Braid question

[Log Catcher]

I have never used braid on any of my combos. I have heard braid can damage the guides on a rod. My newest rod is three years old and some rods are between ten and fifteen years old. Is there any truth to braid damaging the rod guides?

[MN Fisher]

I started using braid on my old Ambassadeur setup when I purchased it new 15-20 years ago. I haven't noticed any wear on the guides. Newer rods, I think, would be even more able to withstand any abrasion.

[LionHeart]

I did a bit of reading on this when I switched everything to braid.  I am even using 30 lb test on a 20 year old Plueger Trion spinning combo and have seen no guide wear on it or any of my setups.

 

My concerns about braid hurting guides have been put to rest.

[NHBull]

I am more concerned about nicks in the guides fraying the braid, than the other way around 

[OnthePotomac]

I have a 15 year old KVD rod for frogs with 50lb 832 and not problem at all.

[MN Fisher]

8 minutes ago, NHBull said:

I am more concerned about nicks in the guides fraying the braid, than the other way around 

Check the guides often, use a diamond-file to smooth them out if needed

[Scott F]

When braided super lines first came out, Kevlar was the material that the lines were made of. Those lines were abrasive. None of the super lines (braid) today will hurt even older rods.

[Team9nine]

Only the tip tops where all the pressure is focused. I've had to have them replaced on half a dozen rods now from the effects of braid, both old and new. Loomis' to Lightning Rods and everything in between including one custom. 

[Brad in Texas]

2 hours ago, Team9nine said:

Only the tip tops where all the pressure is focused. I've had to have them replaced on half a dozen rods now from the effects of braid, both old and new. Loomis' to Lightning Rods and everything in between including one custom. 

Tips aren't typically the focal point of operational pressure. If you look at a rod under a heavy load where it is bent back toward its intended or targeted lifting point, the tip itself will be rather straight. See attached illustration. Rod tips DO break but I think when it occurs there, it is because they are easily damaged in transport, lying on boat decks, stepped on, etc. They can get nicked up and it go unnoticed. But, we'd never catch a fish of any size without breaking a rod if not for the fact that the forces on it are passed along to stronger and stronger sections.  Brad

Edited April 9, 2018 by Brad in Texas
oops

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, Brad in Texas said:

Tips aren't typically the focal point of operational pressure. If you look at a rod under a heavy load where it is bent back toward its intended or targeted lifting point, the tip itself will be rather straight. See attached illustration. Rod tips DO break but I think when it occurs there, it is because they are easily damaged in transport, lying on boat decks, stepped on, etc. They can get nicked up and it go unnoticed. But, we'd never catch a fish of any size without breaking a rod if not for the fact that the forces on it are passed along to stronger and stronger sections.  Brad

Can't say for certain the exact reason, but I don't abuse my rods, have only ever had to replace tips on spinning outfits (never casting), and I almost exclusively use braid on them, almost never use it on casting rods. Could be coincidence, but that seems awefully unlikely given the number of times this has occurred, combined with about twice the number of casting rods vs spinning, and many more older casting rods still in service without a hitch.

 

I'd also add that the tip can't go where the line doesn't take it first. Seems like in practical use it would take the brunt of the wear from the line whether playing fish or simply retrieving under pressure unless you just always pointed your rod straight at the bait or fish.

[Boomstick]

If you are worried about your guides, try a nice smooth braid that goes through the lines smoothly, like an 8 strand braid. I would recommend is Daiwa J-Braid x8 (they also make a x4 as well, but you want the x8).

 

If you want a more abrasion resistant braid that isn't too bad on the guides for heavier applications, I recommend the PowerPro Maxcuatro.

[Brad in Texas]

1 hour ago, Team9nine said:

Can't say for certain the exact reason, but I don't abuse my rods, have only ever had to replace tips on spinning outfits (never casting), and I almost exclusively use braid on them, almost never use it on casting rods. Could be coincidence, but that seems awefully unlikely given the number of times this has occurred, combined with about twice the number of casting rods vs spinning, and many more older casting rods still in service without a hitch.

 

I'd also add that the tip can't go where the line doesn't take it first. Seems like in practical use it would take the brunt of the wear from the line whether playing fish or simply retrieving under pressure unless you just always pointed your rod straight at the bait or fish.

For sure! We all have these different experiences with gear and it is hard to say what the factors are leading to success or failure with them. I think my main point was that a rod tip is not a particularly vulnerable place as loading on a rod increases from reeling and lifting against big strong/heavy fish. A properly tapered and engineered rod creates a shorter and shorter lever as it loads up. The lifting point moves farther away from the tip. 

 

So, as in that little attached illustration, a whole lot of the tip isn't even bent, is under no pressure at all. I'm not even sure if the line is making anything more than casual contact with the rod tip area in these circumstances. It is, though, for sure under pressure up on or around the two guides on each side of where the rod is actually stressed.

