Future's In Your Hands ~

[TnRiver46]

Just now, MickD said:

Probably because the bass prey on salmon eggs or fry?  And they are prioritizing their salmon/trout fishery first?  Or at least that is the perception?  On Lake St Clair their are fishermen who kill muskies and throw them back no matter what size they are because the fishermen blame muskies for hurting the perch population.

People do that here with gar. They don't quite realize that all the native fish in the water have coexisted for a few thousand years

[Paul Roberts]

On 1/30/2018 at 7:14 PM, A-Jay said:

 

A-Jay

Does give one pause.

 

Those numbers are pretty much the same for the LM's where I fish.

On 1/31/2018 at 6:49 AM, Glenn said:

The growth rates listed are misleading, but I think it's designed to spark conversation. To that end, mission accomplished.

 

Those values are higher than only 10% of the fish across their range (i.e., slow growth). The average growth rates for smallmouth bass are much faster: https://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/fish-biology.html

 

Actually, the table shows that A-Jay's numbers are just about spot on -for the national average. The article says:

 

The "average" is for all populations sampled across the species' entire geographic range. We also provided the 10th and 90th percentiles. The 10th percentiles mean that those values were higher than only 10% of the fish across their range (i.e., slow growth). The 90th percentile means that those values were higher than 90% of the sampled fish for that species across its entire range (fast growth).

 

The "percentiles" in the table show growth rates for more rare circumstances: The 10th percentile is lowest 10% in growth rate. And the 90th, the upper 10% in growth rate. The percentiles are arbitrary cutoffs. Few of us fish those 10%, or 90% waters. Where do each of our waters fall? We'd need the data to really know. Some of my waters obviously have better growth rates than others. And I follow the waters that hold promise.

 

For me, in my waters (decidedly "average"), it hurts to see 10+ yr old bass hauled out to the parking lot and dropped in the trunk of a car. I will usually let them know how old that fish likely is. If I get any flack, I say, "Do the math. Keep the smaller ones, please!" I feel justified because they are public waters, which means they're shared. It's a matter of respect -for the whole food chain.

[Paul Roberts]

On 1/31/2018 at 3:39 PM, MickD said:

A-Jay, are you aware we have an idiot here in MI who has in the past advocated, and probably will again, for tournaments on the spawning beds?  Catch and immediate release is not as benign as most think, as a significant number of fish die, but to do a tournament that removes fish from the beds is suicide for the beds' young bass.  If you are not aware, and would like more info, PM me.  My son testified before the DNR when the last proposal was made, and he and others prevailed in getting the  proposal denied.  But it will come up again.

 

On 2/1/2018 at 6:31 AM, MickD said:

... My opinion is that the proposal was so ridiculous that it could have been denied based on common sense.  

Not at all interested in getting into the heat, but, just to clarify something:

 

Studies from N and S show opposite results. Bed disturbances are much more detrimental in the N than in the S. It has to do with harshness of winters, duration of spawn season, ability to recuperate after, and overall biological productivity of waters. N and S are very different places. This is why regs are more restricted in the N. Thus, it's not necessarily "common sense".

 

I'm hearing you A-Jay. Ice-out is imminent. Did you know that the first day of spring (at least at my latitude) is Feb 10th?! It's the beginning of the end for winter. :))

[Paul Roberts]

On 2/2/2018 at 5:13 AM, slonezp said:

Displacing fish? Come on man. Fish aren't people. They don't need comfort crawdads to get them thru tough times. If anything, pulling fish off a bed where nuptials have already taken place will allow the eggs to be open season for nest raiders. Not to mention, not all bass spawn in clear shallow water. Many are smart enough to spawn in deeper less clear areas especially smallmouth. 

Some fish are impacted more greatly than others when displaced. It's a complex world down there, and bass are remarkably adaptable. But they are more so as a population than as individuals. Given a diverse lake, a given year class gets divvied up across the lake, with different groups of bass figuring out different ways to make a living. Some areas/food sources are better than others. Many (the tournament winners ) end up at those peak sources. Others...  find other ways to make a living that... get those fish by; What's known as "false peaks".

 

Many studies have found some behavioral "clustering" (statistically speaking) around home range size, suggesting that some fish are home-bodies and others are wanderers. Not always, but wandering is often more costly and an indication that the fish are not getting the best deal. One thing that's been found is that T-released fish have a higher likelihood of becoming wanderers. In a really productive lake, there might just be room and board for displaced fish. In others, maybe not. I would suspect that N fish are more apt to fall into the latter category.

