Taking things to the next level.

[TOXIC]

My problem with "controlled" experiments is that the results are only good in that controlled environment.  The tank experiments don't include changes in Barometric Pressure, Moon Phase, water color, water current, water temprature, structure, vegetation, spawn cycle or any other of a thousand variables that change in any body of water during any number of events or seasons.  It only proves that bass in that controlled environment, with those conditions, react that way.  

[Team9nine]

That's the difference between pure science and applied science. Initially, you have to be able to control the variables. 

[Catt]

Applied science is the application of existing scientific knowledge to practical applications, like technology or inventions. Within natural science, disciplines that are basic science, also called pure science, develop basic information to predict and perhaps explain and understand phenomena in the natural world

[A-Jay]

Been following this one . . .

Plenty of superior view points offered.

Almost Dead of Winter-like in it's thoroughness. 

When it comes to bass & learning 'the likelihood and or ability' might come down to survival instincts vs the ability to reason.   Applying human characteristics to other species although common, seems insulting to both.

I do believe it's seriously counter productive when training my dogs. 

I could not survive is their world and without thumbs most anything else is doomed in mine. 

And despite having some basic survival & self preservation skills as well as the ability to reason (so I'm told),  I've been known to step into the 'knucklehead line' far more often than I'd like to admit. 

A-Jay

 

[Tennessee Boy]

It's very important to remember that scientific experiments are conducted to prove a hypothesis.  I think all Jones was trying to prove was that a bass is capable of learning to recognize a fishing lure and that it can change their behavior for two months or longer.  My personal conclusion from reading his book is that he proved his point and it's something I should keep in mind as a fisherman.  I assume that fish in the wild have the same learning capacity as fish in the lab.  It seems reasonable to expect that the complex world that fish experience in the wild would make learning more difficult.  Dr Jones exposed fish to a single lure for five minutes,  I would assume that some fish on some lakes might get much more exposure to lures over a lifetime and this might improve their chances of learning to recognize lures.  Exactly how his research translate to the real world and if and how we should change our fishing because of it is a judgement we all have to make.  To me it's all just more valuable information to consider as I pursue these fascinating creatures that I've spent so much of my life trying to understand.  

 

I've really enjoyed reading everyone else's thoughts on this research.  This is good stuff.

[DINK WHISPERER]

But does every fish have the same capacity to learn or are there dumb ones like in human society? ?

[Tennessee Boy]

15 minutes ago, DINK WHISPERER said:

But does every fish have the same capacity to learn or are there "slow" ones like in human society? ?

Dr. Jones' learning experiments tested bass in groups of six and I don't think he says much about the differences in individual fish.   As @Team9nine has already mentioned in this thread,  some research on recapture rates have found large differences in the number of times individual fish are caught in a season.  Is this because they are dumb or just more aggressive?  Someone smarter than me will have to answer that.

[Alan Reed]

I have never seen a large bass coming up to explore my kayak in a lake. However regularly I have smaller younger bass coming up to check out my kayak.

On some of our heavily floated rivers the bass don’t seem to be phased by tuber and kayakers that pass through seemly in a constant stream on the weekend throughout the summer.

Have the larger bass also learned to be cautious when one of our boats comes into the area because we are likely trying trying to catch them but on the river they have been conditioned to not be concerned?

 

[Catt]

My question has always been, if bass "learn" not hit lures, why we still catching em on the same lures?

[12poundbass]

26 minutes ago, Alan Reed said:

I have never seen a large bass coming up to explore my kayak in a lake. However regularly I have smaller younger bass coming up to check out my kayak.

On some of our heavily floated rivers the bass don’t seem to be phased by tuber and kayakers that pass through seemly in a constant stream on the weekend throughout the summer.

Have the larger bass also learned to be cautious when one of our boats comes into the area because we are likely trying trying to catch them but on the river they have been conditioned to not be concerned?

 

Fish are curious. Wayne P posted this a year or more ago. It's pretty interesting. 

 

 

[Alan Reed]

25 minutes ago, Catt said:

My question has always been, if bass "learn" not hit lures, why we still catching em on the same lures?

Do you believe the day before a tournament we should not continue catching fish on our prime spots for the tournament?

 

I certainly don’t know the answer to these questions and there is a lot of conflicting information out there.

[Tennessee Boy]

I just pulled out the book to make sure I've got this right.  Several groups of six bass were allowed to freely strike an artificial minnow for five minutes.  The bass as a group hit the lure twenty four times on average.  Half of the groups were retested two weeks later and they hit the same lure at one tenth the rate as in the first test.  The other half of the groups were tested after three months and hit the lure a little more.  It looks like they averaged about four strikes on the lure according to the graph.

 

Think about what it would mean if the results were exactly the same in the wild.  You fish a pond that has never been fished.  You throw a minnow lure in a spot that has six fish.  You should get twenty four opportunities to catch a fish.  Of course as you catch them the number of strikes would be reduces.  It's safe to say you should catch several of the fish with a good chance of catching all six.

