Rod Sensitivity

[papajoe222]

I had this debate with a fellow club member . He claimed that, given the same components, Spinning rods are more sensitive than casting because the line is in contact with all the guides all the time. I disagreed saying that the tip is where a bite is 'transmitted' to the rod.He asked me why I hold the line in front of my casting reel when I worm and jig fish and I told him because there are times when the bite isn't transmitted by the rod, but I can sometimes feel it through the line.  He says that doesn't happen with a spinning rod.

Your thoughts, or opinions.

[MickD]

I agree with you, it's at the tip where the bite is transmitted, and it doesn't matter whether the rod is a spin or cast.

 

Blanks can be wrapped into casting or spin rods.  Assume two identical blanks, one built as spin, one as cast.  Same weight in the tip section since both are wrapped with the same guides, which, like the blank , can't tell whether they are on a casting or spin rod.  Same for the identical tiptop on each rod.  So you have the line contacting both rods identically at the tiptop, both rods same mass, same action, same power, same weight, same blank material.  The only difference between the two setups is that one has the guides on top, one on the bottom.  Line is contacting the same tiptops on both rods, then the same guides on both rods.

 

The difference is going to be essentially nothing.

[Darren.]

I've heard that argument, too.

 

S'pose it's a 6 and 1/2 dozen the other argument.

[MickD]

A bite will be transmitted through the line the same for cast and spin, the only difference being that it is a little less handy to feel the line on a spin outfit.  Line is line.  Pull on one end, feel it on the other.

[J.Vincent]

Fishing line is never in contact with all the guides at one time, because of angle and wind. Take for example a 1/4oz Texas Rigged Worm on 10lb line; with a slight bow in the line and the rod pointed between 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock; when that fish inhales a plastic worm, the first transmission of sensitivity is from the line itself, that travels all the way to the next point of contact which is the rod tip and then down the blank. So I agree with PapaJoe222, the rod tip is the first point of contact between lure and rod, therefore Spinning rods aren't more sensitive due to Line being in contact with all the guides. If Spinning rods are more sensitive at times it's most likely because of the lighter line and the grip. Just my 2 cents

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

The purpose of the guides is to distribute stress along the length of the rod to harness its  power. On a spinning rod they tame coils to aid casting. The only way guides aid sensitivity is by using the lightest ones possible in a given application. 

[Brad in Texas]

Agreed regarding the tip being the primary point where a first transmission of the bite originates, this, for both casting and spinning rods.

 

But, I suppose and can't know for certain, that if one holds a spinning rod as it is intended to be held (fingers split forward and back of the reel support arm), that it is a superior hand set-up position better positioned to feel a tiny vibration. 

 

I suppose it depends on how one holds a casting reel, for sure, but hand up straddling the reel top wouldn't appear to be as positioned for "feel" as the forward finger of a spinning rod sort of balancing on it. There are few things on our bodies more tactile than an index finger.

 

In any case, a point to ponder, but a really, really small one as regards on the water results I suspect.

 

Brad

[jbrew73]

It doesn’t matter which is more sensitive.  Real bass fisherman wouldn’t be caught using fairy wands.

 

is this a trick question?  

[Catt]

9 hours ago, papajoe222 said:

Spinning rods are more sensitive than casting because the line is in contact with all the guides all the time

 

Because of the size of the guides on spinning rods the line is also farther away from the rod which dampens the "sensitivity".

[A-Jay]

I've almost always been my contention that 'guide sensitivity' was more hype than anything else.

 

However recently purchased a couple of Diawa sticks that sport carbon fiber guides.

 

 After a couple of months on the water, I'm singing a totally different tune now.

 

A-Jay

 

 

[PatrickKnight]

2 hours ago, A-Jay said:

I've almost always been my contention that 'guide sensitivity' was more hype than anything else.

 

However recently purchased a couple of Diawa sticks that sport carbon fiber guides.

 

 After a couple of months on the water, I'm singing a totally different tune now.

 

A-Jay

 

 

Those AGS guides are the real deal!!

 

I always feel my spinning rods are more sensitive because I buy higher end spinning rods than I do casting.

 

I think sensitivity is such a personal thing that once you get to a certain level of rod its more in your head than in your hand.

[Catt]

15 minutes ago, PatrickKnight said:

I think sensitivity is such a personal thing that once you get to a certain level of rod its more in your head than in your hand.

 

Yes Sir!

 

I work with a lot of top quality sound equipment & that statement applies!

[CrankFate]

15 hours ago, papajoe222 said:

I had this debate with a fellow club member . He claimed that, given the same components, Spinning rods are more sensitive than casting because the line is in contact with all the guides all the time. I disagreed saying that the tip is where a bite is 'transmitted' to the rod.He asked me why I hold the line in front of my casting reel when I worm and jig fish and I told him because there are times when the bite isn't transmitted by the rod, but I can sometimes feel it through the line.  He says that doesn't happen with a spinning rod.

Your thoughts, or opinions.

I do not agree. Spinning rods are less sensitive, usually. But sensitivity comes from the stiffness of the line (braid v mono v fluoro) and from stiffness of the rod. The lighter and stiffer a rod, the more sensitive. A rod with an extremely stiff tip and made of light, rigid material (graphite) will be most sensitive. IMO, now that we have braid a lot of rods are too sensitive. Most casting rods are more stiff and rigid than most spinning rods.

[Yumeya]

I have a NRX 852 Casting and a NRX 852 Spinning, they are both super sensitive and I think they are 

equal.

 

 

[MickD]

11 hours ago, Catt said:

 

Because of the size of the guides on spinning rods the line is also farther away from the rod which dampens the "sensitivity".