On 2/5/2018 at 12:54 PM, J Francho said:

Females may stick around the nest, but not for too long.  Males are the ones that guard the nest until the fry are free swimming.

A-yup. Although in SM (and apparently, FL LM), females can take a more aggressive role around the bed, at least as long as they are there.

On 2/5/2018 at 10:07 PM, slonezp said:

If I recall from @Paul Roberts video, it's only a day or so.

That's as I understand it and, so far, have seen. I think this is bc they tend to move to spawn under promotive conditions, and can get the job done pretty quickly. There is evidence that bass may pair -or at least closely associate with their spawning partner- way early, during winter even. But the movement to actually spawn tends to follow specific conditions. At least this is what I see in my northern small ponds.

 

I've seen females hanging around longer, but this has been when all the males are already occupied with eggs, or in ponds with few eligible males. One year, in a very small 3acre pond, I saw only 3 males attempt to make beds. At one point, the largest male, with apparently the most attractive site, had a line up of females, including the 3 largest in the pond, lined up outside his bed. The females actually began to fight with each other for access. The largest female took the spot, and the others just had to hang back and... be ornery.

[walleye13]

Good insight Paul. Interesting perspective on the displaced fish issue. Thanks for sharing that.

[MickD]

11 hours ago, Paul Roberts said:

Thus, it's not necessarily "common sense".

lt's still common sense.  It's common sense + science.  Science and common sense agree.

[Oregon Native]

23 hours ago, MickD said:

Probably because the bass prey on salmon eggs or fry?  And they are prioritizing their salmon/trout fishery first?  Or at least that is the perception?  On Lake St Clair their are fishermen who kill muskies and throw them back no matter what size they are because the fishermen blame muskies for hurting the perch population.

Forestry practices and birds along with the loving seals do far far more damage.....bass is an easy scapegoat for their way of thinking.  It's a unique part of the good ol US.

[Spankey]

Mining, mineral exploration, gas and oil fracking play a lot worse of an enemy. The recklessness in Washington of deregulation is a huge threat. If someone want to keep a fish or to to eat. Enjoy. Tournament fishing can be worked out or time slotted. These issues are small time. 

 

I'm not making this a political rant. It is a real world problem of altering fish habitat that I feel plays a bigger factor. 

[Paul Roberts]

10 hours ago, MickD said:

lt's still common sense.  It's common sense + science.  Science and common sense agree.

I hear you. Expecting people to understand science can be like... banging one's head against a wall. I like Carl Sagan's quote: "Opinion is easy; Knowledge takes work." And, sadly, not everyone has access, and therefore, interest enough -or the time for that matter- to do the work.

 

The difficulty with this particular issue is that the science says different things depending on where you live. And people tend to form opinions around what they most want to believe. Glad to hear that the managers there have done the work, and are holding the line.

[TOXIC]

another thing to remember, is that science is never an absolute.  The nature of science is to be questioned or we would all be "flat earthers"

[TnRiver46]

They could just run the tournaments like kayak fishing and let the fish go after a measurement 

[Justin62882]

The finest gift you can give to any fisherman is to put a good fish back, and who knows if the fish that you caught isn't someone else's gift to you?

[MickD]

There is at least one fisherman on Sag Bay who snips the top of the tail a little to mark his releases.  I wish he didn't do that, but doesn't seem to harm the fish.  One of our biggest of a couple years ago was marked that way.  

[J Francho]

1 hour ago, MickD said:

There is at least one fisherman on Sag Bay who snips the top of the tail a little to mark his releases.

For what purpose?  That fin will heal in a week or two.

[Paul Roberts]

12 hours ago, Justin62882 said:

The finest gift you can give to any fisherman is to put a good fish back, and who knows if the fish that you caught isn't someone else's gift to you?

And sometimes we do. Once upon a time, I caught a large bass off a small rubble hump in August on a crankbait. She was missing her left eye, and was on the thin side. "Old fish", I thought. My fishing buddy caught her again a year later, in August, off the same hump, on a crankbait. He said she was in great condition and may have been as much as a pound heavier.

[Justin62882]

55 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said:

And sometimes we do. Once upon a time, I caught a large bass off a small rubble hump in August on a crankbait. She was missing her left eye, and was on the thin side. "Old fish", I thought. My fishing buddy caught her again a year later, in August, off the same hump, on a crankbait. He said she was in great condition and may have been as much as a pound heavier.