 

When rods explode, I think most people think the tip is the area most likely to break but it usually occurs much farther up the rod. One common way to see a rod snap rather high is when someone swings a too large fish over the gunwales and has the rod pointed up rather vertically. This prevents the load from transferring down the rod, the tip section bears the weight. Pop! Snap!  Brad

[Team9nine]

26 minutes ago, Brad in Texas said:

For sure! We all have these different experiences with gear and it is hard to say what the factors are leading to success or failure with them. I think my main point was that a rod tip is not a particularly vulnerable place as loading on a rod increases from reeling and lifting against big strong/heavy fish. A properly tapered and engineered rod creates a shorter and shorter lever as it loads up. The lifting point moves farther away from the tip. 

 

So, as in that little attached illustration, a whole lot of the tip isn't even bent, is under no pressure at all. I'm not even sure if the line is making anything more than casual contact with the rod tip area in these circumstances. It is, though, for sure under pressure up on or around the two guides on each side of where the rod is actually stressed.

 

When rods explode, I think most people think the tip is the area most likely to break but it usually occurs much farther up the rod. One common way to see a rod snap rather high is when someone swings a too large fish over the gunwales and has the rod pointed up rather vertically. This prevents the load from transferring down the rod, the tip section bears the weight. Pop! Snap!  Brad

So I did some searching and it turns out I think we're both right in some regards . Here's the best explanation I found over on the rodbuilding site to a question specifically dealing with the issue. Someone also pointed out that the tip top acts as a "wiper" for the line and thereby receives the majority of the "gunk" built up from off the line, leading to the most abrasion.

 

Quote

I could be mistaken but, I believe what you are seeing is rubbing friction due to line tension and rod deflection. As the line is tensioned and the blank rotated, the line forms a series of straight lines thru the rod arc. In between these straights the line is bent around the guides.

 

This creates an area of contact around the guide rather then a point of contact. This also reduces guide contact stress. Since the guide, in most cases, is a fixed bearing this allows friction to increase. 

 

The load may be small but the area of contact increases as the angle between adjacent guides increases creating rubbing friction. The tip top sees the most angular deflection, hence the greatest area, and the most friction even though the load is low. The butt guide experiences the highest load but the least angular deflection minimizing friction. Since the rod deflects greatest at the tip the rubbing friction will always be highest in the tip area.
 
All the guides on the rod are capable of bearing load. The effects of each are dependent on the others. As each guide is relocated it has an affect on every other guide on the blank.

 

Blank taper is at the manufactures control along with it's deflection characteristics. Angle of deflection and line tension are angler controlled. Stress is a function of load and area of contact. Friction is a function of load and contact area. 

The wrapping of the line around the guide reduces stress at the expense of increased friction. 

 

[Brad in Texas]

This sounds correct to me, that the tip guide is the one area that will be exposed to more "gunk" and even the tiny friction from a junction knot passing through it both directions. Too, the occasional over-reeled-in lure banging against it.

 

That little "relatively" soft tip area takes its hits, for sure. And, while it can withstand the pressure of a really large fish yanking on it, the magic of it passing its tension down deeper into the stiffer sections of the rod, we could literally reach up a break the tip off with very little effort gripping it and bending it.

 

Brad

[MickD]

I'm not going to argue the theory, only state my experience.  And that is that I've never had a guide groove but have had to replace many tiptops due to grooving.  Which is why I will build rods with many different guide ring materials with confidence, but always use SIC ringed tiptops.  Which I've never had to replace.

[Ratherbfishing]

Somewhat surprisingly, I had Yo-Zuri hybrid line wear major grooves in the tip guide of my Pflueger rod so, yes, sometimes line CAN rub guides the wrong way.  It depends on the material the line and the guides are made of.  There is no one single answer.

[Log Catcher]

Thank you to everyone for their input and info on this. I will think about it before I start using braid.

[NorthernBasser]

On 4/9/2018 at 10:32 AM, MN Fisher said:

Check the guides often, use a diamond-file to smooth them out if needed

Also, and I'm sure most know this, a good way to see if you have any nicks in your guides is to take a Q-Tip and circle it around inside the guides. If there's a nick, it will catch the cotton. 

[MickD]

I would not let any comments on this string deter you from using braid.  Even if tiptops groove, they are a piece of cake to replace, and the advantages of braid will most likely get you more fish.  I cannot imagine not using braid for most of my applications.  MUCH better sensitivity/bite detection, smaller diameter for more line capacity for smaller reel spools, and while it is more expensive than mono, it lasts for years (many reverse it on the reel after a few years) without getting curly/kinky/brittle/or anything else. (compared to mono.  Some florocarbons are more expensive than braid, and are much harder to handle).