 

Now what if you are fishing on a pressured lake and you throw the same minnow lure in a spot that has six fish that have been educated to the same level as the ones in the experiment.  You should expect two to four strikes if you don't hook any of them. We don't know if the strikes were concentrated to a few fish in the experiment or if they were evenly distributed among the six.  You should probably expect to catch one for sure,  maybe as many as four in this scenario.

 

Jones' results do not suggest that none of us should be catching any fish.  I have no idea what percentage of the fish that see my lure actually strike it.  I'm guessing it's less than one in six.  So real life might be worse than the results from the lab.

[Mobasser]

In Team9nines post, bass could possibly remember baits from 3 months ago. If this is correct, the fish that hit in June could know to reject a lure in late August.To observe bass over a longer period, in a natural environment, would be HUGE! We have cameras, divers, etc to observe fish for shorter periods in their natural envireoment. We've seen these things. But to watch how fish react for possibly up to a year with normal feeding habits, and with artificial lures? As far as I know, this hasn't been done yet.Being able to observe them in their natural surroundings, just doing their thing, would change fishing forever. 

[Tennessee Boy]

13 minutes ago, Alan Reed said:

Do you believe the day before a tournament we should not continue catching fish on our prime spots for the tournament?

That's a great question.  I know some people fish their spots but try to shake off the fish if they get hit.  Could this teach the fish that the lure is not real? ?

[Catt]

15 minutes ago, Alan Reed said:

Do you believe the day before a tournament we should not continue catching fish on our prime spots for the tournament?

 

Why not?

 

No difference than fishing a 3-4 day tournament.

 

I've been fishing Toledo Bend for close to 50 yrs, I was catching em ring worms back then & I'm catching on ring worms today. I was catching on Stanley's spinnerbaits back then & I'm catching em on Stanley's spinnerbaits today. I was catching em on silver black back Rat-L-Traps back then & I'm catching em on silver black back Rat-L-Traps today's.

 

I'm also catching em the same structure today as I was 50 yrs ago.

 

I'm not alone, there are 300 tournaments a year on Toledo Bend/Rayburn with most having at least 100 anglers per tournament...do the math!

 

Bass are still hitting the same lures, although many are now a different name brand.

[BassNJake]

3 minutes ago, Alan Reed said:

I certainly don’t know the answer to these questions and there is a lot of conflicting information out there.

That's because it's fishing. Fishing is all about conflicting information.

What works today may or may not work tomorrow.

What works for 1 person does not for another at the same body of water.

 

To move to the next level, one must understand what level they are on.

If you're consistently finishing at the top; you have established that you can find and catch fish.

The next step is to fine tune your presentations in and around the spots you are already catching fish.

Be more thorough in recording the information from the bigger catches.

Put that data together to try and find some similarities surrounding your better catches.

 

On my lake the fish will move out toward the main channel when they are pulling water creating current.

Often you will find fish off of the points extending in the main channel. You can run this pattern all day, everyday when they are pulling water. 

 

Thats all well and good if you want to have a decent finish and end up middle of the pack.

 

To win you find some of these points but they also need to have a channel bend along with scattered rock extending into the main channel. Now, you mark about 2 dozen of these and go running because there are always boats fishing the points and often it is a timing deal. Almost all of my biggest fish have come off of what they call the spot on a spot.

 

This is my simplified approach to tourney fishing:

Find the bait > find the fish > examine and break down the spot > find the spot on the spot = catch bigger fish

[Alan Reed]

5 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Why not?

 

No difference than fishing a 3-4 day tournament.

 

I've been fishing Toledo Bend for close to 50 yrs, I was catching em ring worms back then & I'm catching on ring worms today. I was catching on Stanley's spinnerbaits back then & I'm catching em on Stanley's spinnerbaits today. I was catching em on silver black back Rat-L-Traps back then & I'm catching em on silver black back Rat-L-Traps today's.

 

I'm also catching em the same structure today as I was 50 yrs ago.

 

I'm not alone, there are 300 tournaments a year on Toledo Bend/Rayburn with most having at least 100 anglers per tournament...do the math!

 

Bass are still hitting the same lures, although many are now a different name brand.

I don’t know, just seems to be widespread through out all levels and fishing communities. Maybe everyone is wrong.

[Catt]

2 minutes ago, Alan Reed said:

I don’t know, just seems to be widespread through out all levels and fishing communities. Maybe everyone is wrong.

 

The thought process of having a "off limits" time frame before a tournament was to allow for found patterns to change there by leveraging the playing field.

 

Down here when pre-fishing we don't stick em...we shake em off!

[Alan Reed]

2 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

The thought process of having a "off limits" time frame before a tournament was to allow for found patterns to change there by leveraging the playing field.

 

Down here when pre-fishing we don't stick em...we shake em off!

Why shake them off if they don’t learn?

[J Francho]

14 minutes ago, Alan Reed said:

Why shake them off if they don’t learn?

The stress of catch and release might be what keeps them from biting again.  The idea is they might bite the next day.

19 minutes ago, Catt said:

Down here when pre-fishing we don't stick em...we shake em off!

I hate it in pre-fishing when I decide to stick a fish, and it's a brute.  Oops, stuck the wrong one!

