Crank Rod - Anyone Built on a Rainshadow Judge Blank?

[SloppyJ]

I'm wanting to build a deep crank rod and strongly considering the MH (3/8 - 1oz) Judge for my first build. I'm also looking into the Revelation line and a Phenix model. The Judge line looks pretty neat and seems to be a brand new design. Just can't figure out if it's worth the premium compared to the Revelation or the Phenix and I'm looking for feedback. I mostly throw DD22s or 6XDs this time of year but I would like this rod to handle smaller baits too. 

 

This is the type of rod that I currently "need" and I've decided to take the jump and build it myself instead of shelling out the money for an off the shelf rod. I have a few others that I would like to build this year as well so I'm wanting to start with this one. I understand that learning on a more expensive blank might be a risk, but it's one that I'm willing to take. 

 

Thank you for the help in advance. 

[spoonplugger1]

First off, I built my first rod on a G Loomis IMX blank and have never regretted it, almost 40 years later and I still use that rod a lot. There is nothing you can do to the blank that can't be fixed. Take your time, pay attention to fit and finish, and clean up after yourself as you go and you'll do fine, it's not rocket science.

The other way, you blow a bunch of money on a rod you'll probably not enjoy and use.

It's not really a new design, the Seeker React rods/blanks have been around a long time, the concept has been in the Seeker line up for even longer. Lamiglas has been doing it even longer, the Triflex rods. The new NFC Delta rods sound similar, and the Judge blanks are US made, NFC blanks were distributed through Batson, Hmm.

Anyway, the Judge blanks are pretty nice, the backbone of MH seems to be much closer to the old RX7 CB heavy power, the overwrap I think has something to do with it, the tip is lighter than the RX7 MH tip. In other words you should do fine. I also use my RX7 heavy power, 8 ft crankbait rods for salmon fishing, and my Judge rods make excellent trolling rods for stripers.

[grub_man]

Spoon,

 

Nice to see someone who has built on the Judge CB blanks.  Over on the RBO, everyone seems pretty tightlipped about them, which is surprising.  I don't see myself in the market for a cranking rod for a very long time unless my Seeker or Lamiglas rods fail.

 

Sloppy,

 

My first rods were built on Rainshadow RX8+ blanks (equivalent to the Eternity line).  Aside from a couple reaming issues hidden behind winding checks, the builds were wildly successful and after about 10 years or so are still the most likely rods you will see in my hand.  A, because they are incredible rods and B, because they were built for my confidence finesse techniques.

 

The standard by which cranking blanks should be measured is the Seeker BS706-S-glass (7' 1/2-1oz) and BS756-S-glass (7'6" 1/2-1oz) blanks.  They are the same taper with the 7'6" model continuing 6" back from the butt of the 7' model.  If you've watched Major League Fishing, you have more than likely seen these baby poop green blanks on the decks of the boats.

 

A couple tips about the Seeker blanks.  They come untrimmed so it will be a couple inches longer than the spec length.  I took 5/8" off of the tip of the 706 to get the tip to where I wanted it.  You can get away with trimming a glass blank a bit much easier than a graphite blank.  I fish square bills up to 6XDs on it.  For a dedicated DD22 or 6XD rod, I might take off an extra 1/8".  Also, they have large diameter butts.  You need a 17mm ID reel seat to go on the 706, and you will need to ream the seat to get it into position.  A seat without an exposed blank cutout is surprisingly most comfortable, and the seat is attached directly to the blank, no arbors.  On the 756, you will need an 18mm seat and need to ream it as well.

 

My Lamiglas blank is an old glass blank from the late 60's that was given to me by a rod building friend.  It is very likely that the Skeet Reese cranking rods were modeled after this blank or a modern version of it, though I don't know a modern version of the blank model.  When I put it on the duplicator with the Seeker, the Lami is slightly more powerful and slightly slower in action than the Seeker. In use, the Lami is slightly more tip heavy being made of a lower modulus glass.  Generally, I'll have a deeper diving crank on the Lami than the Seeker when I'm on the water.

