Why do the older legendary pros struggle to compete ? ?

[Sam]

I am going to take on this topic from another point of view.

 

Last month I read an article about guys doing the same thing on bodies of water they had fished in the past.

 

The article pointed out that what happened the last time they fished a specific body of water they had good results.

 

So when the old pros go back to the bodies of water they have fished in the past they do the same thing, including visiting the same spots they had success.

 

But things change and by the time they change their pattern or location it is too late. They run out of time or can't find the fish again.

 

Just a different perspective on why the older guys may not be doing that well against the younger guys who have no perceived concepts about the lakes and river they fish.

[Catt]

7 hours ago, Turtle135 said:

To some degree but I think you would agree that the amount of information that one individual could recall from a tournament that occurred 15 seasons back would be limited.

 

How old are you?

 

I'm 67 yrs old & can still recall detailed information from 30-40 yrs with great accuracy. 

 

Little off subject but I recently took a Hazmat course that included a 16 hr test, I aced it in 8 hrs, 20-30 yr olds took the whole 16 hrs plus.

 

Why cause they have been around hazardous materials for 2-5 yrs, I've around it 40-45 yrs. The equipment has changed but dealing with hazardous materials aint changed.

 

 

[Turtle135]

2 hours ago, Catt said:

How old are you?

I am 56.

 

Let me give you an example. I fished the KBF Open on Santee Cooper back in March of 2013. I can remember exactly where I found my bass in that event and what presentation I used. I had never seen that body of water prior to that tournament nor I have been back there since but I could still paddle my kayak right back to those exact spots today. However that information that I can recall is "limited". I do not know exactly where or how the anglers in the top 5 caught their fish in that tournament. They were in no mood to share that information then as KBF would be holding another March Tournament on Santee Cooper the following year.

 

Back to my original question. If a tournament was held where no electronics could be used and no historical internet information could be obtained then who would that favor? My opinion, give me a legendary pro like a Rick Clunn who has years and years of experience in locating bass based on seasonal patterns and current conditions.

 

Who would you choose (legendary pro or young gun) and why?

 

 

 

[Tlauz]

I think a lot of the older pros still "want to " win as bad as young guns, but they do not "have to" like younger pros.  They have good relationships with sponsors, are well known by fans, and may not need to cash a check at every event.  This may affect how much time you spend preparing. Also, I know family affects how much time you can or want to spend fishing.  As much as we all would like to think we are getting better (mentally yes), physically we are not.  You always hear athletes say Father Time is undefeated.  I know losing 10 pounds when I was 25 was a snap.  Losing 10 pounds now is a major undertaking.  

[68camaro]

Aside from some great philosophers, most did their most important stuff when much younger. I read where as philosophers age their brains aren't able to think as deeply as when younger.

[Catt]

49 minutes ago, Turtle135 said:

Back kto my original question. If a tournament was held where no electronics could be used and no historical internet information could be obtained then who would that favor? My opinion, give me a legendary pro like a Rick Clunn who has years and years of experience in locating bass based on seasonal patterns and current conditions.

 

Who would you choose (legendary pro or young gun) and why?

 

 

 

The General ?

 

 

 

[1simplemann]

I suspect that there a lot of reasons but I think that the biggest one is that the younger generation has caught up. They are hungry! Some of these guys eat, sleep and breath fishing. They have more drive and less family commitment so they throw their absolute all into it. The learning curve is much shorter. All the techniques are right on the internet to learn. Back in the day, it took some of the "legends" years to master their skills. Clunn and Fritts cranked, Shaw and Klien flipped, KVD power fished and so forth. They taught us how to find and catch fish. The younger generation was paying attention. It took years for the legends to find their spots. Now, with today's technology the young guns can find them in less than a week or days or hours. They are willing to look, look, and look some more till they find what they are looking for. Wheeler went to Cherokee for a week and did nothing but graph. He had 800 waypoints! If you apply that and good fishing skills, your gonna win or at least do well. The older guys might not be putting that much into it so therefore their results are not what they once were even though they are not doing anything different than what they did earlier in their careers. Their skills haven't diminished. KVD struggled for few years. Still competitive but not winning. He said "fishing history" was big part of the problem. He was fishing where they once were instead of where they were. He basically said that he realized that he had to step up his game to remain competitive.  That's why I like the MLF format so much. Here's a lake, a map, and a boat. Go fishing! It's a true test angling ability.

[Gundog]

1 hour ago, Tlauz said:

I know losing 10 pounds when I was 25 was a snap.  Losing 10 pounds now is a major undertaking.  

