Frog setup for ~$250

[optimator]

20 minutes ago, Riazuli said:

That statement is somewhat flawed, given the physics of gear ratios...lower gear ratio means bigger teeth and more torque vs smaller/thinner teeth (fragile might be a strong word here, but they simply aren't as strong as the gears in a lower ratio gear) and lower torque/more speed with a higher gear - sure, a quality reel with the right approach shouldn't be burning gears easily, but it happens.  

Not really. What I'm saying is the guys using fast reels on frog rods aren't blowing them up at some alarming rate. Not good reels anyways. Otherwise there would be 100 threads on it  

[WRB]

Who uses a reel to crank in a bass without using the rod to pull and lift the weight?

Tom

[optimator]

1 hour ago, WRB said:

Who uses a reel to crank in a bass without using the rod to pull and lift the weight?

Tom

Exactly! 

[Riazuli]

2 hours ago, optimator said:

Not really. What I'm saying is the guys using fast reels on frog rods aren't blowing them up at some alarming rate. Not good reels anyways. Otherwise there would be 100 threads on it  

No point in discussing further if you can't acknowledge simple laws of physics.  And no one said this was being done at an alarming rate...I simply used an experience from another user as a reference, and in my personal case, the lower gears apply.  

2 hours ago, WRB said:

Who uses a reel to crank in a bass without using the rod to pull and lift the weight?

Tom

you say that as if the reel isn't doing any work at times, with no force or friction places upon the gears... 

[WRB]

Didn't imply the reel doesn't see forces, it does. What I said is we don't operate the gear drive train as a wrench. The drags slip or should be set so the do, the anti reverse one way bearing lock the handle from turning backwards, we can lift the rod tip upwards to apply force to the fish and reel in line as we lower the rod tip. The reel frame takes loads via the spool shaft and bearings, non of this force should damage gears as long as the frame doesn't flex. It takes hundreds of force pounds to strip precision metal gears, unless the metal is of poor quality. 

Weak reel frame, weak metal used to make gears, poor quality control and the drive train can fail. Over the past 60 years fishing I never had a reel drive train gear failure. I have had drag disk fail from fast swimming fish like Marlin and tuns, had a spool shaft bend from a Black Sea bass locking up the reel,no issues with fresh water bass.

Tom

[Riazuli]

28 minutes ago, WRB said:

Didn't imply the reel doesn't see forces, it does. What I said is we don't operate the gear drive train as a wrench. The drags slip or should be set so the do, the anti reverse one way bearing lock the handle from turning backwards, we can lift the rod tip upwards to apply force to the fish and reel in line as we lower the rod tip. The reel frame takes loads via the spool shaft and bearings, non of this force should damage gears as long as the frame doesn't flex. It takes hundreds of force pounds to strip precision metal gears, unless the metal is of poor quality. 

Weak reel frame, weak metal used to make gears, poor quality control and the drive train can fail. Over the past 60 years fishing I never had a reel drive train gear failure. I have had drag disk fail from fast swimming fish like Marlin and tuns, had a spool shaft bend from a Black Sea bass locking up the reel,no issues with fresh water bass.

Tom

Thanks for clarifying, I get all of that - that doesn't mean that gears can't get burned, even quality ones and even from an experienced fisherman.  The thread I referenced is a perfect example of that...Daiwa tatula with a guy who seems like he knows what he's doing (but was admittedly under pressure at the time too).  The point is, it can happen, and for some cases, the lower gears are a better option.  In my case, for my preference and the fish and conditions I'm working with, a lower gear suits me.  It's all about being comfortable and having confidence in what you're working with - for some that's high gears in some situations, and for others it's low gears in some situations. 

[Dtrombly]

I use a Daiwa DX Type LT 7'4" H/F ($119.99 on TW) pair that with a Tatula CT or SV and its a killer heavy frog setup 

[Tywithay]

4 hours ago, Riazuli said:

That statement is somewhat flawed, given the physics of gear ratios...lower gear ratio means bigger teeth and more torque vs smaller/thinner teeth (fragile might be a strong word here, but they simply aren't as strong as the gears in a lower ratio gear) and lower torque/more speed with a higher gear - sure, a quality reel with the right approach shouldn't be burning gears easily, but it happens.  

