Enormous size differences.

[Chowderhead]

13 hours ago, reason said:

Very shortly after the railroads came into wide use, and long before most regulations, it apparently became a good idea to transport all sorts of live fish around the country. 

As well as export.  In "Book of the Black Bass," the author (Dr. Henshall) devotes a chapter about the transportation and stocking of Black Bass both in the US and overseas.  The book was published in 1881. Reading it now.

 

https://archive.org/details/bookofblackbass00hens

 

***I see that Catt (and others) have already referenced this point. Sorry for missing it.***

[Deleted account]

30 minutes ago, Chowderhead said:

As well as export.  In "Book of the Black Bass," the author (Dr. Henshall) devotes a chapter about the transportation and stocking of Black Bass both in the US and overseas.  The book was published in 1881. Reading it now.

 

https://archive.org/details/bookofblackbass00hens

 

***I see that Catt (and others) have already referenced this point. Sorry for missing it.***

When reading pubs from these periods, keep in mind that sport angling (as well as most other activities of leisure) were primarily in the realm of the well to do. Normal folk for the most part didn't have the time and or means to participate on a regular basis. This began to change after the turn of the century, but was halted by the depression and WW II. Fishing (and hunting) was seen as much as a way to procure food as sport. And then the GIs brought back the inline spinner and some Finnish guy got a pocket knife for Christmas...

[WRB]

The OP's original question wasn't that far off. After the big bass explosion created by the Florida strain LMB transplanted to San Diego it spurred a rush in the 70's to plant the FLMB all across the country. Little was known about the low water temperature threshold issues and the bass were introduced into lakes they couldn't servive in and lakes without eccosystems to support growth. For every lake that had success 10 lakes failed. Keep in mind the FLMB program in San Diego city lakes was considered a failure to achieve it's original goal to improve the size of bass caught per man hour fished.

The FLMB / NLMB intergrades tend to combine the negative qualities of both strains, less aggressive and difficult to catch with slower growth rates.

Tom

[Catt]

"The F1 largemouth bass (often refered to as the "Tiger" bass) is a product of the aquaculture industry and is defined as the first generation cross between a Florida and Northern bass. The F1 largemouth bass is typically the strain of choice for stocking new ponds because it displays favorable characteristics of both parental strains: the growth potential of the Florida strain and the aggressiveness of the Northern strain."

 

Sounds like high growth rates & easy to catch

 

http://sepond.com/fish-stocking/largemouth-bass

 

[Team9nine]

6 hours ago, Catt said:

"The F1 largemouth bass (often refered to as the "Tiger" bass) is a product of the aquaculture industry and is defined as the first generation cross between a Florida and Northern bass. The F1 largemouth bass is typically the strain of choice for stocking new ponds because it displays favorable characteristics of both parental strains: the growth potential of the Florida strain and the aggressiveness of the Northern strain."

 

Sounds like high growth rates & easy to catch

 

http://sepond.com/fish-stocking/largemouth-bass

 

We're starting to get terms defined multiple ways here (sound familiar?). "Tiger bass" is a trademarked name, and legally can only be used to refer to that companies specific bass. They specifically bred an aggressive strain of NLMB and then crossed with large (13#) FLMB to produce the Tiger bass, a fish with the aggressive characteristics of northerns and the growth potential of Florida's. They are basically a "designer" fish, and as such, they are different than what occurred in California, and your sepond reference is not 100% accurate.

[Catt]

1 hour ago, Team9nine said:

We're starting to get terms defined multiple ways here (sound familiar?). "Tiger bass" is a trademarked name, and legally can only be used to refer to that companies specific bass. They specifically bred an aggressive strain of NLMB and then crossed with large (13#) FLMB to produce the Tiger bass, a fish with the aggressive characteristics of northerns and the growth potential of Florida's. They are basically a "designer" fish, and as such, they are different than what occurred in California, and your sepond reference is not 100% accurate.

That's not my definition but that of the people who created the Tiger/F1/Gorilla bass click on the link.

 

 

[Team9nine]

40 minutes ago, Catt said:

That's not my definition but that of the people who created the Tiger/F1/Gorilla bass click on the link.

