Enormous size differences.

[geo g]

5 minutes ago, Turtle135 said:

with an intergrade zone existing in North Florida and Georgia

No, not without man's help. 150 mile separation.  After 1955 they could be anywhere they can survive the environment.

 

2 minutes ago, Turtle135 said:

so you believe that Perry's fish was a pure Northern Strain Largemouth (or that Perry's fish was a fabrication)?

 

I have already clearly explained my position on Perry's bass!

[bigbill]

You talk about trout being on the diet of bass. There’s a small upper lake that’s stocked well with trout. But I don’t see many trout being caught. One day I seen a big swirl in the water made by a big fish turning. My guess is it’s a great northern pike. The stream that feeds this lake is connected to a lake that has great northern pike in it. This pike is eating most of the trout. No one has any clue what’s going on. Lol.

[Catt]

There's a lot of talk going on assuming where there was or wasn't Florida Strain Largemouth bass in 1932. 

 

@WRB back in the 50s & even into the 60s I remember my dad & uncles who were contractors building homes on nothing but a hand shack, no contract, no team of lawyers. A person's word was binding in a court of law...not so much today!

 

No one from Perry's community or Field & Stream has ever given any indication fraud.

 

As for Dottie her genetics are there but that doesn't mean her offspring with attain 25 lbs.

 

[WRB]

54 minutes ago, geo g said:

The comment was made because someone indicated that Perry fish was Florida Strain and that's not the case.  No imports in 1932, and no exit from Florida until 1955, well after Perry's catch.

Just one more factor that points to the Perry may have never existed. Anglers move fish around all the time that don't get recorded, no way to know when pure FLMB have been transplanted. None of my bass exceeded 28 1/2" long. The Kurita bass from Japan 22.31 lbs was 29" long, Dottie the Dixon bass from So Cal weighed 25.1 lbs the last time shell caught and 29" long. Perry's bass was reported to be 32" long, however know one knows how the measurements were made or what was used.

You could go to Perry's lake but it's been a meadow for over 30 years, happens to shallow oxbow lakes without a water source, not a eccosystem that could grow a giant bass.

Tom

 

 

[WRB]

47 minutes ago, Catt said:

There's a lot of talk going on assuming where there was or wasn't Florida Strain Largemouth bass in 1932. 

 

@WRB back in the 50s & even into the 60s I remember my dad & uncles who were contractors building homes on nothing but a hand shack, no contract, no team of lawyers. A person's word was binding in a court of law...not so much today!

 

No one from Perry's community or Field & Stream has ever given any indication fraud.

 

As for Dottie her genetics are there but that doesn't mean her offspring with attain 25 lbs.

 

I don't believe submitting a form for a fishing magazine contest to win a few lures as fraud. Perry had no way of knowing his catch submitted would become listed nearly 20 years later as the world record LMB. Perry avoid being interviewed and never tried to exploit the fact he was a world record holder of one the most prestigious fish.

The only thing most folks had during the Great Depression was thier word and everyone says George Perry was an honest man. Was Perry's bass an exaggeration? We way never know.

Tom

[Catt]

37 minutes ago, WRB said:

Perry's bass was reported to be 32" long, however know one knows how the measurements were made or what was used.

 

 

 

[J Francho]

I just want to comment on the no bass leaving Florida (or anywhere else, for that matter) is totally untrue.  We've been transplanting fish since the 1800's.  Just because it wasn't a government body conducting the activity doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Do a little research, and you can find photos depicting fish being shipped alive via rail in milk barrels.  It's entirely possible FLMB were transplanted by 1932.

[Hawkeye21]

9 hours ago, bigbill said:

You talk about trout being on the diet of bass. There’s a small upper lake that’s stocked well with trout. But I don’t see many trout being caught. One day I seen a big swirl in the water made by a big fish turning. My guess is it’s a great northern pike. The stream that feeds this lake is connected to a lake that has great northern pike in it. This pike is eating most of the trout. No one has any clue what’s going on. Lol.

One of the big differences between having a bass lake stocked with trout in northern states compared to southern states it that the weather has a big affect.  Trout prefer cold water and are more active in it that bass.  When the weather gets cold in the north the bass slow down but the trout do not.  This affects the growth of bass.  In the south the water stays warm all year and trout are slower in warm water while bass are more aggressive.  Eating trout is much easier for bass in warmer water.  

 

A diet of trout is not the key factor is growing large bass but can be a part of it.  Climate is a big factor and like it has been said before, genetics is important.

[TnRiver46]

17 hours ago, Turtle135 said:

I believe there are Florida Strain largemouth in Georgia. There was well documented 17.60 pound largemouth caught in 2015 and back in 1987 there was an 18 pound 1 ounce bass.

 

Below is the Georgia Top 10 that I can find on the internet. Considering the sizes I would expect these bass have Florida Strain genes.

