Baitcaster casting technique

[Scott F]

1 hour ago, Jimmy King said:

If your baitcasters has centrifugal brakes , the handle must be toward the sky , in order for them to work . It's like the ride at six flags that spins and pins you against the wall. With the spool vertical,  you have a spinning top ! When the spool is horizontal , you have a winch . Tops spin much easier than winches . The brakes are forced to " fly " outward against the inside lip on the spool , when casting with the spool in the vertical position.  Handles up , toward the sky . Longer casts , without backlash are much easier this way . I have several sheets of instructions , that came in the box with my new reel . First thing in the casting section says " with the handles up , pointing toward the sky " ...... Hope this helps !

. .

You better check with your physics teacher about this. I don’t think you’ve got this right.  Put some water in a bucket. Swing the bucket from a rope the way a Ferris wheel turns. If you were right, the water wouldn’t stay in the bucket. Centrifugal force works in all directions. 

[MN Fisher]

Just now, Scott F said:

You better check with your physics teacher about this. I don’t think you’ve got this right.  Put some water in a bucket. Swing the bucket from a rope the way a Ferris wheel turns. If you were right, the water wouldn’t stay in the bucket. Centrifugal force works in all directions. 

It does, but again gravity comes into play. With the centrifugal brakes vertical, the brakes are working against gravity when they're moving 'up'. With the brakes parallel to the ground, they don't have to work against gravity pulling them 'back' on the 'upswing'.

 

Back to the bucket experiment - it's easier to swing the bucket around your head than up-and-down like a Ferris Wheel.

[Deleted account]

38 minutes ago, MN Fisher said:

It does, but again gravity comes into play. With the centrifugal brakes vertical, the brakes are working against gravity when they're moving 'up'. With the brakes parallel to the ground, they don't have to work against gravity pulling them 'back' on the 'upswing'.

 

Back to the bucket experiment - it's easier to swing the bucket around your head than up-and-down like a Ferris Wheel.

Yes, they would "work against" gravity when on top, but would also "work with" gravity when on the bottom. (I'm so sorry Mr Cohen, forgive them, for they know knot)...

[MN Fisher]

Just now, BassWhole! said:

Yes, they would "work against" gravity when on top, but would also "work with" gravity when on the bottom. (I'm so sorry Mr Cohen, forgive them, for they know knot)...

Yes, against gravity on the upswing, with gravity on the downswing - however with friction added in...and no matter your oil on the bearings there's going to be friction...not having to 'fight' gravity at all is easier.

 

Yes, I took college physics...yes I passed.

[J Francho]

If I tilt my bait caster to the left, will move my boat to the right?

[MN Fisher]

4 minutes ago, J Francho said:

If I tilt my bait caster to the left, will move my boat to the right?

Only if you give the hull a good kick.

[Deleted account]

16 minutes ago, MN Fisher said:

Yes, against gravity on the upswing, with gravity on the downswing - however with friction added in...and no matter your oil on the bearings there's going to be friction...not having to 'fight' gravity at all is easier.

 

Yes, I took college physics...yes I passed.

How are we adding friction?

[MN Fisher]

Just now, BassWhole! said:

How are we adding friction?

The spool doesn't spin suspended on 'fairy dust'. It rides on a (or more) bearing(s). Even with the bearing(s) perfectly lubed, there's going to be friction.

[OCdockskipper]

2 hours ago, EGbassing said:

I can't remember the last time I casted overhand. (only sidearm) Am I missing anything by not doing it?

"Missing" may not be the correct term, but there are times when an overhead cast has advantages. 

 

If you are seated when fishing, overhead is just about the only way you can cast.

 

If you are casting down the side of a dock or parallel to a bluff, an overhead cast is easier to keep in line with your target.

 

I'm sure there are other situations, those are just a few that came to mind.