 

It sounds like I should have given the RX7 MH or H graphite cranking blanks a better look.  I built on the 6'6" (1/4 - 5/8 oz) M power blank for Strike King Series 1 and Series 3 cranks, but it was underpowered.  I will say I don't think I ever lost a fish on it, but nearly every fish I caught was skinhooked by the back treble.  It just didn't have the backbone I wanted.  It might not be a bad choice for cranking with braid, or a fantastic choice for trolling or casting light cranks for crappie.

[SloppyJ]

10 hours ago, spoonplugger1 said:

First off, I built my first rod on a G Loomis IMX blank and have never regretted it, almost 40 years later and I still use that rod a lot. There is nothing you can do to the blank that can't be fixed. Take your time, pay attention to fit and finish, and clean up after yourself as you go and you'll do fine, it's not rocket science.

The other way, you blow a bunch of money on a rod you'll probably not enjoy and use.

It's not really a new design, the Seeker React rods/blanks have been around a long time, the concept has been in the Seeker line up for even longer. Lamiglas has been doing it even longer, the Triflex rods. The new NFC Delta rods sound similar, and the Judge blanks are US made, NFC blanks were distributed through Batson, Hmm.

Anyway, the Judge blanks are pretty nice, the backbone of MH seems to be much closer to the old RX7 CB heavy power, the overwrap I think has something to do with it, the tip is lighter than the RX7 MH tip. In other words you should do fine. I also use my RX7 heavy power, 8 ft crankbait rods for salmon fishing, and my Judge rods make excellent trolling rods for stripers.

 

Thank you for the all of the info I didn't have the background of the industry and these crank rods. Like Grub mentioned below, I couldn't find any info on the Judge blanks anywhere else. After reading your response and Grub's, I will look into the Seeker and 

1 hour ago, grub_man said:

Spoon,

 

Nice to see someone who has built on the Judge CB blanks.  Over on the RBO, everyone seems pretty tightlipped about them, which is surprising.  I don't see myself in the market for a cranking rod for a very long time unless my Seeker or Lamiglas rods fail.

 

Sloppy,

 

My first rods were built on Rainshadow RX8+ blanks (equivalent to the Eternity line).  Aside from a couple reaming issues hidden behind winding checks, the builds were wildly successful and after about 10 years or so are still the most likely rods you will see in my hand.  A, because they are incredible rods and B, because they were built for my confidence finesse techniques.

 

The standard by which cranking blanks should be measured is the Seeker BS706-S-glass (7' 1/2-1oz) and BS756-S-glass (7'6" 1/2-1oz) blanks.  They are the same taper with the 7'6" model continuing 6" back from the butt of the 7' model.  If you've watched Major League Fishing, you have more than likely seen these baby poop green blanks on the decks of the boats.

 

A couple tips about the Seeker blanks.  They come untrimmed so it will be a couple inches longer than the spec length.  I took 5/8" off of the tip of the 706 to get the tip to where I wanted it.  You can get away with trimming a glass blank a bit much easier than a graphite blank.  I fish square bills up to 6XDs on it.  For a dedicated DD22 or 6XD rod, I might take off an extra 1/8".  Also, they have large diameter butts.  You need a 17mm ID reel seat to go on the 706, and you will need to ream the seat to get it into position.  A seat without an exposed blank cutout is surprisingly most comfortable, and the seat is attached directly to the blank, no arbors.  On the 756, you will need an 18mm seat and need to ream it as well.

 

My Lamiglas blank is an old glass blank from the late 60's that was given to me by a rod building friend.  It is very likely that the Skeet Reese cranking rods were modeled after this blank or a modern version of it, though I don't know a modern version of the blank model.  When I put it on the duplicator with the Seeker, the Lami is slightly more powerful and slightly slower in action than the Seeker. In use, the Lami is slightly more tip heavy being made of a lower modulus glass.  Generally, I'll have a deeper diving crank on the Lami than the Seeker when I'm on the water.

 

It sounds like I should have given the RX7 MH or H graphite cranking blanks a better look.  I built on the 6'6" (1/4 - 5/8 oz) M power blank for Strike King Series 1 and Series 3 cranks, but it was underpowered.  I will say I don't think I ever lost a fish on it, but nearly every fish I caught was skinhooked by the back treble.  It just didn't have the backbone I wanted.  It might not be a bad choice for cranking with braid, or a fantastic choice for trolling or casting light cranks for crappie.