 

 

16 lbs in chatuge??? Wow

[geo g]

The information came from the FWC no Florida Strain exports until 1955, whether you want to believe it or not!

[J Francho]

The FWC wans't formed until 1999.  Dig a little deeper.  We've been transplanting fish for 200 years.  How would they know who privately moved what species?  No one even recognized "Florida Strain" bass until relatively recently.  Do a little research, it's fairly well documented.

Here's an official US government project.  1873.  So, anyone stiull think fish weren't moved before that?

 

 

[Catt]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://fishlab.nres.illinois.edu/Reprints/Long_et_al_History_Bass.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiYmdKDz9_YAhVNRqwKHUGEA2UQFjAAegQIExAB&usg=AOvVaw2L_5yKBOES-5VzOy9m_dv4

[Turtle135]

36 minutes ago, Catt said:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://fishlab.nres.illinois.edu/Reprints/Long_et_al_History_Bass.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiYmdKDz9_YAhVNRqwKHUGEA2UQFjAAegQIExAB&usg=AOvVaw2L_5yKBOES-5VzOy9m_dv4

Very intertesting little note in that document! Intergrades, aka: hybrids again!

 

Ironically, the bass shipped to California in 1959 and stocked into San Diego County reservoirs came from Florida’s Blackwater (Holt) State Fish Hatchery (Pensacola, Florida), a hatchery that we realize with hindsight used only intergrade bass as broodfish during that time period.

[WRB]

Thank you Catt, good data.

The generalized statement that Florida strain LMB fingerlings were stocked into Lower Otay is true. The details are; the fingerlings were stscked into holding ponds at the

Miramar lake dam building site. The juvenile bass were then moved to Upper Otay lake, closed to the public, during the filling of Miramar lake. Lower Otay lake was stocked with young adult size FLMB from Upper Otay. Larry Botrhoff was the biologist, Larry Brown the city lakes manager, Orville Ball the supervised.

Miramar was never stocked with bass it was intended to be a public trout lake, the Flodia bass were hold overs that escaped from the holding ponds when the lake filled. 

The Zimmerlee 20 lb 15 oz bass caught in 1973 was from the original fingerlings in the Miramar holding ponds and surprised everyone. The Zimmerlee bass was actually on the surface dying when it was "caught"!

The original Florida and world record LMB was caught in 1923 weighed 20 lbs 2 oz according to the Fiels & Stream contest winner Fritz Friebel and caught from Big Fish lake central Florida. Florida didn't grandfather the Friebel bass due to no proof to authenticate the catch. Several 19 lb bass were also removed for the same reason, no way to authenticate old catches without photos or witness statements. The longest bass recorded caught from Florida was reported to 33" weighing 14 lbs, all other bass recorded are less than 28". You can make judgement about a 33" 14 lb bass. Interesting list is the top 25 Florida LMB list that has a 37" 24 lb bass. Field & Stream claims the top 3 was the Perry bass 22 1/4 lbs, Friebel @20lbs 2 oz and a 19lb 8 bass from Tarpon Lake.

Most bass anglers are very are unwilling to disclose where they catch big bass keeping the location a secret or naming a another lake to protect the lake. This may have happen with thecPerry bass for example. Montgomery oxbow lake was too shallow, too small and without spring water or a souce other then rain or River seepage to prevent from drying up by 1960. 

Tom

[BassObsessed]

27 minutes ago, WRB said:

Thank you Catt, good data.

The generalized statement that Florida strain LMB fingerlings were stocked into Lower Otay is true. The details are; the fingerlings were stscked into holding ponds at the

Miramar lake dam building site. The juvenile bass were then moved to Upper Otay lake, closed to the public, during the filling of Miramar lake. Lower Otay lake was stocked with young adult size FLMB from Upper Otay. Larry Botrhoff was the biologist, Larry Brown the city lakes manager, Orville Ball the supervised.

Miramar was never stocked with bass it was intended to be a public trout lake, the Flodia bass were hold overs that escaped from the holding ponds when the lake filled. 

The Zimmerlee 20 lb 15 oz bass caught in 1973 was from the original fingerlings in the Miramar holding ponds and surprised everyone. The Zimmerlee bass was actually on the surface dying when it was "caught"!

The original Florida record LMB was caught in 1923 weighed 20 lbs 2 oz according to the Fiels & Stream contest winner Fritz and caught from Big Fish lake central Florida. Florida didn't grandfather the Fritz bass due to no proof to authenticate the catch. Several 19 lb bass were also removed for the same reason, no way to authenticate old catches without photos or witness statements. The longest bass recorded caught from Florida was reported to 33" weighing 14 lbs, all other bass recorded are less than 28". You can make judgement about a 33" 14 lb bass.

