Why aren't all Marine boat Batteries AGM sealed batteries?

[tcbass]

I just bought new Cabelas AGM deep cycle batteries for my trolling motor. I brought my old wet-cell Interstate batteries in to get them checked when I was having problems with my Ulterra, come to find out the batteries were fine but the breaker was bad. However, in doing so I tipped one of the batteries over causing acid to leak out. What a mess to clean up, baking soda and water all over. Now there's white stuff all over the interior of my boat. Plus, when I opened up the batteries water level cap recently to check the water level, liquid sprayed out. Luckily I was wearing safety glasses and none of it hit my face. After that I was done with wet-cell batteries forever and bought AGM sealed batteries instead.

 

The automotive industry has used sealed batteries for years, I can't recall seeing a car with a wet-cell battery.

 

Why doesn't the marine boating industry all go to AGM sealed batteries as standard and phase out wet-cell batteries like the automotive industry did (the price would quickly come down on them)?

 

Just like cheaper boat trailers use hubs that have to be consistently greased and higher end boat trailer hubs do not, we could go to a standard maintenance free hub like high end boat trailers and the price would eventually come down also. Just like backup cameras in vehicles that are now mandatory by state law, all cars have backup cameras now and the cost went from thousands to included in the price of the vehicle.

 

 

[Further North]

I can't speak for others, but the cost/benefit calculation doesn't cut it for AGMs for me.

 

They cost about twice as much, but don't last twice as long...

[tcbass]

2 hours ago, Further North said:

I can't speak for others, but the cost/benefit calculation doesn't cut it for AGMs for me.

 

They cost about twice as much, but don't last twice as long...

 

 

They are really more expensive. 

 

However, I just almost burned my eyes out checking my boat's old marine wet-cells when I popped the cap off and liquid flew up toward my face. Luckily I was wearing safety glasses.

 

After that and with not having to do maintenance I finally decided to give AGMs a try. Fortunately for me Cabela's AGM batteries are currently on sale. 

 

For Cabelas AGM group 27 batteries they are normally $220. They are currently on sale for $169. I bought a bunch of Cabelas gift cards at $20 off of $100, so with $300 in giftcards that's $30 bucks off per battery and then another $15 off each for returning the old batteries. That makes a total savings of $190 and each battery only costing $125 each. 

 

For $125 each I'm willing to give AGMs a try. That's only about $25 bucks more per battery than your regular wet-cell at $100. I want to sell this boat in about 4-5 years so if these batteries last longer than that perfect, the new owner will get batteries that still have some life left in them and I won't have to buy batteries again before I sell the boat. 

[slonezp]

A great thing about living in a free market society is we can choose how and what we want to spend our money on. My money is on flooded cells. Less expensive, higher RC.

[tcbass]

10 minutes ago, slonezp said:

A great thing about living in a free market society is we can choose how and what we want to spend our money on. My money is on flooded cells. Less expensive, higher RC.

 

What is RC?

[WRB]

Actually AGM's last longer then 3X the life of wet cell batteries.

It's a mine set issue.

Tom

[slonezp]

9 minutes ago, tcbass said:

 

What is RC?

Reserve capacity

6 minutes ago, WRB said:

Actually AGM's last longer then 3X the life of wet cell batteries.

It's a mine set issue.

Tom

Like anything else, maintenance is the key. Even a maintenance free battery needs to be maintained as far as charging and discharging. 

 

Lastly, all AGMs are not the same. Even Cabelas has different grades of AGM's The OP bought the Advanced Angler AGM which are currently on sale and should share the same lifespan as a flooded cell if maintained properly. Their X900 series AGM is 3x the cost of the Advanced Angler AGM. Pricing is more in tune with Trojans as is the quality. So now we're talking dollars and cents. I can shell out $400 for 3 flooded cell Dekas that come with a 3 year warranty and if maintained properly will probably get 5, OR shell out $1300 for 3 Trojans or X900's that come with a 4 year warranty and may or may not 8 years out of them depending on maintenance. For me it's a no brainer.