[MN Fisher]

^ Gyroscopic action on a fishing spool is negligible. Big difference between a 40lb flywheel spinning at 'thousands' of RPM vs 1-2 oz spool spinning at a couple hundred RPM at best.

[Heartland]

On 4/7/2018 at 11:11 AM, OnthePotomac said:

Handle up can provide better brake performance.

I am interested, how so?

 

[Bass Turd]

Does anyone like mechanical wrist watches? The same principals for friction of wheel pivots in bearings can be observed. A watch that is dial up or dial down has all the wheels resting on one pivot or the other. Think of a spinning top on a tabletop times four. Friction is at it's lowest for all the wheels and the motion, or amplitude, of the balance will be at its highest. If the watch is held at crown up, down or sideways both pivots of each wheel will fight friction from resting in their jeweled bearings and amplitude will be at its lowest. Many times more surface area of the pivot is in contact with the bearing than if it is just the top of one pivot.

 

IMHO how you held a baitcaster during a cast had a much bigger impact decades ago before high-tech ball bearing manufacture and superfine lubrication was invented. I don't think it makes much practical difference today... but I could be wrong. 

[NHBull]

For me, thumbs finishing at 3 or 9 o'clock, depending on right/left make far more sense biomechanically  and allows you to use  larger muscle groups keeping tendons and ligaments in alignment  avoiding problems later.  Many of us are in pain today because we used poor techniques in strength training and sports when we were younger.

[fissure_man]

@BaitFinesse teach us, what does the gyro effect in that video have to do with our casting form and the merits of casting with a vertical or horizontal spool?

[haggard]

What weighs more: a pound of feathers or a pound of bricks?

 

[dodgeguy]

Clunn is 100 percent correct. It makes a huge difference.

[Heartland]

45 minutes ago, haggard said:

What weighs more: a pound of feathers or a pound of bricks?

 

digital or analog?

[Heartland]

 

[greentrout]

 

8:10 >>

[fissure_man]

@BaitFinesse there is no gyroscopic precession of a spinning spool regardless of orientation during a cast – the spool shaft is supported by bearings on both sides so no net torque is applied by gravity, and any direction of rotation other than around the spool shaft is restricted anyway (by the bearings, the reel, and your hand).  This is unlike the video examples, where the wheels are hung by string supported on only one side so they’re free to rotate and they have gravity (+ the string) supplying an off-axis torque.  Unless you’re constantly rotating the reel throughout the cast (how?), I don’t see the relevance of gyro effects. 

 

I believe the gravity effects discussed above by @MN Fisher are referring to the centrifugal brakes themselves, and how they behave when the spool is held horizontally or vertically.  Holding the spinning spool vertically doesn’t turn off gravity, but it does orient it’s force perpendicularly the direction of centrifugal force on the brakes.  While I agree that any difference here is probably negligible, it’s not because of gyro effects.  I’d wager it doesn’t matter because the centrifugal force driving the brakes outward is much greater than the (negligible) force of gravity pulling them downward. You could compare these easily enough with an estimate of spool RPM – mass of the brake tabs should cancel out. Even if this wasn’t true and gravitational force is significant, the result would be slightly greater braking force from friction against the underside of the brake ring, slightly lesser force from the upper side – still not sure the outcome be noticeable.

 

I’d guess @Bass Turd is on the right track in that spool orientation probably mattered more in the days before high quality ball bearings – unloading plastic bushings and spinning on the spool shaft tip might have had a meaningful impact on friction.

 

FWIW, I’m playing with a Daiwa Lexa that spins very freely held horizontally or with the handles up.  With handles down it’s noticeably rougher.  Not sure why, probably just needs cleaning.

[fissure_man]

7 hours ago, BaitFinesse said:

To say that there is no forces generated by gryoscopic precession because the shaft is supported on both ends is to say that it is the support of the shaft that creates the gyroscopic precession.  It is the rotation of the mass about an axis that creates the effect.  Yes the spool is captured by two bearings and there is no observable effect but there is a force vector along the spool shaft created by the rotating mass.  The right hand rule. 