Most bass anglers are very are unwilling to disclose where they catch big bass keeping the location a secret or naming a another lake to protect the lake. This may have happen with thecPerry bass for example. Montgomery oxbow lake was too shallow, too small and without spring water or a souce other then rain or River seepage to prevent from drying up by 1960. 

Tom

There was a claim here locally that an 11lb bass that measured 33'' was caught last year. So many red flags on that ordeal.The main one was the length..You know that bass would have looked like a barrcuda at that length.

[OCdockskipper]

57 minutes ago, WRB said:

...You can make judgement about a 33" 14 lb bass...

 

I would say a 33", 14 lb bass is actually a pickerel... 

[geo g]

1 hour ago, Turtle135 said:

Very intertesting little note in that document! Intergrades, aka: hybrids again!

 

Ironically, the bass shipped to California in 1959 and stocked into San Diego County reservoirs came from Florida’s Blackwater (Holt) State Fish Hatchery (Pensacola, Florida), a hatchery that we realize with hindsight used only intergrade bass as broodfish during that time period.

That was a great read!    Page 109,  supports the date of late 1950's for the first organized movement of Florida Strain out of their native territory and to other states.  Thank you for the read, I love this stuff! 

[J Francho]

Key word...organized.  Agreed, very interesting.

[Catt]

Oh I'm far from done ?

 

Like @J Francho stated y'all need to do some research!

 

Black bass are native to North America, east of the Rocky Mountains, but have been transplanted widely beginning with the actions of “public-spirited individuals” (Henshall 1881) and later by government entities at all levels (county, state, and federal).

 

Largemouth Bass plantings were sanctioned by government actions beginning in 1871 and by 1900 were found in all conterminous states of the United States and several other countries (e.g., Austria, Finland, France, Italy, Mexico, and Poland).

 

Smallmouth Bass had been stocked outside their native range by private individuals beginning in least 1842 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974), by state fisheries commissions beginning circa 1870 (Milner 1874), and by the U.S. Fisheries Commission in 1892 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974). Except for Florida and Louisiana, Smallmouth Bass were known to occur in all U.S. states and several other countries (e.g., Brazil, Belgium, Germany, France, 
and Sweden) by 1916 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974).

 

During a time frame from 1800-1850 only 4 species were known largemouth, smallmouth, Florida, & spotted: these 4 being transplanted worldwide...as a food source!

 

[WRB]

4 hours ago, Turtle135 said:

Very intertesting little note in that document! Intergrades, aka: hybrids again!

 

Ironically, the bass shipped to California in 1959 and stocked into San Diego County reservoirs came from Florida’s Blackwater (Holt) State Fish Hatchery (Pensacola, Florida), a hatchery that we realize with hindsight used only intergrade bass as broodfish during that time period.

I don't doubt that shipments to California came from the Pensacula area, however the man who initially started the Florida bass program Orville Ball told me back in 1985, when I was researching an article, that the first Florida bass shipped came from Cypress Springs and were put into the Miramar ponds and Larry Bothroff confirmed that. Larry always referred to the initial bass as pure Florida strain. Larry also mentioned the lake Hodges was the only San Diego city lake stocked with pure FLMB as Upper Otay had a population of northern strain LMB that intergrade/ spawn with the FLMB.

The lake Hodges dam was renovated and everything killed before refilling  and stocked with Bluegill, crappie, threadfin Shad and FLMB, no NLMB for study purposes. All the other city lakes has NLMB populations when they were stocked with FLMB. It's likely that Upper Otay did receive bass from the Pensacola hatchery, I never asked that question.

Tom

[Catt]

Apparently y'all didn't follow the link provided or down load all the PFD files given.

[Chowderhead]

 The Zimmerlee bass was actually on the surface dying when it was "caught"!

 

that is a story I would love to know more about. 

[Deleted account]

15 hours ago, J Francho said:

Key word...organized.  Agreed, very interesting.

Very shortly after the railroads came into wide use, and long before most regulations, it apparently became a good idea to transport all sorts of live fish around the country. 

[J Francho]

8 hours ago, Catt said:

Apparently y'all didn't follow the link provided or down load all the PFD files given.

I skipped the last 8 pages of references, though I may dig into that later.  Some may be worth googling.

[soflabasser]

On 1/17/2018 at 4:23 PM, Catt said:

Smallmouth Bass had been stocked outside their native range by private individuals beginning in least 1842 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974), by state fisheries commissions beginning circa 1870 (Milner 1874), and by the U.S. Fisheries Commission in 1892 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974). Except for Florida and Louisiana, Smallmouth Bass were known to occur in all U.S. states and several other countries (e.g., Brazil, Belgium, Germany, France, 
and Sweden) by 1916 (Robbins and MacCrimmon 1974).

 

Smallmouth bass where stocked in North Florida in the early 1900's. They where stocked in several North Florida rivers such as the Suwannee and Chipola rivers.