Guide Size for Braid to Leader

[LionHeart]

Hey guys, I'm having a rod made by ALX and am wondering about what size line guides I should get.  The rod is being built on a ZOLO model blank, and I understand that they typically use #5 guide size for the length of the rod.  I will be using 50 lb. braid to 20 lb. leader (FG) on this setup and am concerned about the leader knot passing the guides.  I plan to run a 6 foot leader so it will definitely go through every guide while reeling in and casting.  I was able to see this rod in a local Cabelas and the guides look tiny compared to what I am used to.

 

I sent an email to ALX to inquire about this, and was told that I should expect no issues, however I didn't specify the size line that I use.  Anyway, to me this is a pretty big purchase, so I'm being pretty particular.  Should I go up to a #6 guide?  I'd just hate to have the rod made, then find out I should have bumped up to #6 size guides from the beginning.  

 

Any advice at all would be very appreciated. 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

The 5 will pass that connection easily. 

[LionHeart]

Very reassuring to hear.  Thanks man.

[S Hovanec]

5 will for sure be sufficient.

[basscatcher8]

 5 shouldn't be an issue. I do 6 on my own just cause they work well for me.

[MickD]

With 5's you are limiting yourself to the FG, in my opinion, as a knot like the double uni will not be very smooth through the guides.  The FG can be really good, but it can also be quite quirky for reasons I don't really understand.

 

One good thing is that the FG seems to work better with the higher pound tests you plan to use than it does with leaders below about 20.

[spoonplugger1]

If you want to reassure yourself buy a 5 guide, tape it on one of your rods between two guides near the tip and go out and test cast it with your setup. You never have to build a rod, or have one built on a guess. You can find the right position for your reel seat by simply spinning up a bunch of masking tape arbors on the blank and sliding the reel seat back and forth to get your right rear grip length for your presentaion. Tape the guides on and go see how your line flows through them before you build it. A dollar's worth of tape and an hour of your time can teach you volumes with no consequences.

[LionHeart]

49 minutes ago, spoonplugger1 said:

If you want to reassure yourself buy a 5 guide, tape it on one of your rods between two guides near the tip and go out and test cast it with your setup. You never have to build a rod, or have one built on a guess. You can find the right position for your reel seat by simply spinning up a bunch of masking tape arbors on the blank and sliding the reel seat back and forth to get your right rear grip length for your presentaion. Tape the guides on and go see how your line flows through them before you build it. A dollar's worth of tape and an hour of your time can teach you volumes with no consequences.

You know what, that's not a bad idea at all.  Thanks for the suggestion man.  I've measured the inner diameter of the guides on another rod that I know for sure works well with the leader knot,  and they came out to just under 4mm.  Monday I will stop by Cabelas and measure the guides on the Zolo.  I think that should give me a good idea of yay or nay on the size 5's.

 

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

[spoonplugger1]

The inside diameter of the guide frame is how guides are measured, so measuring the outside diameter of the ceramic ring is way to get guide size down, different ring materials and how they are installed makes a difference big time on the inside diameter you experience.

[LionHeart]

4 hours ago, spoonplugger1 said:

The inside diameter of the guide frame is how guides are measured, so measuring the outside diameter of the ceramic ring is way to get guide size down, different ring materials and how they are installed makes a difference big time on the inside diameter you experience.

Not really sure I understand what you're saying but the size of hole on the guides of the rod I own is what I measured since that's what the knot has to pass through.  As long as the hole is equal to or greater on the size 5 guides, I expect no issues.

[LionHeart]

7 hours ago, MickD said:

With 5's you are limiting yourself to the FG, in my opinion, as a knot like the double uni will not be very smooth through the guides.  The FG can be really good, but it can also be quite quirky for reasons I don't really understand.

 

One good thing is that the FG seems to work better with the higher pound tests you plan to use than it does with leaders below about 20.

Thanks for the feedback.  Honestly, once an FG knot is properly tied, I see no reason to ever use anything else.  I believe it to be stronger than many terminal knots if not most, and I don't think it's up for debate that it is the thinnest.  

 

 

[MickD]

no argument on thinnest, but I've had many failures, usually when snapping swim baits off the bottom , the knot has unraveled. l think that sealing the braid half hitches with UV curing epoxy or super glue helps.  But it's not a knot without issues.

 

 

[MickD]

17 hours ago, LionHeart said:

Not really sure I understand what you're saying but the size of hole on the guides of the rod I own is what I measured since that's what the knot has to pass through.  As long as the hole is equal to or greater on the size 5 guides, I expect no issues.

YOu are right.  And that's fine if you keep measuring ID's, but all we are saying is that when manufacturers specify guide size they are talking the OD of the ring .  So if you measure the ID of a guide on a rod and it's 5mm, when you contract for a new rod, if you  contract for 5mm guides, you will not necessarily get the same ID as the ID on the guides you measured.  The builder can find out what the ID is on any guide by checking the manufacturer spec sheets, so it can be handled.    

 

I don't know why manufacturers started specifying OD's, but they did, all do it, and it's not likely to change after all these years.  

[LionHeart]

7 minutes ago, MickD said:

YOu are right.  And that's fine if you keep measuring ID's, but all we are saying is that when manufacturers specify guide size they are talking the OD of the ring .  So if you measure the ID of a guide on a rod and it's 5mm, when you contract for a new rod, if you  contract for 5mm guides, you will not necessarily get the same ID as the ID on the guides you measured.  The builder can find out what the ID is on any guide by checking the manufacturer spec sheets, so it can be handled.    

 

I don't know why manufacturers started specifying OD's, but they did, all do it, and it's not likely to change after all these years.  

Oh, I get it now.  Thanks man.

[WRB]

Looked up both Fuji and Kagin guides charts to determine the ring I.D., couldn't find that data? Maybe one of you rod builders could reference or post a chart with guide rind I,D,'s, O.D. is worthless when trying to decide if a knot that equals 3 to 4 X the line diameter plus a short tag end will easily go through a guide.

Measuring my Kagin guide rings the O.D. Including frame wire is 2.50 mm larger then the I.D.

Tom

[LionHeart]

WRB, thanks for taking the time.  I work very close to a Cabelas, so tomorrow I will measure the inner diameter of the size 5 Kigan guides.  As long as it's 3.5 4mm or greater I expect no issues as I routinely use guides of that size.

[MickD]

I have gotten ID info from manufacturers, but the fact is, the suggestion to TRY IT takes all the mystery out of it.  It either works to one's satisfaction or it doesn't.  All it costs is one guide.

[spoonplugger1]

Pac Bay has the info on their guides on their site, the tables are right along side the guides in each guide series. If you don't know much about them, they were used by G Loomis when Gary Loomis owned the company. Others have used them also, but not as consistantly.

[LionHeart]

So I went to Cabelas today.  I figured instead of getting measurements, the best way to know how the guides would work is to test them.

 

I brought in one of my reels and asked if I could put it on one of the rods and make a few pitches.  To my surprise, they said "sure."  I was even able to make a couple of casts in an open area of the store.

 

I can say they work great.  In full honesty, while the knot is going through the guides in either direction, I do feel it ever so slightly if I really concentrate on it, but no clicking or snagging of any kind, and absolutely no impact on pitching, casting, or reeling in line.

 

What I feel of the knot going through the guides is barely perceptible even when looking for it.  Pretty happy about that because I wanted to keep the build as original as function would allow.  

 

Thanks for all the feedback guys.?

 

 

[spoonplugger1]

You'll never get away from knots being noticable, if you're not snagging, or hanging up your golden.