 

Wow, thank you so much for the info on this. I will take a serious look at the seeker s-glass series. I have no real preference on a cranking rod material yet and I think having a custom glass rod would be pretty cool. I've been researching pretty hard the last few days trying to determine the components that I think I want to use on this. There are a lot of key decisions to make regarding the build-out that were hard because I have no history with this hobby. Your post helped narrow down a few of these items and I appreciate your time. I love to tinker with things and experiment so I'm looking forward to starting this process. 

 

I have a couple general questions that I'd like to ask if I can take some more of your time:

 

1. I'm pretty dead set on this having a full cork handle so I can rest it against my arm if I'm cranking perpendicular to the lure. Is there any reason to consider a split grip? I've never had a split grip and I'm not 100% sure I would enjoy them. I know that part of the beauty in building your own rod is making it how you like. I plan to try some split grips (and possibly an ACS seat) on a jerkbait rod after this one but I wanted to make sure that my train of thought was at least in the ballpark regarding the handle. Length will be determined based off of my center of palm to inside elbow measurement which is around 12.5". I'll likely add a some sort of ergonomic shaped front grip based on what I find comfortable. Probably a more bulbous design instead of a straight taper...... speaking of which.....

 

2. I've been drawing a few blanks out based on the butt and tip measurements. The assumption that I have to make is that the rod taper from tip to butt is linear. Any problems in that? I plan on using this info as a rough guide for ordering reel seats, winding checks, or any other diameter specific parts. I know I'll end up reaming them for proper fitment but that should get me close. Since I don't have extra parts laying around, I'd be tickled if I nailed my first order. I can always bust out the calipers and measure once I get the blank but I enjoy the challenge and potential savings on shipping costs. 

 

3. Epoxying guide feet. All of the "starter" videos that I've seen from distributors or youtube don't really touch on epoxy behind the guide feet. It seems like it's a pretty common belief that the feet need a little epoxy from the stuff i've seen on RBO. I read mention of a technique where you saturate the thread at the foot of the guide and work up from there. The poster said that by the time you get up towards the actual guide, that you would see the epoxy under the guide foot. Can I assume that capillary action of the thread will pull some epoxy up under the guide foot or is there a better way to do it?

 

Again, thank you both for the responses. Your information is invaluable for someone like myself who has never done this and doesn't have any other resources than the internet. I can already tell that the hobby is full of nice people that are happy to share their knowledge and just plain like to talk about building rods which is really refreshing. 

[grub_man]

18 minutes ago, SloppyJ said:

1. I'm pretty dead set on this having a full cork handle so I can rest it against my arm if I'm cranking perpendicular to the lure. Is there any reason to consider a split grip? I've never had a split grip and I'm not 100% sure I would enjoy them. I know that part of the beauty in building your own rod is making it how you like. I plan to try some split grips (and possibly an ACS seat) on a jerkbait rod after this one but I wanted to make sure that my train of thought was at least in the ballpark regarding the handle. Length will be determined based off of my center of palm to inside elbow measurement which is around 12.5". I'll likely add a some sort of ergonomic shaped front grip based on what I find comfortable. Probably a more bulbous design instead of a straight taper...... speaking of which.....

 

2. I've been drawing a few blanks out based on the butt and tip measurements. The assumption that I have to make is that the rod taper from tip to butt is linear. Any problems in that? I plan on using this info as a rough guide for ordering reel seats, winding checks, or any other diameter specific parts. I know I'll end up reaming them for proper fitment but that should get me close. Since I don't have extra parts laying around, I'd be tickled if I nailed my first order. I can always bust out the calipers and measure once I get the blank but I enjoy the challenge and potential savings on shipping costs. 

 

3. Epoxying guide feet. All of the "starter" videos that I've seen from distributors or youtube don't really touch on epoxy behind the guide feet. It seems like it's a pretty common belief that the feet need a little epoxy from the stuff i've seen on RBO. I read mention of a technique where you saturate the thread at the foot of the guide and work up from there. The poster said that by the time you get up towards the actual guide, that you would see the epoxy under the guide foot. Can I assume that capillary action of the thread will pull some epoxy up under the guide foot or is there a better way to do it?