The size of the teeth don't necessarily relate to the gear ratio. Bigger teeth doesn't necessarily mean more torque either. 

4 hours ago, Riazuli said:

 

 

[Riazuli]

2 hours ago, Tywithay said:

The size of the teeth don't necessarily relate to the gear ratio. Bigger teeth doesn't necessarily mean more torque either. 

 

relative to the same reel it does - I was attributing torque more to the gear ratio and not the teeth necessarily - that was just an additional factor to consider. 

[the reel ess]

I've got a Lew's Tournament MB reel 7.5:1 reels and the Cabela's 7'3" Tournament ZX Frog model rod. About $230 for the combo. You can sometimes catch the rod on sale for $75. I like the reel so much I have 3 of them. The rod is good for heavy cover. I usually fish frogs in lilies, so that works for me. If you were fishing them in more open water, I'd probably want one with more tip. 

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

6 hours ago, Riazuli said:

That statement is somewhat flawed, given the physics of gear ratios...lower gear ratio means bigger teeth and more torque vs smaller/thinner teeth (fragile might be a strong word here, but they simply aren't as strong as the gears in a lower ratio gear) and lower torque/more speed with a higher gear - sure, a quality reel with the right approach shouldn't be burning gears easily, but it happens.  

No that is incorrect.

The size of the teeth dont change based on gear ratio. 

[Riazuli]

9 minutes ago, QUAKEnSHAKE said:

No that is incorrect.

The size of the teeth dont change based on gear ratio. 

Can you explain how you fit more or less teeth on to a gear without changing the size of them?  I am comparing the same reel model with different ratios.  

[optimator]

8 minutes ago, Riazuli said:

Can you explain how you fit more or less teeth on to a gear without changing the size of them?  I am comparing the same reel model with different ratios.  

Dude, you need to go fishing or something 

[Riazuli]

On 4/6/2018 at 12:05 AM, optimator said:

Dude, you need to go fishing or something 

School and work.  Will get to go next week  

[WRB]

This is likecwatching a bebate between dumb and dumber. If you have a 1.00 D gear with 50 teeth and a 1.00 D gear with 100 teeth what gear has more teeth? Fine precision gear teeth are smoother then coarse precision gear teeth because more teeth are engaged. Micro precision gears are expensive because of very close tolerances to manufacture them so there is a trade off cost verses performance.

Tom

[Riazuli]

20 minutes ago, WRB said:

This is likecwatching a bebate between dumb and dumber. If you have a 1.00 D gear with 50 teeth and a 1.00 D gear with 100 teeth what gear has more teeth? Fine precision gear teeth are smoother then coarse precision gear teeth because more teeth are engaged. Micro precision gears are expensive because of very close tolerances to manufacture them so there is a trade off cost verses performance.

Tom

No need for name calling...your comment is also out of scope, so pretty ironic that you would say that.  Your comment about what gear has more teeth also doesn't make a point that's relevant here.  Can you explain the difference in a gear between the low, medium, and high gear ratio for a single series/model?  I am not comparing microprecision gearing to regular gearing, but gears within the same series of reel for a reasonable comparison... For example a metanium 100 hg compared to the xg version, both with microprecision gears. Lower gear ratios (at least within the same reel series) are stronger for a reason...what is that reason, seeing as you seem to be educated about this? 

[optimator]

[Jaderose]

*sigh*  C'mon summer.

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

18 hours ago, Riazuli said:

Can you explain how you fit more or less teeth on to a gear without changing the size of them?  I am comparing the same reel model with different ratios.  

The individual tooth size wont change.  The overall diameter of the gear will change based on number of teeth.

These gears have a 48 pitch and as you see all have different number of teeth but the teeth remain the same size. The gear ratio will change based on the combination used to pair them together. If I pair the 22 tooth gear to the 83 tooth gear the ratio will be 4.88 if I pair the 75 tooth to the 22 the gear ratio will be 3.4  The 83 to 17 ratio is 3.77 and the 75 to 17 ratio is 4.11, all different gear ratios.