[WRB]

If maintenance issues are not a problem, corrosion from charging gases and cooking wet cell dry, then Walmart Everlast or Costco Interstate marine batteries turned in every year with no questions asked gives you a lifetime battery.

VMax tanks MR137's AGM's in my boat are over 10 years without any issues at a cost of $225 per battery shipped. 2 each group size 31 trolling, 1 group 27 cranking. Today those batteries are about 20% more or $275 each.

prior to VMax Tanks I used Trojan SCS 225's, 5 years max from 3 sets, about same cost per battery. Do the math, no comparison plus no maintenance issues.

Tom

[TOXIC]

Also remember for the older boats/chargers they are not set up to charge AGM's.  Newer boats on-board chargers are fine.  The reason for SEARS discontinuing the PM1 AGM was the multiple returns mostly due to incorrect charging drasticlly shortening the life of the battery.  My 2005 Ranger 4 bank on-board charger has 3 wet cells for the TM and 1 SEARS PM1 for the cranking.  When my on-board charger shows all green for the 4 batteries, the wet cells are at 95% or more and the PM1 AGM is at 80%.  I use a portable charger with an AGM setting to top it off.  It's been in my boat for 4 years and has never failed.  I know some chargers can be sent back to the factory and re programmed for AGM as well.  

[tcbass]

1 hour ago, TOXIC said:

Also remember for the older boats/chargers they are not set up to charge AGM's.  Newer boats on-board chargers are fine.  The reason for SEARS discontinuing the PM1 AGM was the multiple returns mostly due to incorrect charging drasticlly shortening the life of the battery.  My 2005 Ranger 4 bank on-board charger has 3 wet cells for the TM and 1 SEARS PM1 for the cranking.  When my on-board charger shows all green for the 4 batteries, the wet cells are at 95% or more and the PM1 AGM is at 80%.  I use a portable charger with an AGM setting to top it off.  It's been in my boat for 4 years and has never failed.  I know some chargers can be sent back to the factory and re programmed for AGM as well.  

 

Good to know!

 

 

I’d presume my 2014 Minn Kota charger can charge AGMs fine?

[BrianinMD]

9 minutes ago, tcbass said:

 

Good to know!

 

 

I’d presume my 2014 Minn Kota charger can charge AGMs fine?

I would not presume that at all, verify this is the case. Sometimes they are, sometimes they need to be updated. If they are not setup for the different charging profile they could fry your new batteries.

 

I immediately switched the wet-cell batteries out of my boat for AGM's, no way I want acid in it.

[WRB]

Back in the mid 90's was the last time I bought wet cell marine deep cycle batteries.

The local Trojan battery dealer showed me Optima Circular wound AGM maintenance deep cycle marine batteries saying these will last longer then SCS225's but cost more.

I passed and got the SCS225's I was happy with.

Fast forward 2005 when I bought a new boat, went to the Trojan dealer and told him I wanted the Optima Blue tops and he told me Optima was bought by Interstate, the quality isn't as good and your warranty is voided if used for trolling motors! At that time Trojan didn't have AGM's, the dealer suggested VMax Tank, never heard of them but on his recommendation bought 2 group 31's and a group 27 cranking battery and they are still going strong.

AGM's weigh about 10% more them wet cell batteries and may be the reason they take a little longer to charge with 10 onboard chargers? I haven't had any charging issues with AGM's. No corrosion, the terminals are clean and free of oxides and simple to check for tight connections, no maintenance!

The next generation deep cycle marine batteries will be lithium ion, light weight and maintenance free. Cost is holding back general use and you need a charging system designed for the battery, increasing cost. Lead acids wet cells are less expensive and there days are numbered IMO.

Tom

[Further North]

23 hours ago, WRB said:

Actually AGM's last longer then 3X the life of wet cell batteries.

