Enormous size differences.

[WRB]

I mentioned my PB northern strain LMB is 12 lbs 4 oz that has genes from LMB transplanted from Minnesota, no FLMB genes. Could this 12 lb bass grow that big on MN ?

Yes, if the lived in a steam generating power plant lake that kept the water warm enough to feed and grow year around. Several states with only NLMB gave records 12 to 16 lbs.

It wasn’t known that Florida strain LMB would grow to giant size until California proved it.

Tom

 

[12poundbass]

1 hour ago, WRB said:

I mentioned my PB northern strain LMB is 12 lbs 4 oz that has genes from LMB transplanted from Minnesota, no FLMB genes. Could this 12 lb bass grow that big on MN ?

Yes, if the lived in a steam generating power plant lake that kept the water warm enough to feed and grow year around. Several states with only NLMB gave records 12 to 16 lbs.

It wasn’t known that Florida strain LMB would grow to giant size until California proved it.

Tom

 

So then we agree that environment can and will play a role in determining size? 

[WRB]

23 minutes ago, 12poundbass said:

So then we agree that environment can and will play a role in determining size? 

Yes the environment plays a big role on the eccosystem, it allows animals, including fish, to thrive or starve depending on if it's positive or a negative influence. Everything being equal genetics play a major role for Black bass to attain maximum record weights.

Smallmouth may never attain growth over 12 lbs do to it's genes, Northern strain LMB may never exceed 17 lbs do to thier genes, we know FLMB can achieve 25 lbs because of thier genes and optimal eccosystem.

Regarding Goerge Perry's 22 1/4 lb world record LMB caught in 1932 there has never been a photo found of George holding his bass, no proof of this catch and everything has been taken on his word. The eccosystem of a small oxbow isolated lake simply doesn't have the prey source to grow a giant bass. It is what it is an long time established record that has now been exceeded by a FLMB that has gone through close examination with lots of proof of it's weight authenticed.

Tom

[12poundbass]

19 hours ago, WRB said:

It's all about genetics.

I'm glad we can agree now because your comments yesterday left me scrathing my head. 

[J Francho]

Genetics, food source, environment, which includes water quality.  A long growing season sure helps too.

[Glenn]

How do bass become trophy size? How long do bass live? Does keeping a big bass harm the fishery? Can 100% catch and release be worse than keeping a few? Can bass spawn more than once per year? These questions and more are answered by the nation's top warmwater lake manager, Bob Lusk, in this video.

 

 

[Paul Roberts]

Great stuff above. Genetics, food, growing season, and age all play roles. FOOD may be the one least understood or, better, appreciated for the sheer amount and quality of it required. The amount of food of the right composition and size required to grow small fish into huge fish is almost mind-boggling. And it's something that is extremely rare in nature, and darn hard to accomplish in managed waters.

 

Growing season plays an enormous role not only in the the duration of growth periods for bass but, more importantly, in the sheer amount of prey fishes a given water can produce. Southern waters commonly produce multiple broods of prey fishes, while northern waters rarely do. All are important but the best genetics, clean water, and age structure will go nowhere without one heck of a lot of food of the right composition and size for bass from fingerling through... monster.

 

As to the genetics part, genes are potential, heavily influenced by the environment. There's a point in every fish's life where they must "choose" whether to chase pounds or gametes. All choose both, however, the environment makes that choice for them. A dead bass does not contribute to the future. If there is not enough appropriate food to go around, bass will mature -start developing costly gametes- at 10" in length, and still "win the game".

 

 

[BassObsessed]

I agree that there are many variables that need to happen . It may be covered in the video , haven't watched it yet, that big bass need crazy amounts of food just to maintain let alone grow. 10lbs of forage for 1 lb of weight gain is some theories Iv'e heard. I manage a small pond and know how much forage I need to make sure is available to try to grow big bass. Another private pond I fish is loaded with 1lbers. It wrote the book on stunted bass. 10 acres and depths up to 30ft  with super clear water which is great but the forage ratio is out of whack.

[geo g]

I agree with everything said in the previous post, for the normal bass population.  But all throughout time, there have been isolated freaks of nature, that don't follow the normal standards set forth by the normal population.  This is something that occurs from malfunctioning glands in the body.  Humans and every other living organism have been subject to abnormal giant syndrome.  The Perry bass could be an example of this condition, and most likely a northern strain gone supersized.   This is something not found in the normal population, but a rare malfunction.  I happens in humans, and all other living organisms.  It is very rare, and the Perry fish could very well be a product of this condition.  It was not caused by genes, food supply, environment or any other factor other then a hyperactive bodily function found only in these freaks of nature.  That is why we have 7'6" Chinese basketball players, 7' women conceived from normal size parents,  Bears that almost double the normal adult size and weight, ancient human skeleton that are way off the charts.  It is a something that is rare, but happens.  The Perry bass is probably a northern freak of nature, and that's why the record stood as long as it did. 

 

Now can scientists and biologists recreate fish the size of this record freak.  The answer is yes, and have been doing it for years, by transporting genetic big fish, like Florida bass.  Feeding them a rick food supply of farm raised fish, that have no natural fear of predatory bass, and putting them in a restricted catch and release environment.  These immigrant imports will grow to record size.  Is this normal, NO.  Can science do more to stimulate growth YES, but is this normal NO! 

