We have a weekly "lunker" tournament on a 340 acre lake that is very predictable. If you went back and plotted the biggest fish caught each week over the last 3 years you would absolutely see a pattern for location, time of year, and technique.

 

There would be anomalies,  but that's why it is still called fishing and all the pros don't have accounting degrees.  However you can increase your probability of catching bigger fish by learning the who, what, when, where of the lake.