 

Again, thank you both for the responses. Your information is invaluable for someone like myself who has never done this and doesn't have any other resources than the internet. I can already tell that the hobby is full of nice people that are happy to share their knowledge and just plain like to talk about building rods which is really refreshing. 

 

By the way, I'm not necessarily trying to steer you away from a Batson blank, as they are fantastic, and the first place I look for a new blank.  I just wanted to share my experience with the glass blanks, as people tend to shy away from them at times, even though they are a great option for the task at hand.

 

1. Nothing wrong with a full cork grip in the least.  On a longer somewhat tip heavy cranking rod, the extra material will help slightly with balance.  I will say that a well executed split grip is functionally the same as a full grip in most bass fishing applications.  What I mean is that your hands are fully supported when using the split grip.  For example, when I build for myself, I have smallish hands and grip my casting rods with 2 fingers in front of the trigger.  Behind the reel seat, I use a 3" or 3.5" section (need to measure to remind myself) with a straight taper from 1.05" down to 0.85", modeled after Batson's woven graphite tapered fore grips (my first builds were built with those grips and after tinkering, the design is perfect for me).  My palm is fully supported so my hand does not touch the blank.  For the butt grip, I use a 4" or 4.5" section, and if I use a butt cap, I prefer the mushroom shaped cork or EVA.  The swell at the butt helps find proper hand placement quickly and the grip length supports the whole hand while making two-handed casts.  

 

If you take a look at your full cork grips and see where the oil is deposited from your hands, you will notice that there is likely a small section in the middle that you do not handle much if at all.  This is the piece that can be removed for a split grip.

 

2.  The taper of a blank is generally close to but not quite linear.  It's determined by how the designer cuts the fabric and the taper of the mandrel itself, which may have multiple tapers.  However, do not fret, if you order your components from the same vendor, most of them will be happy to help you out with sizing of winding checks, reel seats, etc.  If you give them some measurements that you are working with, they can measure your particular blank and get you matched up.  It's fantastic service that most offer for free, which helps put your mind at ease a bit when you pay shipping on a small order.  If you source the blank first, then the calipers will be your friend.  I use a cheap digital vernier caliper from Harbor Freight.  It's not good enough for high precision machining, but to get within a half millimeter for rod building components its more than good enough.

 

3. Those guide foot tunnels can be a pain at times.  I generally touch my finish brush where the tunnel meets the blank and let the finish wick in from the front.  Once one tunnel is full, do the same on the other side and then finish the wrap.  Capillary action is your friend, and it just takes practice to find a technique that works well for you.  There is no substitution for experience when it comes to finish.

 

 

[SloppyJ]

Grub, you the man! I know you weren't trying to steer me away from the Rainshadow blank but that Seeker seems to be the gold standard (like you mentioned) based off my limited research. It's cheaper but quite a bit heavier. Something I'll have to dig a little deeper and ponder on. 

 

Another thing is that huge butt diameter on that Seeker. I see most reamers don't go that high. Looks like if I go that route, I'll have to get extra creative. 

 

[spoonplugger1]

Rod tapers aren't a bit linear, they are exponential in nature. In this instance very close to pi multiplication. If you use the same amount of material, but double the diameter it gets 9 times stiffer, 3.1416 times 3.1416. That's the reason fiberglass rods are all larger diametered, they use thin walls and large diameters to get max stiffness with the least weight to compensate for less modulus. 

This is also done with graphite, the Lamiglas Perigee 5/6 fly blanks are the same 1/2 inch diameter as the 9 wt. and some of the XMG blanks/rods come to mind.

[grub_man]

Reaming that size takes some careful hand reaming to get the job done.  I used EVA on the grip for mine, so I had a little give and stretch.  Cork will be a challenge, as you end up with a pretty thin wall at the butt of the rod.