 

The Perry fish was not a transport, was not a Florida Strain, was not spoon feed trout or crayfish, and was out there making a living for its own, with no help from science or anything else.  If it was anything, it was a freak of nature, and nothing else!  It was a legit record fish, all others are simply engineered!

[J Francho]

I don't believe the Perry fish was that big.  Every record fish is a freak of nature, and there is some mitigating set of circumstances, or perfect storm for the fish to get huge.  Triploid rainbow trout dwarfing western sea run steelhead is just one example. 

[Turtle135]

I believe there are Florida Strain largemouth in Georgia. There was well documented 17.60 pound largemouth caught in 2015 and back in 1987 there was an 18 pound 1 ounce bass.

 

Below is the Georgia Top 10 that I can find on the internet. Considering the sizes I would expect these bass have Florida Strain genes.

 

 

[Catt]

What is being missed about the Perry bass is that it was 1932!!!!!

 

How many cameras existed in 1932 in a small rural community?

My father-in-law was a professional photographer in the 40-60s & in his opinion there might have been 1 maybe 2. 

 

The bass was weighed but not on certified scales, in 1932 in rural Georgia what or who would require anyone to certify anything?

 

It is said that Montgomery lake could not support a fish of that size but what biologist was present in 1932 made that evaluation?

 

Having grown up during the 50s in rural Louisiana I can guarantee y'all it would very hard certifying any to the degree anglers have asked of the Perry bass.

[geo g]

Florida Strain bass are not found that far north naturally.  FWC said no fish were exported until 1955 well after Perry's fish was caught.  Perry fish was big, and a freak of nature.  Freaks of nature happen and are rare in all life forms.  In recent years it is impossible to tell where people have taken the greatest bass population, The Florida Strain.  But not in 1932!!!!!!  That fish was a freak and always will be the greatest naturally occurring fish caught without human interference.

[gim]

Earlier in this thread, someone brought up trout as a food source.  Trouts are indeed a high fat and protein diet, so predatory game fish eating them regularly will get more out of it than eating something else.  The same has been documented up here in the north with lakes that have ciscoes/tulibees and muskies.

[WRB]

2 hours ago, Catt said:

What is being missed about the Perry bass is that it was 1932!!!!!

 

How many cameras existed in 1932 in a small rural community?

My father-in-law was a professional photographer in the 40-60s & in his opinion there might have been 1 maybe 2. 

 

The bass was weighed but not on certified scales, in 1932 in rural Georgia what or who would require anyone to certify anything?

 

It is said that Montgomery lake could not support a fish of that size but what biologist was present in 1932 made that evaluation?

 

Having grown up during the 50s in rural Louisiana I can guarantee y'all it would very hard certifying any to the degree anglers have asked of the Perry bass.

Catt, Perry said he had a photo of his bass and sent a photo to Field & Stream magazine  bass contest along with the weight recorded on a 100 lb postal scale along with length and girth measurements. The IGFA didn't have fresh water world records for bass until 1951 and grandfathered the Perry bass as the world record based on the Field & Stream 1932 contest winner George Perry. Perry wasn't looking for recognition, he just wanted to win fishing tackle and avoided talking about his catch. Perry did an interview with B.A.S.S. before he died in a plane crash. Just have to accept the catch on face value, it has been the standard until 2009, there isn't any doubt about the Kurita world record 22.31 lbs bass from Japan. If Dottie wasn't snagged the world record would 25.1 lbs from California.

Tom

[Turtle135]

3 hours ago, geo g said:

Florida Strain bass are not found that far north naturally.  FWC said no fish were exported until 1955 well after Perry's fish was caught.

IMHO we call them "Florida Strain" but those genetics know no state boundaries. If my intel is correct the panhandle of Florida is where the true monsters thrive. Further south in FL the waters are too hot. The bass grow at a rapid rate but die young. Northern Florida, Southern Alabama and Southern Georgia are the original land of the giants.

[bigbill]

It’s been said that Perry caught a second bigger bass after the record breaker and they ate it.

 

my PB of 10lbs isn’t a freak, I’ve seen and lost bigger bass. One hot spot is fed from a big lake it gets the run off. It’s a man made dam that captures the run off and fish. It’s a very healthy eco system. Farther down stream is another dam and a larger body of water.

 

its not the smaller bass that are keeping the bass population numbers up.

 

the local game wardens with there electric shock boat can only operate in 25/30 feet of water so there not seeing these bigger gals.

 

i say we have bigger bass in every body of water, there not being caught.

from shore I’m so stealthy it’s like I’m not there. Walk lightly, make no noise, close the car door quietly, handle your tackle so there’s no noise. I use a spinning reel so there’s no click when the baitcaster spool locks in after a cast. I open and close the spinning reel nail by hand softly. No noise, do not talk to yourself, keep your one battery flashlight in the roof of your tacklebox. Do not let the glare hit the water. If you practice all of this it will become second nature. Being stealthy is the key to catching a bigger gal near the shoreline.