 

 

Southeastern Pond Management didn't create the Tiger Bass, American Sport Fish did (both are in AL). The company in your link is trying to capitalize on the name Tiger Bass by saying it generally references any NLMB/FLMB cross, of which they are incorrect. Tiger Bass is a registered trademark, so only the owners, or people licensing the name from the owners, could legally use the term for their sales. Check out the American Sport Fish website where they tell you they are the only hatchery licensed to produce and sell Tiger Bass.

 

They also mention that the Perry bass is thought to be a northern/Florida intergrade (a hybrid cross), with which other experts agree.

[BassNJake]

Included the link to save time from searching

 

http://americansportfish.com/articles/37-tracking-the-tiger-tiger-bass-and-their-growth-in-the-southeast

[gobig]

On 1/16/2018 at 5:46 AM, MTBassin said:

I just watched a video on the TacticalBassin YT channel and  Matt Allen said that the main lake he fishes in California (Clear Lake) in California has very very few trout in it. It's not so much that the bass are keying in on those big swimbaits because they want to eat a trout and that they are used to trout as a food source. Its more because it is a big slow moving bait that just happens to be painted in a color pattern that catches their attention and looks like an easy meal. 

There only a few trout that make it into clearlake from high run off in the mountains but there are hitch. Most of the hitch I have seen are between 4in and 14in. Since the shad population has boomed again the big bait bite has dramatically decreased. 

[Catt]

@Team9nine I'm very aware of both companies & have been working with both companies planting bass in private ponds & marshes here.

 

Southeastern Pond Management is licensed to use the name, I've sat with their personal & reviewed their paperwork.

 

If ya got problems with them feel free to contact them & correct them.

[gobig]

I think that genetics are a huge factor. But even with good genetics fish can only grow to there environment. I don't buy into the idea that trout or kokanee have no roll. The spotted bass have blown up over the last several years with the kokanee programs. Before the kokanee 12lbs would win a tournament. Now it can take as much as 30lbs to win. I don't think we are done seeing the spotted bass record being broke. I think it will top out in the 14lb range.

[ratherbfishin1]

I’ve heard it also depends on how bad the winters are. In Florida the winters are really mild(except for this year) but in Nebraska where I live they don’t get as big because it gets cold and so they aren’t growing year round. That’s just what I heard I don’t know if that’s true so if it’s not someone please correct me

[WRB]

The today with Florida largemouth bass living in Florida during the last 75+ years may no longer be "pure" Florida strain LMB. As pointed out earlier the Florida strain LMB transplanted in California and Japan have questionable purity and could have been intergrades. How many generations of intergrades were these transplants? Largemouth bass F-1's can spawn with each other or with any other LMB in the wild. Does F1+ F1+ pure FLMB + F1+ Pure NLMB + F1 = F1? This is what occurs genetically in the wild and SoCal has 45 generations of F-1's.

Each generation differs in both growth rates, aggressiveness being an individual trait, males are usually more aggressive then females but only attain less then 1/2 the size.

I can tell you from decades of experience multiple generations of F-1's are less aggressive then NLMB and rarely exceed 12 lbs. we have very few NMLB lakes in SoCal, those few are easy to catch the aggressive bass then lakes with F1.

I believe 1st generation F-1's grow to be giants and know "pure" FLMB grow to be giants, beyond that is questionable.

If you study Gary Schwartz attemp to grow giant bass in La Perla lake F-1's ruined his efforts and he started over with Camelot-Bell.

Tom

[J Francho]

Resulting progeny of F1 x F1 would be F2.  Anything else is a new cross, and the generation label would be F1, though that designation is always referred to in a controlled environment, not in the wild.  You can't really control what the fish do in the wild, so unless each generation is in a controlled environment, it's genetic heritage will always be in question.

[Team9nine]

33 minutes ago, Catt said:

@Team9nine I'm very aware of both companies & have been working with both companies planting bass in private ponds & marshes here.

 

Southeastern Pond Management is licensed to use the name, I've sat with their personal & reviewed their paperwork.

 

If ya got problems with them feel free to contact them & correct them.

No problems here...That's exactly what I said - they'd have to be licensing the name Tiger Bass to legally be able to sell them under that monicker. 