It's a mine set issue.

Tom

They do?  So AGMs last 15 years?  I've not seen that...

 

I'm guessing "mine" = "mind".

 

 

22 hours ago, slonezp said:

Reserve capacity

Like anything else, maintenance is the key. Even a maintenance free battery needs to be maintained as far as charging and discharging. 

 

Lastly, all AGMs are not the same. Even Cabelas has different grades of AGM's The OP bought the Advanced Angler AGM which are currently on sale and should share the same lifespan as a flooded cell if maintained properly. Their X900 series AGM is 3x the cost of the Advanced Angler AGM. Pricing is more in tune with Trojans as is the quality. So now we're talking dollars and cents. I can shell out $400 for 3 flooded cell Dekas that come with a 3 year warranty and if maintained properly will probably get 5, OR shell out $1300 for 3 Trojans or X900's that come with a 4 year warranty and may or may not 8 years out of them depending on maintenance. For me it's a no brainer.

Yep.  Math, an' stuff.

[WRB]

2018 - 2005 = 13 years.

Tom

[Way2slow]

Saying a battery last a certain amount of time is wrong, does not matter if AGM or not.

There are a number of factors that determine a batteries life and that is figured in cycle count, not time.  Cycle count is the number of times a battery can be discharged and charged.  Now, AGM's generally have a higher cycle count than flooded cells when it comes to TM batteries.   This means if you have a battery capable of 500 cycles, you theoretically could get 10 years using it 50 times a year, but over time cell degradation from age will reduce that.

The first thing is the charger.  Not all chargers are equal and how they charge the battery has a direct affect on battery life.  Good chargers are not cheap, and not all so called good chargers are really that good, just well advertised.  Then the public mind set.  I think a $300, three bank on board charger is a cheap charger and usually barely suitable, others think that's expensive and want a $100 thing that's close to useless and not suited for properly charging most any TM battery.  Iwill say, you can use a smaller charger on AGM  batteries because they don't require gassing like flooded cells, but then most cheap chargers don't have the electronics to properly charge AGM's.

Battery construction plays a large roll in how long they last.  The alloy used and how the plates are constructed, plus how the battery is constructed.

The discharge level plays a huge roll  in cycle count.  If you have huge, high amp hour batteries, bur only use them a few hours so they are still at 75% charge when done, the cycle count is very high.  If you use smaller batteries or use the crap out of the so they are only at 25% charge when done, the cycle count goes way down.  You might get 500 cycles at 75% and 200 at 25%.

Then you have the general maintenance, how/when you charge your batteries.  Let them sit for 24 hours below 80% charge and the are going to sulfate, reducing the batteries capacity.  Let it sit a month in a discharged state and it can become almost useless.

Manufactures have many things to consider when making a battery for the general public, and cost is one of the key items.  If the battery is too good, they can't sell enough and cost goes very high.  The average Joe Blow either can't afford or won't buy them.  So, they have to reduce quality enough to keep it useable within reason and cheap enough to keep their sales up.  Then they have size constraints where they have to pack a lot of ump in a fairly small package.

Look at industrial flooded cell batteries, they can last eight to ten years being discharged and charged every day, but can weigh hundreds of pounds or tons, and need several cubic feet of room.

[Stephen Ryan]

I’ve bought four of Universal over a few months for a solar power bank. They always arrive within about 5 days of placing the order. The batteries generally have arrived fully charged and are ready to go right out of the box. The nuts, bolts, and washers are included and I’ve had no problem attaching cables with 5/16″ cable terminals. This is the best source I’ve found for these AGM batteries and the seller (UPG) has been great to deal with.

[gim]

There’s so many variables involved with battery usage and maintenance and storage from one person to another that simply stating one type of battery is better or lasts longer or is worth paying for really doesn’t do any good. Unless all those variables are the same, what’s the point.

[Way2slow]

Wow, this one got resurrected from the dead.