 

The relevance of gyroscopic precession is that the force is there and and acting upon the spool even if it is captured by the bearings and cannot move. 

 

It’s actually a result of both – there is no precession or ‘precessional force’ by rotation alone when the body is symmetrical (balanced) about a fixed axis of rotation; it requires an additional force or disturbance acting to change the orientation of the rotation axis. In the video examples, the unbalanced torque caused by hanging from only one side acts to change the axis of the mass’s rotation, which is resisted by its inertia and results in precession.  If the spinning gyro wheel was supported on both sides (like a reel spool), there would be no off-axis net torque, and no precession (or associated force). If you’ve ever held one of these gyro apparatus, you can feel that there are no unusual forces in play until you start trying to change its angular momentum by turning the axis of rotation.

 

Like I said, you could create these gyro/precessional forces by rotating the reel throughout the cast (changing the spool’s axis of rotation), but there’s no reason to do this. 

[GrumpyOlPhartte]

You folks are making my head hurt!!!  Thank heavens that I’m such a lousy caster that it doesn’t matter!!! I just cast so it’s comfortable. ?

[new2BC4bass]

1 hour ago, GrumpyOlPhartte said:

You folks are making my head hurt!!!  Thank heavens that I’m such a lousy caster that it doesn’t matter!!! I just cast so it’s comfortable. ?

Me too!  Only a so-so caster.  I'm getting a headache cuz the subject has become so deep and I am so 

[Mhan7]

11 hours ago, fissure_man said:

@BaitFinesse

FWIW, I’m playing with a Daiwa Lexa that spins very freely held horizontally or with the handles up.  With handles down it’s noticeably rougher.  Not sure why, probably just needs cleaning.

 

There's also the small issues of dynamic balancing and vectored thrust.

 

Every bearing has a thrust angle.  Unless it's engineered to take thrust from all directions, in which case it's not going to be suitable for a high speed application - like a reel.  Your spool bearings are only designed to handle radial forces.  In other words, 100% of their usefulness is in resisting the forces that make the spool want to fly in the direction of rotation.  But if you started pushing on the spool side-to-side, you are going to put your spool bearings into physics hell.

 

So, I'm suggesting that in your case, if you change the orientation of the the mass along an axis, you change the weight. (weight = mass X gravity )  Weight is a force, so it acts upon whatever is attempting to restrain it.  Change the orientation during cast, you act against the thrust angle of the bearing an a different way.  Add that to the effects of any spool balancing issues, which are most prevalent at the point in the cast where you have the highest net total of spool RPM and spool mass. (since the spool mass is decreasing as line peels off, and RPM is increasing, up to a point)

 

One might say that this is negligible, and they're probably right.  You have a thrust washer on the spool to minimize side-to side movement.  Except when everything isn't just so...  and then one might start seeing things like rough spool rotation when the orientation is changed.

[fissure_man]

@Mhan7 interesting… I am under the impression that when the reel is rotated in any orientation other than horizontal, the component of its weight acting parallel to the spool shaft is fully supported by the contact of the spool shaft against its seating in the side plate or cast control cap (or that plastic “t” thing for free floating spools).  I.e. it’s not “hanging” from the bearings.

 

If that is the case, then the remaining component of the spool’s weight should be perpendicular to the spool shaft, and in line with the design loading configuration for the bearings (purely radial load).  This would be true regardless of the orientation of the reel, though the portion of the spool’s weight supported axially by the shaft tip vs. radially the bearings would obviously change. 

 

Is this too simplified (or incorrect) a view?

 

Maybe in the case of my Lexa, I have the spool tension too loose and it does end up ‘sitting’ on a bearing when held with the handles down… don’t have it here to fiddle with right now.  I don’t expect spool balance is an issue because I’m not convinced this would be orientation dependent…?  (at least for handles up vs. handles down)