[scaleface]

3 hours ago, Alan Reed said:

I have never seen a large bass coming up to explore my kayak in a lake. However regularly I have smaller younger bass coming up to check out my kayak.

On some of our heavily floated rivers the bass don’t seem to be phased by tuber and kayakers that pass through seemly in a constant stream on the weekend throughout the summer.

Have the larger bass also learned to be cautious when one of our boats comes into the area because we are likely trying trying to catch them but on the river they have been conditioned to not be concerned?

 

I have had large un-pressured smallmouths follow my canoe around like pet dogs .  Best not allow a lure hang off the side or a rod and reel might be lost , talking this from experience . When the news of this fishery got out to the  bass fishing world  ,that type of behavior ended . 

[Team9nine]

6 hours ago, Catt said:

Applied science is the application of existing scientific knowledge to practical applications, like technology or inventions. Within natural science, disciplines that are basic science, also called pure science, develop basic information to predict and perhaps explain and understand phenomena in the natural world

 

Says who, you or Wikipedia   just giving ya' a hard time...

 

5 hours ago, DINK WHISPERER said:

But does every fish have the same capacity to learn or are there dumb ones like in human society? ?

 

No, some are dumber than others...

 

4 hours ago, Alan Reed said:

Do you believe the day before a tournament we should continue catching fish on our prime spots for the tournament?

 

I certainly don’t know the answer to these questions and there is a lot of conflicting information out there.

 

Yes and no.

No, because any fish you catch the day before is one you likely won't catch the next day. Some exceptions like bedders, etc.

Yes, because I don't believe the exact same fish stay in the exact same spot and have the exact same disposition from day to day. The fish you catch the day before likely wouldn't be sitting right there and catchable the next day. So, if that actually occurs, it doesn't matter whether you stick them or not.

[WRB]

On August 25, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Alan Reed said:

There seems to be a lot of information available for the beginning bass fisherman and how to get started and technique specific instruction. There is also a lot of information on seasonal movements and position on any given body of water to identify thr high percentage areas.

 

As a tournament Angler the obvious goal is to move to from catch more bass to catching more bigger bass. It is just trial and error on the water?

Both!

I know this isn't the answer you are looking for because there isn't a another answer.

My goal as a bass angler since a kid was catching big bass and became successfull doing it. Catching big bass consistantly requires fishing for them and I know that sounds contrite but it's true, you must dedicate yourself to that goal.

Tournament bass anglers have a different goal to 5 catch bass that weigh enough to earn a check, winning means you caught a heavier 5 bass limit then everyone else.

Your goal isn't targeting the biggest bass in the lake, it's targeting those adult size bass that weigh 4 lbs to 6 lbs in lieu of 2 lbs to 3 lbs. 

Nearly every decent bass lake that supports tournaments has a good population of 4 lb to 6 lb adult size bass that few anglers target, those anglers that do are winning tournaments.

The adult bass can eat whatever they choose and that usually is larger size baitfish or any abundant prey source in locations that support a group of bass this size.

The biggest bass in the lake rarely group up with the aggressive 4 to 6 lb size bass unless the prey source is located in the same area.

Here is my suggestion;

1. Learn about adult size bass behavior.*

2. Learn about the preferred prey sources for adult size bass where you fish.

3. Use lures the have similar profile, color as the prey and can be presented effectively at the depth and location where the prey is abundant.

No panacea, no short cuts, lots of trail and error and time on the water.

Tom 

* Bill Murphy, In Pursiut of Giant Bass is a good book on bass behavior. 

 

[Catt]

18 hours ago, Alan Reed said:

Why shake them off if they don’t learn?

 

Tournament fishing is what solidified in my mind if bass do remember lures it aint for long!

 

During pre-spawn through spawn the number of anglers on Toledo Bend on any given day is easily a thousand or more. It is very common to catch bass that show signs of being caught recently & caught more than once. 

 

I have on one occasion caught a healthy 4# bass on a spinnerbait with a spinnerbait hanging out it mouth.

 

I've caught dozens of bass of various sizes with worm hooks in their gullet.

 

 

15 hours ago, Team9nine said:

Says who, you or Wikipedia   just giving ya' a hard time..

 

Philosophy of science text books ?

 

As stated before scientific research does have controls 

 

 

[Alan Reed]

8 hours ago, Catt said:

 

Tournament fishing is what solidified in my mind if bass do remember lures it aint for long!

 

During pre-spawn through spawn the number of anglers on Toledo Bend on any given day is easily a thousand or more. It is very common to catch bass that show signs of being caught recently & caught more than once. 

 

I have on one occasion caught a healthy 4# bass on a spinnerbait with a spinnerbait hanging out it mouth.

 

I've caught dozens of bass of various sizes with worm hooks in their gullet.

 

 

 

Philosophy of science text books ?

 

As stated before scientific research does have controls 

 

 

I have caught the same bass with the same lure within 30 minutes. I knew it was the same bass because it broke me off right at the boat and still had the other  lure in its mouth.

I had the same thing happen recently with a 5 lbs bass however this one I did get in the boat and all the marking were the same. 

We’ve all caught the fish that is missing most of one or more of its cheeks because. It has been hooked so many times.