I've always said, if there was a "one best" of anything, that would be the only one made because no one would want anything else.  What's best for one person use, may be totally wrong for another persons.

[TOXIC]

Since I last posted there’s a new twist to the battery saga.  Btw, I am still running my same setup with an Sears  PM1 AGM for my starting battery and 3 big wet cells for my trolling.  I did put a Minkota charger in my boat that has the AGM profile so no more portable charger needed.  They have been flawless.  One thing to remember is that some of the older motors should not be hooked up to an AGM for a starting battery.  Something to do with frying the stator or rectifier.  Now for the new twist.  I have a good buddy who likes to be on top of the electronics game and has the latest and greatest.  He bought some LION brand lithium batteries For his trolling motor and the new Power Pole Charge battery charger.  Big investment.  He was running out of juice On his AGM starting battery which has never happened.  After a lot of digging and correspondence between Power Pole and LION it was discovered that the lithium’s have an internal circuit that stops the charger when they are charged and the new Power Pole Charge pulls juice while on the water and sends it to any battery in the 4 bank system that shows low.  Because the batteries were trying to control the charge and not the charger, it was drawing from the AGM starting battery throughout the day trying to send juice to the lithium’s.  Complicated I know but he is not getting a good response from LION.  The second issue I have heard using lithiums is that the new trolling motors are burning up because they are not designed to take the full power load that lithiums put out for a longer time than AGM or wet cells that trail off gradually.  

[TnRiver46]

21 hours ago, TOXIC said:

Since I last posted there’s a new twist to the battery saga.  Btw, I am still running my same setup with an Sears  PM1 AGM for my starting battery and 3 big wet cells for my trolling.  I did put a Minkota charger in my boat that has the AGM profile so no more portable charger needed.  They have been flawless.  One thing to remember is that some of the older motors should not be hooked up to an AGM for a starting battery.  Something to do with frying the stator or rectifier.  Now for the new twist.  I have a good buddy who likes to be on top of the electronics game and has the latest and greatest.  He bought some LION brand lithium batteries For his trolling motor and the new Power Pole Charge battery charger.  Big investment.  He was running out of juice On his AGM starting battery which has never happened.  After a lot of digging and correspondence between Power Pole and LION it was discovered that the lithium’s have an internal circuit that stops the charger when they are charged and the new Power Pole Charge pulls juice while on the water and sends it to any battery in the 4 bank system that shows low.  Because the batteries were trying to control the charge and not the charger, it was drawing from the AGM starting battery throughout the day trying to send juice to the lithium’s.  Complicated I know but he is not getting a good response from LION.  The second issue I have heard using lithiums is that the new trolling motors are burning up because they are not designed to take the full power load that lithiums put out for a longer time than AGM or wet cells that trail off gradually.  

Sounds complicated and expensive, I’d rather just paddle than purchase and think about all that (not that I could purchase it anyway) 

 

I have 3 wet batteries, one to crank and two to troll. I use a $20 battery charger, never had much problem. I’m trying to fish not run a space shuttle 

[TOXIC]

3 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

Sounds complicated and expensive, I’d rather just paddle than purchase and think about all that (not that I could purchase it anyway) 

 

I have 3 wet batteries, one to crank and two to troll. I use a $20 battery charger, never had much problem. I’m trying to fish not run a space shuttle 

Reaching the limit of my comprehension level as well.  Many I know are going to a 5th stand alone battery for all the accessories.  With 16 inch screens, Multiple units, downs scan, side scan, 3D imaging, hydro wave, stereo and on and on, it’s just too much for 1 battery when you add in starting the big motor.  

[Way2slow]

Didn't notice I was in the wrong post.

[S Hovanec]

I installed 3 Blue Tops in 2005 when I bought my boat. I got 12 years out of the starting battery and 13 years out of the 2 trolling batteries.

 

Replaced them with Duracell AGMs from Sam's.  In the long run, I think the AGMs work out to be cheaper, or at least a wash.