I knew there was a reason I hadn't seen my feet in years. 

[scaleface]

48 minutes ago, 1simplemann said:

I suspect that there a lot of reasons but I think that the biggest one is that the younger generation has caught up. They are hungry! Some of these guys eat, sleep and breath fishing. They have more drive and less family commitment so they throw their absolute all into it. The learning curve is much shorter. All the techniques are right on the internet to learn. Back in the day, it took some of the "legends" years to master their skills. Clunn and Fritts cranked, Shaw and Klien flipped, KVD power fished and so forth. They taught us how to find and catch fish. The younger generation was paying attention. It took years for the legends to find their spots. Now, with today's technology the young guns can find them in less than a week or days or hours. They are willing to look, look, and look some more till they find what they are looking for. Wheeler went to Cherokee for a week and did nothing but graph. He had 800 waypoints! If you apply that and good fishing skills, your gonna win or at least do well. The older guys might not be putting that much into it so therefore their results are not what they once were even though they are not doing anything different than what they did earlier in their careers. Their skills haven't diminished. KVD struggled for few years. Still competitive but not winning. He said "fishing history" was big part of the problem. He was fishing where they once were instead of where they were. He basically said that he realized that he had to step up his game to remain competitive.  That's why I like the MLF format so much. Here's a lake, a map, and a boat. Go fishing! It's a true test angling ability.

 My thinking was along the same line as yours . I remember Gary Klein lived in his pick-up truck . He had to catch fish or go home . Now there is not as much pressure on them .. Mark Davis was still competitive last season .

[Sam]

Turtle, I remember how I fished every body of water I fish now. If I can't recall everything, I have paper maps that I have recorded my and my fishing partners' places where we caught them.

 

I am planning to hit Lake Gaston in April and already know how I will be fishing it based on past experiences. Right or wrong, this is the way I fish as I have confidence in the fact that the last times on Lake Gaston I caught them at specific locations.

 

Now for the guys who have not fished Lake Gaston in the past or fished it a few times, I expect them to run down to the dam area.

 

Where will I go?  Not far from the launch site on Poplar Creek. But I ain't telling.  

[OCdockskipper]

On 3/2/2018 at 7:35 AM, senile1 said:

Good question, but one that I can't answer.  I know as I have grown older I am a better angler than I was when I was younger...

While this applies to me as well, I think it doesn't play a role because I (we?) weren't "Elite" level anglers when we were young.  We had a lot of room to grow, whereas someone like Jordan Lee is already well past where we will end up and will not get better exponentially.  I don't fish tournaments, but I catch more & bigger fish on my home lake than the couple of younger guys who do fish it.  The main reason is because they are casual fisherman, i.e., me when I was younger.  If any of them had the drive to become a pro, they would most likely surpass me.

 

I believe stamina has alot to do with it.  The sport (game?) I was competitive in was bowling and when I reached my 50's, I found I could still be the top average in a league full of twenty-somethings.  However, that was bowling 3 games once a week.  If we bowled a 10 gamer for 4 nights in a row, I believe the younger bowlers would pass me.  

 

Technology also plays a role, but I believe differently than what others have said.  Technology allows younger anglers to catch up to older anglers without having to put in the time on the water, it kind of negates a lot of the experience that use to give older guys an edge.  That applied to bowling as well, where the skill of learning how to read the lanes has been negated by the ability to just choose a different ball that reacts to the lane conditions in the way that you want it to.  I see this in fishing big time.  For example, look what Larry Nixon & the others had to do to create and figure out how to make & fish a jerkbait.  Younger anglers don't have to go through that process, they just buy one.

 

Lastly, an obvious factor is there are more anglers under 40 than over 60.  Last year, Clunn & Grigsby were in the bottom 10 of AOY, but the other 8 spots were 20 & 30 year olds.  The Elite series is also getting tougher, there are less & less Charlie Hartleys on it and more Jason Christies & Brent Ehlers, so the Clunn's & Grigsbys (or any of the top anglers for that matter) don't have the built in edge they once did.

[WRB]

In a word stamina. Older anglers have the skills, the drive, the knowledge to compete with younger anglers. You could toss in KVD in the older group now, do you think he is over the hill? Pro tournament anglers in thier 50's are at the top of thier game.

Age for some younger people who have never lived long enough to experience getting older think we slow down mentally and some older folks do others don't. Very few older anglers who have spent a life time on the water remain physically fit to travel and fish 3 to 4 tournaments days in a row under all types of weather conditions have the stamina to perform at the top of their game for the year.