 

if you flash the light in the water near the shoreline you will see freshwater eels. I think this is what the bass are after. They are a dark brownish color.

 

i mentioned bigger bass on a ct website and got slammed for it. All of a sudden some members started catching 9 to 11lb bass. Trust me they are out there.

 

the bass aren’t native to out area. Years ago we had a bass hatchery. The hatchery is shut down but some bass are still there. My point is I’m not sure what strain of bass they used.

 

what scares me is I see freshwater otters at twilit before dawn everywhere I fish. I can picture in my mind an otter eating a new state record.

[geo g]

34 minutes ago, Turtle135 said:

IMHO we call them "Florida Strain" but those genetics know no state boundaries. If my intel is correct the panhandle of Florida is where the true monsters thrive. Further south in FL the waters are too hot. The bass grow at a rapid rate but die young. Northern Florida, Southern Alabama and Southern Georgia are the original land of the giants.

I would check your intel on Florida Strain Bass.  Trained Biological experts, and not Bubba in the boat.

[WRB]

23 minutes ago, geo g said:

I would check your intel on Florida Strain Bass.  Trained Biological experts, and not Bubba in the boat.

Larry Bothroff is was my primary source of information and he is the fishery biologist who managed the Diego City Florida bass program that Orville Ball initiated from 1959 to 1999 when he retired.

The pure Florida strain LMB transported to California were from Cypress Garden Springs area of central Florida, not northern Florida.

If you are so knowledgeable go out and catch a few giant bass, my bench mark is 15 lbs and to date I have caught 58 over a 45 year period of catching and studying these special rare bass.

Tom

[OCdockskipper]

4 hours ago, geo g said:

  ...Freaks of nature happen and are rare in all life forms...

 

I would suggest that Dottie was one of those freaks.  Not only did she attain a weight over 10% larger than any other LMB ever caught, she did it even though she was caught multiple times.  She shook off the stress of being landed as a giant multiple times and continued to grow.

 

Obviously, Dotties genetics are still in Lake Dixon, yet another 20 lb fish has not been caught there.  She had the genetics to get to 25 lbs, but may have only made it that big due to being a freak.

[Turtle135]

8 minutes ago, geo g said:

I would check your intel on Florida Strain Bass.  Trained Biological experts, and not Bubba in the boat.

back to the concept of "Hybrid Vigor"...

 

"Florida Largemouth Bass distribution was supposedly restricted to systems south of the Suwannee River in the Florida peninsula, with an intergrade zone existing in North Florida and Georgia.  Due to their trophy value, Florida Bass and their hybrids with Largemouth Bass have been introduced throughout the Southern United States extending through most States from Florida to California.  Also introduced to every continent except Antarctica!  Relatively long lived, ranging from 10-16 years old.  Growth rates do vary with trophic state and habitat (vegetation).  Florida’s state record is 17.25lbs but a 20+lb fish has been documented and a 22.25lb individual was caught in Japan in 2009."

 

[geo g]

1 minute ago, Turtle135 said:

back to the concept of "Hybrid Vigor"...

 

"Florida Largemouth Bass distribution was supposedly restricted to systems south of the Suwannee River in the Florida peninsula, with an intergrade zone existing in North Florida and Georgia.  Due to their trophy value, Florida Bass and their hybrids with Largemouth Bass have been introduced throughout the Southern United States extending through most States from Florida to California.  Also introduced to every continent except Antarctica!  Relatively long lived, ranging from 10-16 years old.  Growth rates do vary with trophic state and habitat (vegetation).  Florida’s state record is 17.25lbs but a 20+lb fish has been documented and a 22.25lb individual was caught in Japan in 2009."

 

I agree with everything said in that post.  Perry fish was caught in 1932 and no Florida Strain there then.  The movement of Florida Strain began in 1955 according to FWC.  Florida strain are not native to Georgia.

[Turtle135]

2 minutes ago, geo g said:

I agree with everything said in that post.  Perry fish was caught in 1932 and no Florida Strain there then.  The movement of Florida Strain began in 1955 according to FWC.  Florida strain are not native to Georgia.

with an intergrade zone existing in North Florida and Georgia

[geo g]

13 minutes ago, WRB said:

Larry Bothroff is was my primary source of information and he is the fishery biologist who managed the Diego City Florida bass program that Orville Ball initiated from 1959 to 1999 when he retired.

The pure Florida strain LMB transported to California were from Cypress Garden Springs area of central Florida, not northern Florida.

If you are so knowledgeable go out and catch a few giant bass, my bench mark is 15 lbs and to date I have caught 58 over a 45 year period of catching and studying these special rare bass.

Tom

The comment was made because someone indicated that Perry fish was Florida Strain and that's not the case.  No imports in 1932, and no exit from Florida until 1955, well after Perry's catch.

[Turtle135]

3 minutes ago, geo g said:

The comment was made because someone indicated that Perry fish was Florida Strain and that's not the case.  No imports in 1932, and no exit from Florida until 1955, well after Perry's catch.

so you believe that Perry's fish was a pure Northern Strain Largemouth (or that Perry's fish was a fabrication)?