Now the teeth didnt change size nor did they get stronger or weaker.

The teeth on the biggest gear are the same size as the teeth on the smallest gear. 

 

Could you be thinking of the "power" increase you get from using a lower geared reel like say a 5.5 to 1 ratio for big crankbaits, being easier to reel than the same model in an 8 to 1 ratio and you have to reel with more effort with same big crankbait?  

 

 

[Riazuli]

42 minutes ago, QUAKEnSHAKE said:

The individual tooth size wont change.  The overall diameter of the gear will change based on number of teeth.

These gears have a 48 pitch and as you see all have different number of teeth but the teeth remain the same size. The gear ratio will change based on the combination used to pair them together. If I pair the 22 tooth gear to the 83 tooth gear the ratio will be 4.88 if I pair the 75 tooth to the 22 the gear ratio will be 3.4  The 83 to 17 ratio is 3.77 and the 75 to 17 ratio is 4.11, all different gear ratios.

Now the teeth didnt change size nor did they get stronger or weaker.

The teeth on the biggest gear are the same size as the teeth on the smallest gear. 

 

Could you be thinking of the "power" increase you get from using a lower geared reel like say a 5.5 to 1 ratio for big crankbaits, being easier to reel than the same model in an 8 to 1 ratio and you have to reel with more effort with same big crankbait?  

 

 

Now, THERE is a response and explanation I can live with.  Thank you!  That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for, and the picture diagram explains it perfectly - I actually did an admittedly short search for something like that with no luck.  

 

So, using a metanium 100 or really any other low profile baitcaster as an example - do the sizes of the reels actually vary within a series?  Like does a met100 hg vary in overall reel frame size from a met100 xg? (I imagine the actual frame might not need to vary in size, but somehow they are able to vary the size of gears within the frame).  

 

Also, yes I am more referring to power, and as you can see I clarified several times that the torque was the main thing I was considering, with my thought about teeth just being an additional factor.  I did think about gears varying in width, but then wondered about reel sizes changing within a single series of reels.  

[Shimano_1]

I've built several custom rods. I basically got away from it simply because if I break one I have to build another.  Having said that there are a lot of nice options. I personally prefer a lil softer rod than most. I've been using a carbonlite 7ft med hvy and for the money it's hard to beat. As far as reels, any lews above the speed spool are great. I prefer the tournament pro g reels!  Good luck 

[biggiesmalls]

Wow, this thread went a whole different direction! To each his own with gear ratios, I will be going with a higher gear ratio for frogs. It's a bass, not a tuna. It's not stripping gears, it's not spooling a reel. It's a ~5 pound fish, if that. Fun to catch, but not a powerful gamefish. 

 

I am not sure what reel I will go with, but I think it will be either Daiwa or Lews. I'll update the thread when I decide on the reel. 

 

Drew

[Riazuli]

I think I should clarify again, that it's possible I'm catching close to 15lb snakehead where I'll be using my only low (5.4) gear setup in a low profile freshwater baitcaster (in very heavy vegetation/slop at that).  I've got higher gears for other setups. 

[biggiesmalls]

3 hours ago, Riazuli said:

I think I should clarify again, that it's possible I'm catching close to 15lb snakehead where I'll be using my only low (5.4) gear setup in a low profile freshwater baitcaster (in very heavy vegetation/slop at that).  I've got higher gears for other setups. 

High gear ratio reels are used for 15+ lb peacock bass in the Amazon quite often, ripping big woodchoppers. That fish will leave an equal-sized snakehead in the dust. 

[Riazuli]

6 hours ago, biggiesmalls said:

High gear ratio reels are used for 15+ lb peacock bass in the Amazon quite often, ripping big woodchoppers. That fish will leave an equal-sized snakehead in the dust. 

Thanks for the tip, again.  Luckily, I've got a wide selection of gear ratios to work with for whatever suits my particular needs.  I hope yours works out well for you!