That is awesome! Me and a couple people fished this pond about 15 years ago. A buddy caught this one eyed bass. He was released and we decided to nickname him "one eyed willy". And we actually all ended up catching him one time a piece over the next 2 years. Another thing that's cool is Stephen Douglas had a catfishing channel on YouTube he was out fishing in a video and catches this nice flathead that has a specific weird feature I can't remember.someone posted in his comments of the same location of the river with the same fish that was caught after that video was out. I thought that was pretty cool.

[Paul Roberts]

That's a fun story. Yes, there are lots of stories like that going around. My waters are public and hard fished, so I know -we should all know- that those fish are recycled. This isn't to say that bass, esp, shouldn't be harvested. But I feel the big ones -the older ones- should be put back. And I sure have appreciated it, sometimes more than once.

 

[MickD]

On 2/12/2018 at 8:29 AM, J Francho said:

For what purpose? 

As stated, to mark fish he has caught before.  It's just the curiosity thing in wondering if one has caught the same fish more than once.  I caught the same smallie twice in the same day, could tell from a bad eye.  Probably have caught the same fish many times before, but don't know it.

[J Francho]

I know I've caught the same fish several times.  A pretty big one at that.  It's been 6-2, 5-11, and 6-3 on the three times I weighed her. 

Clipping the fin is really dumb.  It grows back rather quickly, and all he's doing is introducing the risk of a fin rot infection.  I don't want to perpetuate this practice at all.

[BassNJake]

On 2/1/2018 at 8:31 AM, MickD said:

The SCIENTISTS from I believe three states who testified in the MI DNR hearings regarding THE PROPOSAL TO ALLOW TOURNAMENTS WHICH WOULD TAKE SMALLMOUTH BASS OFF THE BEDS TO BE WEIGHED AT A LATER TIME were unanimous in the position that this would be disastrous to the population, providing scientific studies to support their arguments.  With respect for your opinion, the other factors you mention have not caused the "disastrous" decline in the smallmouth population that the scientists were predicting if tournaments were allowed while the bass were on the beds and the taking of bass to remote weighing was done.  My opinion is that the proposal was so ridiculous that it could have been denied based on common sense.  

When I began tournament fishing I jumped on the fishing for spawning fish is evil bandwagon.

However, after reading about a study done by Dr. George W. Bennett, chief of the Aquatic Biology Section of the Illinois Natural History Survey in Urbana my opinion has changed.

 

Not all scientists have the access to a controlled lake where they can study bass in the same way that he had done.

Now his studies were from the 40's to the 60's but his results would be the same today.

It's a long but a very interesting and informative read.

 

https://www.si.com/vault/1963/08/19/595743/this-is-the-fish-you-cant-catch-too-many-of

 

*** also this study was in regards to largemouth***

 

 

[MickD]

3 hours ago, BassNJake said:

When I began tournament fishing I jumped on the fishing for spawning fish is evil bandwagon.

However, after reading about a study done by Dr. George W. Bennett, chief of the Aquatic Biology Section of the Illinois Natural History Survey in Urbana my opinion has changed.

 

Not all scientists have the access to a controlled lake where they can study bass in the same way that he had done.

Now his studies were from the 40's to the 60's but his results would be the same today.

It's a long but a very interesting and informative read.

 

https://www.si.com/vault/1963/08/19/595743/this-is-the-fish-you-cant-catch-too-many-of

 

*** also this study was in regards to largemouth***

 

 

I really don't see how a largemouth study of an eighteen acre lake has any relevance to Great Lakes Smallmouth fishing rules or practices.   Or smallmouth bass in any environment.  You just cannot extrapolate this study to any smallmouth waters of any size or location.  It is a very specific study of largemouth ponds.

[Paul Roberts]

.

[Paul Roberts]

On 2/13/2018 at 12:15 PM, BassNJake said:

When I began tournament fishing I jumped on the fishing for spawning fish is evil bandwagon.

However, after reading about a study done by Dr. George W. Bennett, chief of the Aquatic Biology Section of the Illinois Natural History Survey in Urbana my opinion has changed.

 

Not all scientists have the access to a controlled lake where they can study bass in the same way that he had done.

Now his studies were from the 40's to the 60's but his results would be the same today.

It's a long but a very interesting and informative read.

 

https://www.si.com/vault/1963/08/19/595743/this-is-the-fish-you-cant-catch-too-many-of

 

*** also this study was in regards to largemouth***

 

 

This was/is (still) an important read. However, I started to comment, but on the recruitment of large bass, which I think is what A-Jay was focused on, rather than on the effects of bed fishing.