Show me your data.  :-)

[Arcs&sparks]

11 hours ago, A-Jay said:

However recently purchased a couple of Diawa sticks that sport carbon fiber guides.

 

 After a couple of months on the water, I'm singing a totally different tune now.

I had to look up these rods/guides ‘cause I haven’t heard of them.   I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around why they would be more sensitive vs metal guides.  Do you know why this is the case?

 

   Most metal transmits vibration very well of course, that’s a no brainer,  and why I’m confused lol.  

[Logan S]

What about a casting rod with spiral wrapped guides?  Ultimate sensitivity? ?

 

[Team9nine]

57 minutes ago, Arcs&sparks said:

I had to look up these rods/guides ‘cause I haven’t heard of them.   I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around why they would be more sensitive vs metal guides.  Do you know why this is the case?

 

   Most metal transmits vibration very well of course, that’s a no brainer,  and why I’m confused lol.  

 

CrankFate nailed it - stiffness and weight. Carbon fiber offers a superior stiffness to weight ratio compared to metal, which results in better sensitivity.

[A-Jay]

3 hours ago, Arcs&sparks said:

I had to look up these rods/guides ‘cause I haven’t heard of them.   I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around why they would be more sensitive vs metal guides.  Do you know why this is the case?

 

   Most metal transmits vibration very well of course, that’s a no brainer,  and why I’m confused lol.  

Buy one and see for yourself.

A-Jay

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

Carbon fiber guides are light weight making a sensitive rod. Little if any feedback travels through a guide frame to the blank though. 

[Stephen B]

18 minutes ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

Carbon fiber guides are light weight making a sensitive rod. Little if any feedback travels through a guide frame to the blank though. 

If that is true, then how does sensitivity actually travel to the blank? It can't be 100% through the line as a NRX is noticeable more sensitivity than an E6X with the same reel, line, etc. It would somehow have to be a combination of through the line, and from the guide to the blank itself. But I am unsure as this is just a theory. I'm all ears.

[Boomstick]

I agree with you. Also, I would think the larger guides of a spinning rod which are more designed to handle the line movement when reeling would make a spinning rod less sensitive -- whether that's noticeable is another debate.

 

Also, if you were wrong, why is the action of the rod (the flex of the tip) the most important rod attribute when selecting a more sensitive rod? Because detecting bites is largely in the tip!

[grub_man]

Stephen B,

 

The type of sensitivity that we are all talking about I like to call 'feel-the-bite' sensitivity.  It is essentially how well a rod transfers signals in the line to the rod.  The signals that we are feeling for are changes in tension of the line.  If you have hands large enough to palm your reels and keep direct contact with the line, then more power to you.  I have small hands, so that doesn't work well for me.

 

In order to get the changes in tension to the rod, you want your line to be at a 90˚ angle to the rod tip.  This will be the angle that results in the most movement of the rod tip for the force applied.  This is why we fish 'feel' baits with the rod held around the 2 o'clock position.  When you feel things in your rod, you are feeling impulses (small changes in the motion of the rod tip).  As your lure is moving, changes in its motion result in changes in the tension of the line.  The line will then pul the tip down ever so slightly and then the rod reacts and tries to rebound.  It is these small changes that you feel.

 

As mentioned, the stiffness to weight ratio is the property most closely related to the sensitivity of a rod.  Over the years rods have been made from different types of wood, metal, fiberglass, and carbon fiber.  Each of these materials has different elastic properties, i.e. different stiffness to weigh ratios.  You can build rods with identical powers and actions with any of these materials.  The most sensitive ones will be the lightest.  The NRX is more sensitive than the E6X because the material in the NRX is higher modulus meaning that the fibers are stiffer and lighter than those used in the E6X material (or a lower density resin is used).

 

I know this is an abbreviated explanation, but I hope it helps.  If you have more questions, I'll be glad to help clarify some things or go into more detail.

[Stephen B]

3 hours ago, grub_man said:

Stephen B,

 

The type of sensitivity that we are all talking about I like to call 'feel-the-bite' sensitivity.  It is essentially how well a rod transfers signals in the line to the rod.  The signals that we are feeling for are changes in tension of the line.  If you have hands large enough to palm your reels and keep direct contact with the line, then more power to you.  I have small hands, so that doesn't work well for me.

 

In order to get the changes in tension to the rod, you want your line to be at a 90˚ angle to the rod tip.  This will be the angle that results in the most movement of the rod tip for the force applied.  This is why we fish 'feel' baits with the rod held around the 2 o'clock position.  When you feel things in your rod, you are feeling impulses (small changes in the motion of the rod tip).  As your lure is moving, changes in its motion result in changes in the tension of the line.  The line will then pul the tip down ever so slightly and then the rod reacts and tries to rebound.  It is these small changes that you feel.

 

As mentioned, the stiffness to weight ratio is the property most closely related to the sensitivity of a rod.  Over the years rods have been made from different types of wood, metal, fiberglass, and carbon fiber.  Each of these materials has different elastic properties, i.e. different stiffness to weigh ratios.  You can build rods with identical powers and actions with any of these materials.  The most sensitive ones will be the lightest.  The NRX is more sensitive than the E6X because the material in the NRX is higher modulus meaning that the fibers are stiffer and lighter than those used in the E6X material (or a lower density resin is used).

 

I know this is an abbreviated explanation, but I hope it helps.  If you have more questions, I'll be glad to help clarify some things or go into more detail.

Thanks! That make sense. 

[Junger]

This debate comes up so much, you'd think there would be some way of standardizing a sensitivity test at this point.