[WRB]

15 minutes ago, J Francho said:

Resulting progeny of F1 x F1 would be F2.  Anything else is a new cross, and the generation label would be F1, though that designation is always referred to in a controlled environment, not in the wild.  You can't really control what the fish do in the wild, so unless each generation is in a controlled environment, it's genetic heritage will always be in question.

So in my random example the answer = F1, proving my point that F1 are not equal and could also be a small male F1 that will never grow to be a trophy size bass.

Tom

 

 

 

[Catt]

14 minutes ago, Team9nine said:

No problems here...That's exactly what I said - they'd have to be licensing the name Tiger Bass to legally be able to sell them under that monicker. 

 

Google Grosse Savanne 

 

There's another marsh twice if not three times as big being built as we speak. My name is on Mike Duhon's (builder/head guide) short list of guides. This marsh was stocked by American Sport Fish 16 months ago. 

 

Kinda excited to get to start fishing it in March ?

[J Francho]

Yes, Tom.  You got it.

[BassObsessed]

Maybe it was covered in this conversation but introducing f1's in the lake in texas was a mistake due to the fact that northern strain genetics are dominant and over time will limit the  potential of Florida strain genes.

[WRB]

Texas controls the breeding by using both large males and 13lb+ females bass in the Share a Lunker program to stock lakes. California make no effort to replenish the Floridsa strain or northern strains of LMB and haven't stocked a lake beyond the initial stocking of a lake. All the FLMB in California, to the best of my knowledge, are the 1959 bass from Florida and that strain, with few exceptions, was stocked into lakes that had existing NLMB populations. 2 exceptions I know of are Hodges and Diamond Valley. Upper Otay was the source lake for most if not all FLMB in California during the 70's.

When you consider growth rates, Lake Isabella in central CA was stocked with FLMB in 1977, Keith Harper caught a 18 lb. 15 oz lake record FLMB in 1984, 7 year old bass!

Lakes Castiac and Casitas were stocked in 1973, the Castias lake record Ray Easly's 21 lb 3 oz bass caught in 1981, 9 year old bass. FLMB live about 15 years in California and that is why we thought a world record bass was living here. Unfortunitly Dottie was caught illegally. The one thing California lakes have in common is they are deep structured lakes with drinking quality water that are subjected to severe water level changes that cause fluctuating prey populations and unsuccessful recruitment year classes, plus extreme fishing pressure.

Tom

[WRB]

4 hours ago, Catt said:

 

Google Grosse Savanne 

 

There's another marsh twice if not three times as big being built as we speak. My name is on Mike Duhon's (builder/head guide) short list of guides. This marsh was stocked by American Sport Fish 16 months ago. 

 

Kinda excited to get to start fishing it in March ?

Zona and Hackney did a show on Grosse Savanne last year, looks like a duck club with good bass fishing.

Tom

[12poundbass]

1 hour ago, WRB said:

Zona and Hackney did a show on Grosse Savanne last year, looks like a duck club with good bass fishing.

Tom

They charge the price of a good duck club too.

[Catt]

7 hours ago, WRB said:

Zona and Hackney did a show on Grosse Savanne last year, looks like a duck club with good bass fishing.

Tom

 

5 hours ago, 12poundbass said:

They charge the price of a good duck club too.

 

Ducks make more money than bass ?

 

This new marsh will be geared towards bass fishing similar to what Black Lake Marsh & Lake of The Gum Coves before Rita & Ike took em out.

[WRB]

I don't intend to beat the F1 topic to death but I do question the designation.

Mike Giusti the fishery biologist who was in charge of Diamond Valley lake fishery told me the  FLMB being stocked in 1998 were F3-5's, I assume 35th generation Florida strain? DVL lake record FLMB is 16.43 lb caught 2009 by Mike Long, high hopes for 20 lb bass that never developed do to stripe bass population in my opinion.

I will try to contact Mike for clarity, he retired a few years ago.

Tom

[BASS302]

@WRB,

I read somewhere that the DVL FLMB were from Lake Hodges.  Is that true?  I thought that most of the stockings of FLMB in CA came from the FLMB in Upper Otay lake.