Tom

 

[Catt]

If ya really wanna find out who's the best then a Megabucks floor mat is the best way.

 

Under a Megabucks format the lake was divided into 12 sections, each angler starts in a section & then they rotate through sections until each angler fished all 12 sections. Try fishing behind KVD, Clunn, Roland Martin, Gary Klein, Denny Brauer & others. 

 

Larry Nixon was the first to $1,000,000 with 4 Megabucks wins, a feat not even KVD or Clunn accomplished, they never won one.

 

Oh yeah! I wanna see where this young guns are in 10-15-20 yrs!

[OCdockskipper]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

...a Megabucks floor mat is the best way...

 

...Oh yeah! I wanna see where this young guns are in 10-15-20 yrs!

I use Megabucks floor mats at all of my doors!!  

 

In 10-20 years, I think Jordan Lee, Brandon Palaniuk & Jacob Wheeler may well be the KVD's & Aaron Martens of today.  There will be many over that time who have great runs for a year or two and are solid anglers, but don't distinguish themselves as the top of their field.  I think of someone like Bill Lowen who had a fantastic season the last time Martens won AOY.  He has since slid back to being a dependable Elite angler who cashes a majority of the time.  Many really good anglers will fall into this category.

 

I also think you may see less anglers fish competitively into their 60's in the future, at least in the current BASS or FLW tournament formats.  The MLF format is actually more forgiving to someone who is older and may reward those who have a plethora of experience.  Instead of 3 days of practice & 4 days of fishing, you have 3 days of fishing spread over 5 days or so, on smaller lakes with less travel.  A little easier for older bones to recover.

[Catt]

I don't see any young guns setting themselves apart from the crowd!

 

I see some really good anglers but no legends ?

[1simplemann]

3 hours ago, Catt said:

I don't see any young guns setting themselves apart from the crowd!

 

I see some really good anglers but no legends ?

Lee, BP and Wheeler are on their way. Time will tell but they are a threat anytime they are on the water.

[OCdockskipper]

3 hours ago, Catt said:

I don't see any young guns setting themselves apart from the crowd!

 

I see some really good anglers but no legends ?

Well, legendary status is something that takes time.  At one time, both Rick Clunn & Bobby Murray had both won 2 Classics each.  It was only years and additional accomplishments later that Clunn was considered a legend and Murray wasn't.

 

As for setting themselves apart from the crowd, how about these legends in the making:

• Wheeler wins the first 2 Elite events he enters and finishes 3rd in AOY in his "rookie" year on the Elites;
   
• Palaniuk is in the top 5 in his first Classic as a Nation angler at a time when most Nation Anglers finish in the bottom 10 of the Classic (with one notable legendary exception).  He wins an Elite title his rookie year, and in his second year, suffers a crushing disqualification while running away with a tournament only to turn around & win the next tournament by making a 100 mile run everyday to his area.  Last year, he crashes to a 103 place finish in the 2nd tournament only to turn it around & win AOY.  C'Mon, if those things aren't legends in the making...!!
   
• Lee, like Clunn, gets his first major tournament win at the Classic.  Not only does he charge back from 14th place, he did it only catching a dozen fish to the other contenders 15.  Had he caught 15, he would have won by 15 -20 lbs.  Although Lee had a solid year last year with a 4th place AOY finish, all Classic winners say the commitments after winning a Classic can't be anticipated and I think that may have slowed him down a bit.  With that experience under his belt, a huge 2018 wouldn't surprise me.  Can you say back to back Classics for his first 2 victories?  That would be very Clunn like.

 

As an aside, I grew up watching Clunn, Nixon & Klein, so I don't dismiss their accomplishments at all.  Some of the things they did at the time, considering where equipment and electronics were at, was amazing.  KVD & AMart had their own set of challenges that they mastered as they rose to the pinnacle and the newer anglers will have newer obstacles as well.

[Catt]

@OCdockskipper do ya really wanna throw numbers out there?

 

You mentioned Bobby Murray, he qualified for eight consecutive Classics winning two of them using spinning tackle long before anybody heard of a drop shot.

[WRB]

You can't put Aaron Martens in the same age group as KVD, Aaron is 5 years younger, KVD is 50 years old, both may continue tournaments for another decade.

Rick Clunn is a very unique individual, still fishes Opens at 71, Larry Nixon still competes on FLW at 67 and both are active legends in bass fishing. 