 

The weight can be a bit annoying when working walking baits on those rods, but because of the large OD and thinner walls, the rod keeps a good bit of weight back near the butt, and it's not as tip heavy as you might expect, but it's certainly not as light as some of the graphite options out there.

[spoonplugger1]

I don't know, I have no problem with reamer sizes, go to your neighborhood garage sales, buy that old beater large butt fiberglass rod in the corner for a buck, go to your hardware store and buy a small can of Weldwood contact cement and a roll of medium grit emory cloth, strip the rod except for the rear grip that makes a nice free handle, put the contact cement on the rod and emory cloth and let it tack dry, than spiral the tape up the rod blank. You now have a very good reamer that will last forever and you can use right away. Some of my reamers are 3 ft. long, much easier to store one than a bunch of little ones and easier to find one that does the job of three little ones.

One thought though Sloppy, on a crankbait rod the rod in used wiith the tip down, along with most other presentations. A balanced rod here is of little importance as the pull of the lure while retrieved overrides everything. Many of the pros that use custom rods will have shorter rear grip lengths than you expect because they know every bit of rod length in front of the hand is improving castability, the reason they went to a long rod in the first place, everything behind the hand is an expensive stick and of little use, most will not exceed a 9 inch rear grip length even on 8 ft. rods and many are in the 8 to 8 1/2 inch length on 7 ft rods, mine are 8 inch, more than enough of my fore arm is anchoring the rod, at least for me. Just someting to think about and try maybe.

Many posts in forums say they installed a 20 inch grip, this is the length of all the grips and the reelseat, great in the catalog, worthless to builders, or someone trying to learn. A 16 mm seat is 1 inch shorter than an 18mm seat, one model in the catalog may have a 2 inch foregrip, or a 4 inch one listed in a 20 inch discription, see what I mean? Much better to break it down so people can use the information correctly. Just another obscure thought while I wait for the morning coffee to kick in.

Have a great Father's Day Dads.

[grub_man]

Spoon, some very good points.  When it comes to handle length, I'll add another caveat.  With spinning rods, the threads can either go at the back of the reel seat or the front of the reel seat.  This will shift the location of the reel significantly.  When I build a rod for a friend, I always ask for a measurement from the butt of their favorite grip to the trigger or reel stem, and which fingers they hold the trigger/reel stem between.  With those bits of info, I can adjust the reel seat location to make sure there is the same amount of material behind the hand on either type of build.

 

Before I started building I used Falcon rods, and their spinning rods used up-locking reel seats with the same cork and butt cap as the casting rods.  This put the spinning reel about an inch further up the rod than their casting rods.  The extra handle length drove me nuts, and is one of the reasons I avoided picking up the spinning rod at almost all cost.  Once I started building, I would mock up the handle with the spinning reel in place and match the length to the butt of the rods with the distance between the trigger and butt on my casting rods (I hold reel stem/trigger between my middle and ring fingers).

 

For 6'6"+ rods, for me, I use 9.25" from butt to trigger/stem.

For 6'ish rods, I use 8.25".

For short rods, I don't drop below 7.25", as I regularly use two-handed casts, and going shorter prevents that.  About the only exceptions would be a <5'6" UL or ice rod.

 

That puts me maybe just a little longer than Spoon's preference for handle length.

 

[SloppyJ]

Spoon,

 

Yes, the handle measurements were throwing me way off. I was looking at some rods online and I concluded that the foregrip was included in the measurements so there was no real "standard". Thank you for input, you definitely saved me some time and frustration. I have some old rods that meet the "garage sale" criteria that I can cut down for reamers and I already have the contact cement so that's also very helpful.

 

Grub, 

 

After looking at a few of my casting rods, they vary from 9" to 11.5" from the trigger to the end of the butt cap (seems like a solid metric for handle measurement). On paper that doesn't seem like much but I've been fishing with them for years so I know just how much of a difference that makes. Honestly, the best part about this learning process is figuring out what I like and correlating these small differences into a rod that fits my needs. Can't wait to get started when everything shows up. 

 

Thanks again to both of you and I hope everyone had a happy Father's Day. Luckily my little one just got on a solid bedtime routine so those few precious hours between his bedtime and mine can be spent productively.