Only time will determine where the young guns today end up at the end of thier careers. Today's younger pro's have better eating habits, better physical training and more comfortable traveling vehicles and boats, they should be in better physical condition improving thier stamina. 

I personally feel my bass catching skills are better today at nearly 75 then they were 50 years ago. There is no doubt my health and stamina is a fraction of what it was 50 years ago. 25 years ago when 50, I was fishing all the time and working full time, catching giant bass regularly and at the top of my career. Bass pro's should also be at the top of their careers in the 50's.

Tom

 

[RB 77]

On 3/2/2018 at 12:08 PM, 12poundbass said:

Keep in mind Mr. Clunn a couple years back won, and a few years before that went toe to toe with Keith Combs on Amistad. He/they may not be up there on the leaderboard week in and week out, but keep in mind there are plenty of young bucks that aren't either. Take a look at the FLW roster (nothing against FLW) and you'll see some names that will refresh your memory of their Elite days. Yet Mr. Clunn, Mr. Grigsby and others are still fishing the Elites year after year. 

 

I'll start the list of young bucks:

Jason Quinn

Derik Remitz

Chad Grigsby

 

 

That win was nothing short of amazing and I feel is a testament to why he is one of the best to ever do it.

On 3/3/2018 at 8:01 AM, Catt said:

The General ?

 

 

 

 

Seeing were both worm draggers at heart, he would be my choice as well, no doubt about it!

[OCdockskipper]

2 hours ago, Catt said:

@OCdockskipper do ya really wanna throw numbers out there?

 

You mentioned Bobby Murray, he qualified for eight consecutive Classics winning two of them using spinning tackle long before anybody heard of a drop shot.

Those numbers don't make those 3 legends by any means, but IF they are the beginning of legendary careers, those accomplishments will be cited as such years from now, probably when you & I are fishing St. Peters Creek (if you let me in the back of your boat) .

 

Mentioning Bobby Murray was not meant as a slight to him, but rather an example of how time changes how anglers are looked upon.  At the time Murray won his second Classic, he & Clunn were probably looked upon as having similar careers.  It wasn't until decades later that separation occurred between their career results and their placement in a ranking of greatest ever.

[Senko lover]

I defer to those with much more experience in the sport than I have for an authoritative answer. But one thing I have noticed from learning about the history of professional fishing is the rise of versatility. There was a bass master article about this at some point. In order to survive in the Elite series right now, you have to be versatile. Back in the day, there were people that only fished a spinnerbait or only fished deep or only fished shallow. Today there are anglers that have specialties (Bill Lowen likes fishing shallow, Hank Cherry throws a jerk bait all the time, etc.) but it seems like every tournament you have guys with 35 rods rigged up covering every bait at every depth. Junk fishing and versatility have taken over specialties. That's changed the game. 

 

There's a crazy amount of behind-the-scenes work that goes into an Elite tournament. Unless you're Boyd Duckett, most of the guys can't afford to fly to tournaments. They drive extremely long distances in a truck to get there. After they set up, they spend two days staring at their electronics on the water for 12 hours a day. They rig up rods and baits at night and don't get much sleep during practice. If they make the cut on day two, there's a total of four days of fishing. That's a strain on anyone, let alone someone who's not in their physical prime. 

 

My grandparents are around Rick Clunn's age and a 7 hour road trip puts them on the couch for two days. For the record, he won an Elite series tournament on the St. John's river in 2016 at the age of 69. That's a testament not only to his skill and experience but it also says that he's in great shape. Don't count him out  

 

 

[Catt]

Legend as defined by Advanced Angler

 

A Legend of the sport is someone who has made significant contributions or achieved uncommon accomplishments en route to leaving an indelible mark on the history of the sport. These are individuals who have set new standards, created new trends and driven the bar to new heights.

 

Like I said let's see where these young guns are in 20 years!

[1simplemann]

5 hours ago, Catt said:

Legend as defined by Advanced Angler

 

A Legend of the sport is someone who has made significant contributions or achieved uncommon accomplishments en route to leaving an indelible mark on the history of the sport. These are individuals who have set new standards, created new trends and driven the bar to new heights.

 

Like I said let's see where these young guns are in 20 years!

Time will tell.

[scaleface]

I know one thing , when I got into  Fantasy fishing last year I picked a lot of Rick Clunns, Shaw Grigsbys , Tim Hortons , Paul Elias , Gary Kleins ,David Fritz and other than Horton winning an event the others were always no shows .